Kerry was great as usual on the Today show and other places. I still can't believe this guy who is so classy and well spoken, lost to a incoherent, babbeling "Butt Clown" like George Bush.

Although after finding out that Ronald Reagan is "The greatest American" (as opposed to REAL leaders like Washington, Lincoln, FDR and JFK)well maybe I am not surprised that Bush won....apparently thier are mass stupid people voting in America.

I see that Dean is going to be on Hardball tonight. I hope he calls for the President to apologize to the nation for quoting bin Laden. Just when I thought Bush couldn't stoop any lower he uses bin Laden to support his invasion/occupation of Iraq. Imagine what the liberal media would do if a Democrat quoted bin Laden saying we should get out of Iraq!

I also hope to hear Dean remind Bush that the ground bin Laden occupies is the front on terror.

The American people have made the connection between the Iraqi occupation and Vietnam. No matter how much Rove and Bush try to tie this back to 9/11, the images we see on televison are clearly Vietnam vintage. It's deja vu all over again. It's a foreign entanglement just like Washington warned us never to get involved in.

This is one issue they can't frame. George Washington already had the final say.

We first need to get out of Bosnia! Its been about 5 years and we have no exit date, we have no plan, and it now looks like we are occupiers!

Second, we need a Congressional Hearing as to why the President turned down the offer of Sudan for giving us Osama Bin Laden. A taped conversation of the President screwing that one up could have saved us a lot of time.

I ask the Democratic leadership to pick up this point and hammer the Administration with it:

That to USE another country that had NOTHING TO DO with the war on terror is being used as "Terrorist Flypaper".

We are sacrificing 100's of thousands of Iraqi civilians to "lure the terrorists into Iraq."

This is absolutely dispicable and ought to be called out as a WAR CRIME.

The Administration's past excuses have all failed, so they think we are STUPID enough to buy this excuse, WHICH BTW is Internationally ILLEGAL!!!

Would the thousands who died at 9/11 and the thousands of soldiers who died want 100's of thousands of Iraqi civilians to die in our "Bug-zapper" excuse? Because that's all this is, just another lame excuse by the administration.

Why can't they just admit they started this war for greed. Check out this image that shows how the major stock indices of the corporations the Administration officials are heavily invested in have grown nearly 200% while the DOW has remained stagnant.

http://img176.echo.cx/img176/226/chrtsrv8de.gif

GREED is the REAL reason,... and the BLOOD OF INNOCENTS is what paid the price for that greed.

What is it? What is it that keeps people from seeing "The Truth"? September 11th was an attack on America by terrorist. The President (unlike previous administrations) decided that action had to be taken to prevent this from happening again by attacking terrorist and those who support them. Saddam Hussein and Iraq supported terrorist with financial assistance and allowing them a place to train. President Bush never stated that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11. Why is it so impossible for you people to see that? The only people that keep mentioning the two of them in the same sentence are Democrats. If a person gives money to Sen. Byrd's old alumni the KKK and they use that money to blow-up a church, even though he had nothing to do with the planning or the carrying out of the plan, is that person any less responsible?

Posted by thetruth on June 29, 2005 at 03:38 PM

"thetruth" is as ignorant as he is blind. guess the Repugs lead him to the voting machine and put his hand on the lever.

Stop the madness! I am appalled with all this rhetoric. Were you in the US on Sept. 11? I was and the world would be a lot different place if I were in charge. There would be a lot more dead people! They struck us on our soil. Am I missing something? You are free to leave this country at any time! All you people that question the attempts to protect our soil should spend a year or 2 in Afganastan. Then you might not take our freedom for granted. That is if you make it back.

willconinc:

Firstly, I don't think it a good thing if 'there would be a lot more dead people,' so don't bother lobbying for the votes of people with brains.

Secondly, this 'you are free to leave the country at any time' excrement is meaningless, as always.

Thirdly, all us people who 'question the attempt to protect our soil' are not in fact questioning the need to protect this country -- we just quesiton the need to do it in Iraq.

Fourthly, we are not taking our freedom for granted. Far from it. When that freedom is threatened we fight back. By the way, we are also EXERCISING that freedom right now. If that scares or offends you, then perhaps YOU should go somewhere else.

well it looks like those crooked republicans have done it again, they have no integrity, first for thetruth has infotrated the last place that the acctual truth is still spoken, secondly we need to be calling for President Bush's resignation and since it is going to be election year soon for members of the legislature we need to start writing to our state represenitives and senetors to start demanding not only that Bush appolagize to the country but that they open an investigation in to the Bush administration for criminal activity, this is the time when we can show our true strength because this is the time when republicans can be hurt the most,with the downing street memo now in the media we can call for the truth or prove that the republicans have something to hid. Bush's speech proves that the memo is hurting them by his blatent attemp to try to once again fasely link iraq to the 9/11.we must show resolve and push hard for an investigation and that there days are numbered. each time they refuse to let the truth be known the we show they have somthing to hide. One thing is for sure, this intrustion by the republicans should not go unpunished, they invaded us trying to push their lies onto us I say lets fight back and invade them at www.gopteamleader.com and expose the real truth to them, Bush has once again shown he has no morals, the Republicans have shown they have no morals, and now those who follow them have shown that not only do they have no moral but that they have no respect. Now is the time to fight back, elections time is when they are volnerable and the polls show they are slipping in the public eye, everytime they try to get away with there lies we nee to show the public that they are hidding the truth and keep asking the question, why refuse to investigate the validity of the downing street memo. we must do more than write letters to news papers and write on the blog but need to draw more media attention and make the public aware of the extent of corruption of the Republican party, if we speak up enough they can't keep ignoring us. I call all democrats wheather in office or regular citizens to do everything possible to force the media to hear us out.

9-11 and Iraq do NOT go together.

And neither do the 1993 WTC Bombing and Iraq (even though Bin Laden was behind the '93 Bombing as well as 9-11).

Quoted by TheUntruthful above:
"President Bush never stated that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11."
************************************
"We went to war because we were attacked." (By Iraq?)
The Shrub, June 18, 2005

"If we are successful in Iraq...we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."
"Don't Call Me a Dick" Cheney, Sept. 14, 2003

"The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on."
The Shrub, May 1, 2003

"It's been pretty well confirmed that he [Atta] did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack." (Both the FBI and Czech intelligence deny this.)
The Dick, Dec. 9, 2001

"There's overwhelming evidence there was a connection between al Qaeda and the Iraqi government." (Actually, the two distrusted each other, and had very different goals.)
The Dick, Jan. 22, 2004

There's a lot of interesting politicking going on in this move, and frankly I'm not surprised that they used the 9/11 frame again. If anybody has read George Lakoff's book "don't think of an elephant!", it will help you understand this (although personally I didn't think the book was very well written, it does have some good points).

Basically, Bush has a frame for the war on terrorism, and it's based on 9/11 and fighting for liberty. We were attacked at home, so we must seek out and destroy terrorism abroad. Since terrorism breeds in places that are totalitarian regimes, we need to tackle totalitarian regimes and bring freedom to them. For Bush, the two go hand in hand.

What's interesting is that nobody has really called him on this until now. The idea that freedom is "on the march" implies that freedom is something that is instilled by toppling regimes. If freedom marching implies liberation, then there wouldn't be an insurgency.

The fact is, Bush provoked war in Iraq by tying the war years ago to 9/11 and the war on terror. I read an interesting article that I'm not sure has been published yet or not, but it has carefully studied Bush's use of the words "Iraq" and "terorism" and "September 11" in sentences. And, unsurprisingly, Bush has dictated when they appear together. In other words, it's not based on a situation that occurred, it's based on when Bush decided they should go together in a sentence. And in every major policy discussion, Bush made sure to put them in the same sentence so that people would be fooled into thinking the two go together. That's why there was so much overwhelming support for the war at first.

When the 9/11 commission discovered that there was no association, this frame was lost. They couldn't keep saying the two were related when it was definitively proven that they weren't. So they had to try something else; they went on to this idea of "spreading freedom". Iraq became a war to end the totalitarian regime of Saddam Hussein. Now, it's turned into a terrorist breeding ground, and so they use that justification as well. So they overthrow a government because they don't think it's democratic enough, and thus pave the way for terrorists; then they say they need to stay there to kill all the terrorists.

But now that polls are sinking, it's clear that this frame isn't working. They need to try the proven frame: 9/11. It got the war, it got Bush reelected, and he now thinks it can save his Presidency.

Over 3000 people died at the hands of Osama Bin Laden so that extremists could try to bring their religious ideology into the forefront of politics. Over 3000 innocent people were killed in a tragedy; NOT TO PUSH BUSH'S AGENDA. It is a disgrace to all those who died to use their memory for petty political gain. To think that Clinton was impeached for a personal affair; it is horrifying to think that Bush can get away with such nonsense. The accountability must start now, and I'm glad to see that Democrats are growing the spine necessary to call for it.

TC, thanks for your post. It's always nice to see some truth set out to stem the poisonous flow of disinformation that streams from Bush's blind followers. Too bad they can't see it, but it certainly benefits others who otherwise might get caught up in their lies.

Why is the Dnc asking us to call george Bush?

that is your job, its why your there. If thats not understood then resign and let people with a backbone occupy your office.

Republicans tried to impeach President clinton for fooling around with an Intern...

President bush has involved this nation in a fraudulent war, thousands upon thousands have died, and yet you cannot fullfill the role of your office.

lead or get out of the way

What is it? What is it that keeps people from seeing "The Truth"?

In many cases I believe it is that they limit from where they obtain their information.

September 11th was an attack on America by terrorist.

Terrorists, yes. 15 of the 19 coming from Saudi Arabia, we know.

The President (unlike previous administrations) decided that action had to be taken to prevent this from happening again by attacking terrorist and those who support them.

What a bunch of crap. The conservative press even got Bush to publicaly admit there was no link between Saddam and 9/11. Also, he partially, ineptly invades and occupies two of the poorest nations on the planet and that's the solution? Just like a Republican... I need a war, give me the list of the weakest countries in the world.

Call me crazy but this President's taking action against another unrelated country before the job was completed in Afghanistan is dumb. I do not give him credit for doing half the job in Afghanistan. The person in charge of attacking us was bin Laden. There is no excuse for his being alive and/or free (his right-hand man is doing just as well, too) this long afterwards. As if that is not bad enough, the President now uses quotes from bin Laden to help convince Americans that we should be supporting the Iraq invasion/occupation.

I assume by previous administrations you mean the Reagan and Bush I administrations. Many of us at the time agreed that his policies in the middle east and in Afghanistan were foolish and would come back to haunt us. Blindly arming Islamic Fundamentalist to the teeth, negotiating with terrorists by trading arms for hostages, playing both sides of the Iran-Iraq war, sending troops into Lebanon, etc.

Saddam Hussein and Iraq supported terrorist with financial assistance and allowing them a place to train.

Saddam gave some of the Palistinian families of suicide bombers money just like every other country in the region. The darn Saudis held telethons for them for crying out loud... hear much whining from bush about that?

The place to train thing was shot down long ago and if our goal is to get into the middle of the Palistinian/Israeli conflict then lets just do it... let's stop pretending.

The 9/11 terrorists trained here in the United States and there were a number of organizations that gave to Islamic Fundalmentalist causes. Using that line of thinking shouldn't we be invading ourselves?

President Bush never stated that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11.

See above posting.

Why is it so impossible for you people to see that?

Its impossible because it's not really true and because Bush has intermingled 9/11 with everything from shopping to Iraq.

The only people that keep mentioning the two of them in the same sentence are Democrats.

See above posting.

If a person gives money to Sen. Byrd's old alumni the KKK and they use that money to blow-up a church, even though he had nothing to do with the planning or the carrying out of the plan, is that person any less responsible?

Depends on the exact circumstances whether they have a lot of responsibility or any responsibility at all. Here's one:

If a person gives money to help extremely poor families who's son has committed suicide should we kill them, imprison them or something else? If your answer is one of the first two, we had better begin building a lot more prisons here in the US.

I scroll down and down pages filled with backwards commentation and see why the Democratic party is in it's downward slide from power. Democrats, mostly our so called "progressive" or leftist democrats have lost touch with simple reality, that is, the post 9/11 world. No one could imagine our own airliners could and would be hijacked and employed as weapons against our own people. The imagination just wasn't there. But it has happened now and has served as a reality check for most of the world, who are now taking steps to deal with threats before those threats reach the homeland. This is what the Iraq war is all about. It's not about any linkage of Hussein to 9/11. In fact, I don't even recall Bush or his administration ever linking Saddam to 9/11. What Iraq is, is the realization (all over again) that we cannot afford a despot like the profoundly dishonest and anti-American/Isreal Hussein, who we know to have used WMDS in past conflicts, to hold the power that he had as long as the mere possibility exists that he covets and possesses and will even proliferate WMDs to people who would go to such lengths as hijack airplanes just to inflict casualties on the America people.

Democrats are being Republican lites.

*- Fail to speak in unison against the war's blunders.
*- Majority blindly voted for an illegal Iraq war except a few.
*- I have no idea anymore what the democratic party stands for.

To the Republicans who question some of the comments Democrats make about Iraq and George W., this may help make it clear...

After 9/11, pretty much EVERYONE, regardless of party supported going into Afghanistan as a response. At the time there were virtually no terrorist operations in Iraq, and though there were probably people in Iraq who supported what happened on 9/11, there was no organization to that support.

People around the world, not the Arab world, but from all countries and cultures question how reasonable it was to attack Iraq considering how little evidence there was to support a connection between Iraq and the terrorists. George W. has even strained and hurt relationships between this country and others. When it comes down to it, George W. went to war with Iraq to follow up what "Daddy Bush" had done.

Now, consider that resentment in the middle east for what the USA has been doing in Iraq has been growing. While a lot of people over there initially celebrated the removal of Saddam, they didn't want the USA to stay in Iraq. They wanted a chance to decide for themselves how to govern. That resentment has grown to the point where many people over there become terrorists because the USA isn't getting out. The longer we stay in Iraq, the more people want us out. Also, the longer we stay over there, the more they see the new government in Iraq as being associated with their dislike of the USA. So violence will continue against what they see as the enemy. We don't want the new government to be seen as an enemy, so we should get out to HELP the new government in Iraq. Being ready and willing to go back in to help if it's requested is fine, but staying over there will only add to the long-term problems the new government there will face.

What we need in this country is to feel we are protected. Sending our National Guard troops over to Iraq helps protect us by pulling away the people who signed up to protect us here at home? Closing military bases here in the USA helps protect our country? I'm all for closing useless posts, but having bases around the country helps keep us protected here. Even half-trained military personel who havn't been sent off somewhere are better than none.

Going after terrorists is something we all support, but what's more important, going after terrorists, or preventing people from becomming terrorists? For every insurgant killed in Iraq, 20 anti-USA people will join in the fight against the USA in some way. They may go from being against the anti-USA forces to supporting them, even if they don't become fighters themselves. Keep that in mind.

So, when you see and hear Democrats saying negative things about the current administration, consider that while not everyone is diplomatic about it, it's caused by some fundamental flaws in what the current administration has done, and is doing. If George W. would do the right thing and start talking about getting out of Iraq and about going after the TERRORISTS, it would get a lot of people off his back and his approval rating might start to go back up.

Everyone can make mistakes. We know George W. has made a large number of them, but continuing to make more mistakes and not accept the earlier mistakes only shows that he doesn't understand that his decisions since Afghanistan have been full of mistakes.

Rule of thumb, just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you should walk up to them and start a fight. Chances are, if you did that you'd end up in jail for assault.

So, why is it George W. started a fight with Iraq and hasn't been tossed in jail?

Sal, don't assume that the party is ONLY the "elected officials". The party is mostly about us "normal" people. With Howard Dean's work, we will begin to see Democrats who are willing to stand up for what they believe in getting into office instead of the current group that caves in to Republican pressure.

Being a Democrat isn't just about siding with the candidate who goes on the ballot, it's about how you feel this government should be run. Many people have been disgusted with how things are going and have been waiting for a Democratic candidate to step forward so they can vote for him or her.

Howard Dean would have been a better candidate than Kerry, no question. While people may sometimes dislike his directness, they appreciate that he has the strength needed to properly run things without caving in. We need STRONG people as candidates in this party. We need people who would rather fight and lose than give in to pressure. We need people who care about the working people in this country as well as the wealthy to step forward.

Those slick people who can charm an audience are your typical politician, and many people are SICK of typical politicians. We want candidates who can tell people the truth, no matter what the "politicial costs might be".

Have you noticed how they flipped talking about Bush's approval ratings? Instead of talking about 46% approval, they have flipped it to say 54% disapprove.

To me, it sounds a lot more negative the other way around.

Remember we went to war due to WMD's. What a slap in the face for Bush to keep invoking the victims
of 9/11 to sell his war. What happened to his switch of bringing Democracy. Guess that did'nt sell well. People are not buying his crud anymore.
Only the neo-cons are hanging on. I have a 21 year old son who I always set in his mind to never join the armed forces. After vietnam I felt I could never trust our Government again when it came to war. Sad isn't it? We should all live in a country that we can intrust our children to. Not proud of my position, I wish it were different. Every time I see another soldier die I see my son in his or her place and it makes me cry. I am not anti government, just the memories of Vietnam have made me this way. We have another Vietnam here. Our boys and girls were and are being sent here on false pretenses. Our families are being dupped into loosing their loved ones, again. Worth it? How dare Bush stand in the face of this nation and say even one American life is worth it. Well our work is cut out for us. We as a
nation must inspire all we know to vote Democratic
next round.

Brian- You wrote, "In fact, I don't even recall Bush or his administration ever linking Saddam to 9/11." Clearly you are NOT reading what is written here, but as you confess, "scrolling down page after page." The FACTS are here, and we quote the Adminstration repeatedly regarding their efforts to tie 9/11 to the Invasion of Iraq. Pre-Invasion, there were no terrorists in Iraq. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and Saddam Hussein's power was in serious decline. The only thing in Iraq that this Administration had any interest in attaining was oil, and the President has declared "It is worth it!" For whom? You? Me?

Dubya lied to the world, he lied to Congress and most importantly, as if being a liar was not sufficient, he lied to the American people, you and me.

The President reiterated the 911 and Iraq linkage in his speech several times the other night. Perfect !!, now would be the time to blow the Administration out of the water by revealing the 911 conspiracy and coverup. Why not purchase prime TV airtime and play the documentary Loose Change - believable and compelling evidence that the attacks were an inside job. But why you say? > to make a populist case for perpetual war, and the resultant money machine for connected contractors and nationals.
How unthinkable, a neo-con Administration attacking its own people. Why hasn't Osama Bin Laden been produced in this WarOnTair? - answer - he's on the payroll...

Why wait until 2008 - clean house now !

GWB exploiting 9-11 should really come as no surprise to anyone.
He exploited gays, minorities and our active military members to get re-elected.
We should know by now that he will exploit anyone anywhere with zero remorse if he stands a chance to win an argument. He is all about being right 100% of the time no matter who pays the price or how many lives are lost. Period, end of story.

Those slick people who can charm an audience are your typical politician, and many people are SICK of typical politicians. We want candidates who can tell people the truth, no matter what the "politicial costs might be".

Posted by DaveB on June 30, 2005 at 09:00 AM

Yes and that is the way it should be, BUT it just doesn't work that way. Unfortunately there are many considerations now for politicians to balance on a plate.

Posted by debora on June 30, 2005 at 10:54 AM

Yes, debora those of us old enough to remember Vietnam see another one staring us in face again. We can never forget the anguish, pain, frustration, anger and fear that the nation and so many families lived through.

You can rest assured that there will be no troop withdrawal from Iraq during this current administrtion. And by the time another one comes into office lets hope that the situation has not deteriorated to the point we have to leave literally run out of the Middle East as the US had to leave Vietnam. But now that some thought has been put to the idea, probably not seeing that Bush would like to put 14 permanent bases in Iraq (close those in the US, but open new ones on foreign soil - huh!)

What is truly sad are the lives lost in the name of a lies and profit making (most modern wars are waged for this reason).

Gregor,

Negative! What I see here are not facts, but quotes. Quotes are meaningless when taken out of the context in which they were said, a practice which seems to dominate this site. Therefore I'd much prefer to get my information somewhere more reliable and less biased and I'd implore you to do the same. So let me reiterate myself that Bush made no association with 9/11 and Iraq or Hussein, but he did, however, validly link Hussein to Al-Quaeda. The statement that when we went in there were no terrorists is utterly false. We knew Al-Zarqawi was briefly imprisoned inside one of Saddam's prisons before the dictator pardoned him and set him free, and as is evident, Zarqawi remains in Iraq at the head of an overplayed but formidable resistance against our forces. Now, does this fact, a real fact, suggest any collusion between Saddam and Al-quaeda? Not alone, it would not, but coupled with other beliguerant behavior Saddam has displayed over 12 years of defiance of UN sactions and policy, is it really worth the risk in finding out, say with a cache of WMDs changing hands? If you really think 9/11 was an acceptable loss of American lives and we deserved it blah blah blah, then you might say yes. Now, to address the question of WMDs in Iraq: be careful with this one, as the search has only begun for WMDs. Remember, because there was great clamour from the left, Bush went the way of attempting a diplomatic solution over Iraq's suspected Nuke program and it turned into a year long wild goose chase. During that year, Saddam had many opportunitees to hide weapons if he had them, and there are still a lot of places to look. To put the search into perspective, China is still, STILL uncovering in its own soil caches of weapons and WMDs that were left after the Japanese occupation during WWII, a span of 60 odd years. Now that's a historic fact, one of few you can regard as trustworthy from this site.

Oh, and oil.OIL? I weep for your ignorance.

WOW!!! When I made my statements there were only 6 postings, now 24 hours later there are over 20!!! I must have struck a nerve. But I must say that when I read the other postings, I do so with a mixture of humor and sadness. People still do not see the connection of the war in Iraq and the war against terror. They continue to repeat over and over again "Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11". And I agree with them...to a point. Saddam may have had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks that murdered thousands of innocent people. People going about their lives; traveling with loved ones, going to work, running to the help of others. Terrorist attacked us on that day and by liberating Iraq, terrorist have one last place to train. One last place to receive financial support. And by taking that away from them and by taking the fight to them, we are making America safer. Does that mean we will never be attacked again...no. But it is more then what previous administrations have done. Have a happy Independance Day and remember the reason we have this weekend and the people that provided it for us.

A must read. Click on the LonelyProfessor:

Another must read. Click on the LonelyProfessor:

Another must read. Click on the LonelyProfessor:

http://www.retroactiveimpeachment.com

datrute---how could you possibly claim that the terrorists have no where but iraq to train? you think pakistan, afganistan, iran, chechnya, egypt, timor, texas are all filled with happy wal mart shoppers now? are you an idiot? notice that there are thousands of madras's in pakistan alone where there just may be a few anti-american conversations from time to time...heard of north korea or....

and how many times do you clowns need to see the evidence amassed by the 911 commision and so many others to realize bush took us to war for no reason connected to terrorism and has most likely increased the ranks of terrorists many times over.

The Truth- You sir, have had your head in the sand way too long.

When are YOU going to realize that this bushco administration NEEDed to put this country on a war footing in order to get into Iraq.

When are YOU going to realize that yur Prez, allowed it to happen.

{{{Waving at you Greg}}} and thanks for the heads up.

Yep, PeppermintLizzy,
our Prez and many managers/CEO's/etc. of corporations KNEW something was up that day. How much I'm not sure, but I KNOW that THEY KNEW something was about to happen. All I will say. But it was necessary for the admin.'s agenda. So much for truth and integrity and looking out for Americans' interests, which ones are becoming all to clear and they're not most peoples'. Everyone keep your heads up, I have a suspicion the next one will be a doozy! Right now, they couldn't/ wouldn't defend certain places/people unless it was really politically expedient. That's the way they work. (If they read this, which I'm sure someone in their org will, look for an immediate attack/response/investigation of the messenger, but not the truth in the message. They can't handle the truth!)