The new defense is that Karl Rove was not the source for Novak, but the other way around? If that's the case, who was Novak's source? He doesn't have CIA clearance from what I understand.

Turning this into a chicken vs. the egg debate won't work because the leak had to come from somewhere. And assuming this is true that Novak was Rove's source, he's still in the wrong leaking it to Cooper

How much does it take before the American public will unite and demand impeachment for this bunch of corrupt idiots in the WH? It would seem that with all the lies from day one, the complete deceptive practices, the pre-emptive war leading to many thousands of the deaths of innocent people, the Downing Street memos and now this treasonous act, that the special prosecutor would have plenty of ammo for positive action. Unless he too is in Bush's pocket.

UNDERSTAND THAT ROVE MAY NOW FACE PERJURY CHARGES! HE LIED ABOUT HIS TESTOMONY!!
ROVE TESTIFIED TO FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS THAT HE LEARNED PLAME'S -NAME- FROM NOVAK:

Times says that Rove has told federal investigators that he received a telephone call from columnist Bob Novak on July 8, 2003. In that call, the source tells the Times, Rove "learned from the columnist the NAME of . . . Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq."

YET A YEAR LATER, ROVE CLAIMS HE HAD NOT KNOWN THE AGENT'S NAME:

Rove “I didn’t know her NAME.” CNN -2004

THIS IS A BALDFACE LIE! HIS TESTOMONY PROVES HE KNEW HER NAME THREE DAYS BEFORE HE SPOKE TO COOPER!

WE NOW HAVE PROOF THAT ROVE HAS LIED IN THIS INVESTIGATION.

IF THE TIMES ARTICLE IS TRUE, AND ROVE DENIES IT, THEN HE WILL PERJUR HIMSELF FURTHER. THIS EXPLAINS THE DEAFENING SILENCE FROM THE WHITEHOUSE!

test 4

Why was Rove commenting on -- much less verifying -- info about anyone's CIA identity? It's like he had set up shop and was selling secrets. I wonder what the price was for confirmation?

I'm also beginning to wonder if there were more than TWO top White House officials leaking Plame's identity. Unless, Bolton or Tenet were leaking it from the CIA (another interesting proposition), the info had to come from those who had access to the info at the White House.

In the Yahoo article on the internet last night Rove's grand jury testitmony had him saying that when Novak called he said he had heard a similar report from another reporter "who he could not remember" any longer. Novak has an informer. The other reporter had an informer. They both were instructed to call Rove for verification.

The plot thickens?

With all this Sh^% swirling around the Whitehouse over Rove's big mouth and bad memory, I say it's time for a courtesy flush! I live 20 miles outside Washington, and from where I sit this whole situation STINKS! My honest opinion on why the Prez is not saying anything is that his butt is on the line too. Tricky Dick has gotta be rolling over in his grave. To think he resigned over a few DNC documents getting stolen by a sneak squad! Overt acts to sabotage the careers of CIA agents, by blowing their covers while on undercover assignment, in support of wartime intelligence gathering is a crime, and the maximum penalty is DEATH. I'll build the gallows for free! Hang 'im High, Mr. President! We're counting on you to restore at least a hint of morality to the GOP. You rode the "decency" vote to the Oval Office twice, now act like you've got a set, and do what needs doin'!

X-Republican, and Proud of it!

The RNC is slandering Joe Wilson by claiming he lied in saying that Cheney sent him to Niger. However, Wilson never said that. As a matter of fact, Wilson said the opposite! He said that Cheney never even knew about his trip to Niger.

WILSON: "Well, look, it's absolutely true that NEITHER the vice president nor Dr. Rice nor even George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger. What they did, what the office of the vice president did, and, in fact, I believe now from Mr. Libby's statement, it was probably the vice president himself... They asked essentially that we follow up on this report -- that the AGENCY follow up on the report. So it was a question that went to the CIA briefer from the Office of the Vice President."

The RNC has to lie about Wilson in order to cover up the previous lies of this scandel.

Another thing. Who leaked Rove's testomony to the grand jury yesterday? I think Rove himself did!

Let’s hold those responsible for the outing of Plame. Let’s also hold responsible Senators Kerry and Lugar responsible for their outing of Fulton Armstrong, of the National Intelligence Council. They too should be stripped of any security clearance and should be dismissed from all duties – fired. After all – outing an undercover person is treasonous. They too are guilty of treason and should be thrown out of the Senate.

I applaud every Republican willing to look at this issue objectively.

However, many conservatives continue to disseminate the GOP talking points. I've written a point-by-point take-down of one such effort, and included, in that post, links to other blogs that have done the same.

I think it would be great if this site could serve as a central resource to rebut the assertions in the GOP talking points on this issue.

[and as a side note, this is my first comment here; hi everyone!]

We forget the reason this 'architect' needed to "out" Ms Plame. The white house was furious with her husband, Wilson. Why? Because he dared to challenge the information from Niger as valid. He dared to confront the administration in the time of lies leading us into war. The Bush administration was selling a whole WMD package, Wilson was getting in the way, the architect took out a few studs so the wall could fall down.
We are uniting behind this, we must now demand the media investigate. Where are the investigators? Are they all reporters only?
And shouldn't Judith Miller be out of jail by now?

We forget the reason this 'architect' needed to "out" Ms Plame. The white house was furious with her husband, Wilson. Why? Because he dared to challenge the information from Niger as valid. He dared to confront the administration in the time of lies leading us into war. The Bush administration was selling a whole WMD package, Wilson was getting in the way, the architect took out a few studs so the wall could fall down.
We are uniting behind this, we must now demand the media investigate. Where are the investigators? Are they all reporters only?
And shouldn't Judith Miller be out of jail by now?

I feel a little sheepish about just how much I'm enjoying watching Scott McClellan twist in the wind in the last few days. The gravity of the issue notwithstanding...this is karma in action, baby! All that oily bad energy that Karl Rove has oozed onto the American psyche has finally made its cosmic U-turn and is well on its way to smacking him upside his head -- which looks
suspiciously like Baby Face Nelson...coincidence? I think not.

In any case, hopefully the White House Press Corps will continue to leverage its newfound testicular fortitude and break down the formula in plainspeak:

(1) outing of Valerie Plume
+ (1) punishing Joe Wilson for not finding that pesky yellowcake in Niger and writing about it
+ (1) concocting bogus reasons for waging war
+ ($181 billion) war price tag
+ (67,000) lives lost in Iraq and Afghanistan
= A scandal that makes Watergate a rigged homecoming queen election

Tatteredcoat,
YOU HAVE TO go to RNC.org and post this "point by point" take down. Of course it would never make it past the censors, but it if it were to get through, it would be mindblowing to the parrots/sheep-ple over there.

Rove Learned CIA Agent's Name From Novak

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer
11 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story.

The conversation eventually turned to Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration's use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said.

Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Niger, according to the source.

Novak's column, citing two Bush administration officials, appeared six days later, touching off a political firestorm and leading to a federal criminal investigation into who leaked Plame's undercover identity. That probe has ensnared presidential aides and reporters in a two-year legal battle.

Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson's wife from another member of the news media but he could not recall which reporter had told him about it first, the person said.

When Novak inquired about Wilson's wife working for the CIA, Rove indicated he had heard something like that, according to the source's recounting of the grand jury testimony.

Rove told the grand jury that three days later, he had a phone conversation with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper and — in an effort to discredit some of Wilson's allegations — informally told Cooper that he believed Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, though he never used her name, the source said.

An e-mail Cooper recently provided the grand jury shows Cooper reported to his magazine bosses that Rove had described Wilson's wife in a confidential conversation as someone who "apparently works" at the CIA.

Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, said Thursday his client truthfully testified to the grand jury and expected to be exonerated.

"Karl provided all pertinent information to prosecutors a long time ago," Luskin said. "And prosecutors confirmed when he testified most recently in October 2004 that he is not a target of the investigation."

In an interview on CNN earlier Thursday before the latest revelation, Wilson kept up his criticism of the White House, saying Rove's conduct was an "outrageous abuse of power ... certainly worthy of frog-marching out of the White House."

Wilson also said "my wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."

In an interview Friday, Wilson said his comment was meant to reflect that his wife lost her ability to be a covert agent because of the leak, not that she had stopped working for the CIA beforehand.

His wife's "ability to do the job she's been doing for close to 20 years ceased from the minute Novak's article appeared; she ceased being a clandestine officer," he said.

Federal law prohibits government officials from divulging the identity of an undercover intelligence officer. But in order to bring charges, prosecutors must prove the official knew the officer was covert and nonetheless knowingly outed his or her identity.

Rove's conversations with Novak and Cooper took place just days after Wilson suggested in a New York Times opinion piece that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

Democrats continued this week to sharpen their attacks, accusing Rove of compromising a CIA operative's identity just to discredit the political criticism of her husband.

On Thursday, Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada pressed for legislation to strip Rove of his clearance for classified information, which he said President Bush should have done already. Instead, Reid said, the Bush administration has attacked its critics: "This is what is known as a cover-up. This is an abuse of power."

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said Democrats were resorting to "partisan war chants."

Across the Capitol, Rep. Rush Holt (news, bio, voting record), D-N.J., introduced legislation for an investigation that would compel senior administration officials to turn over records relating to the Plame disclosure.

Pressed to explain its statements of two years ago that Rove wasn't involved in the leak, the White House refused to do so this week.

"If I were to get into discussing this, I would be getting into discussing an investigation that continues and could be prejudging the outcome of the investigation," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Thanks for that suggestion, tird_blossum_picker. However, a visit to RNC.org convinced me that everything is going just swell for our country here and abroad . . . I had no idea we had so much good news to celebrate!

This one is slipping away from us too. What the hell is wrong with us. We missed on Delay, Downing Street Memo puttered and died, now we are losing the fight on Rove. We are pathetic.

Pat

Posted by Pat on July 15, 2005 at 01:08 PM

What indication do you have that we are losing?

I find this Rove/Novak connection to be VERY interesting, since it has worked for them in the past. I cannot recall the specifics, but Rove DID use Novak for a local political campaign years ago. Novak was the reporter who put into print some smear and lies about Rove's political opponent, which resulted, of course, in Rove's candidate winning.

The fact that they are "connected" again in recent times suggests that this is a pattern of behavior. And, let's not forget that Rove has LOTS of behavior patterns which are questionable. Hence, motive, opportunity, and past behavior all point (in bright neon lights) to the fact that Rove is a slimeball who will step on everyone and anyone to meet his objectives.

Come on, Dems. Hang tough and hang together. Fight these bullies and TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK!!!!

Lying about a private sexual encounter led to a multi-million dollar investigation and subsequent impeachment proceeding. Apparently lying about national security is a lesser sin.

Tattered Coat, your point-by-point is an awesome piece of investigative work. Great job!
Our president's "loyalty" to Rove is just as misplaced as the WMD that we attacked Iraq over.
We deserve better than this from our president and his staff. This is just one more example of the screw-up and move-up rule of appointed officals under the reign of George II.

www.fladems.com

CADem, don't you recall that Starr's "discovery" of MonicaGate came after he had already wasted $millions persecuting anyone and everyone that the Clintons knew, before Bill was elected President? The impeachment was a sham, and I have to give Bill props for the stones he showed in staring that bullet down. I guess he knew there was nothing "impeachable' in his actions, no matter how deceitful they may have been. As much embarassament as the lunacy of the investigation and senate hearings into Bill's poor taste in women caused our nation, that was ALL that the impeachment procedings accomplished. HOWEVER, in this case there is a smoking gun, and a federal crime under investigation. I hope our leaders in the House and Senate have the will and courage to do what they must when the evidence is put to the light.

So now Rove says that Novak told him who Wilson's wife was and that she was CIA??? Well who told Novak??? He didn't just pull it out the air!!! Uh uh that wild haired story ain't working either.

You know as well as I do Mr. White House that according to federal policy, until this investigation is over EVERYTHING is supposed to be suspended for Karl Rove and that includes clearances.

And lets not forget something here: if Karl Rove leaked info to a journalist whose to say he wouldn't do to someone against this country!!!

This one is slipping away from us too. What the hell is wrong with us. We missed on Delay, Downing Street Memo puttered and died, now we are losing the fight on Rove. We are pathetic.

Pat

Posted by Pat on July 15, 2005 at 01:08 PM

No we are not Pat! Why??? Because though we the public haven't put it all together yet there is a thread running through Rove's leak, the Downing St. Memo and the intercepts that Sen. Biden wants for the hearings on Bolton. All thre are connected, but just haven't figured out how yet.

Now the link between the Downing St. Memo and Rove's leak is that the memo states how Bush wanted justification for going to war and Rove's leak involved Ambassador Wilson who went against the administration in saying that there were no WMD to blame on going to war. And as for the intercepts, hey if there were not incriminating evidence of ALL kinds the White House wouldn't be so adamont on them not going out.

I am completely puzzled over the actions and comments of most republicans. Could it possibly be a flaw in their genes that cause them to become completely stupid? I find it unfathomable that they can see nothing wrong in anything this president has done in the past five years. And before that several years as Texas governor. Yes, he was a liar and knew nothing but deceit even then. Richard Nixon was forced from office for much less than this yahoo has done and his only crime was being stupid. My father was a staunch republican for his entire life but he had the good sense to know when something was not right. Now this present crop cannot recognize any wrong doing that even a child can see. All they can do is scream "partisan smear". They cannot recognize treason when it hits them between the eyes. Gotta be the genes.

THE BOOK OF ROVE

Bush is my shepherd, I shall not think. He taketh away my bankruptcy protection, my farm and my sink. As I lay here in the hospital staring at death, his congressmen slander judges while ignoring the national debt. Though I walk through the valley of the oil in Iraq, I’m assured less VA benefits if I ever get back. For Bush is the glory and Rove the power when gas prices rise ever higher and higher. Woe is the nation when Bush helps the rich, while me and my family are treated like a abusive mans bitch.

I heard the RNC chairman say on TV this morning that the real culprit in this entire mess is none other than Joe Wilson. Can you believe that? This guy outs his own wife because, oh, let's see, she wanted him to take out the garbage last night? Or she griped because he didn't put the cat out? Makes sense to this White House bunch.

test

Today we learn that Mrs Wilson wasn't a clandestine officer at the time of the Novak report. Further reports point out she hasn't been in a clandestine role for over 5-years and her neighbor and friends knew she worked for the CIA. Seems like any good reporter could find out that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. Guess that pretty well closes the door on all of this BS. Once again the dems open their collective mouths and insert both feet---shoes and socks included.

This really is much to do about nothing. Mr. Wilson has been proven to be a liar and his op-ed piece in the NY Times was just another attack against the President by a pissed off liberal. The press gave Rove Mrs. Plame's indentity and it ends up she wasn't even an agent. The only question I have is why is that silly reporter still in jail. Given that she works for the NY Times I suspect her source is more embarrassing to her and the Times than it is to the WH.

X-army welcome to the home of the rest of the digusted disgruntled americans. By looking at your name you must have served for our country. Thank you very much for what you and the thousands of others have done for us. WE truly do appreciate your service for us even though it may appear it was all for not. Again, Thank you and welcome to our club!!

LOUSY ARGUMENT NUMBER 1: VALERIE PLAME DIDN’T DESERVE PROTECTING

Valerie Plame was a desk jockey, a clerk, a party planner (all terms used by Newsweek's Charlie Gasparino on MSNBC). She worked for the CIA, but she was unimportant at the agency, not “covert” in any meaningful sense. She was no James Bond, and “outing” her didn’t hurt national security.

WHY ARGUMENT NUMBER 1 IS LOUSY

Argument number 1 is factually untrue:
It is a matter of factual record whether or not Valerie Plame was covert or not: she was. Anyone who is basing their “this is a tempest in a teapot!” jabberwocky on this factual assertion is roadkill. Disprove them, then ignore them.

Here’s the proof: the CIA issued a “referral” on the case to the Justice Department so the Justice Department would investigate whether a crime had been committed when Plame was described publicly as working for the agency. If we all agree that the CIA (and not Ken Mehlman or Karl Rove or Ted Kennedy or Mos Def or freaking Ghandi) determines whether or not CIA employees are covert, then bingo, it’s proven: she’s covert. The CIA wouldn’t ask Justice to open a criminal investigation into her outing, if outing her was not -- in the CIA’s eyes -- potentially criminal. And outing her would only be seen as potentially criminal by the CIA if she was in fact covert.

Once you isolate its factual inaccuracies, what remains of Lousy Argument Number 1 doesn’t even to be dignified with a response:
As for the “outing her didn’t hurt national security” argument, here’s the question that should defuse it: should it be illegal to out covert CIA operatives? Should it be illegal, on grounds of national security, to reveal the identity of someone working for US intelligence whom the government has chosen to keep covert? If your answer is no, then by all means take that argument into the ring with the American people, and I’ll wait in your corner with a can for you to spit your teeth into when you’re done. If you want to make a public case that our government has no right to keep people covert in the intelligence service, and they’re all “fair game”, in Karl’s alleged words to Chris Matthews, then PLEASE make that argument front and center, prime time, in the Rose Garden, and then hand Dean the keys to Congress and the White House on your way out.

The key to dealing with Lousy Argument 1 is to separate the issue of whether Plame was covert from whether national security is at issue in this case. They can disparage her and her CIA work til the cows come home, but if they admit she was covert (and any honest ones will surely have to, because it is a matter of factual record), then the “not hurting national security” argument is done, defunct, moot, laughable. Well, laughable only in a dark sick way. Read this account by Plame’s CIA classmate if you need more ammunition on the harm-to-national-security issue. But I don’t think you do.

demsRwrong I'm not sure where you get your info but I don't think you belong in here. Do you have proof of what your saying or are you just another neocon afraid the King George and his croonies are hopefully going to get what coming to them. Go back to where you came from because we don't want you spewing your garbage in here!!

Oops there I go engaging a troll. Slap! Slap!

FIRE ROVE NOW! Nixon did less and got impeached...why are we cutting georgy a break?

Doesn't it sound like the White House was more concerned about Valerie Plame's CIA status than Saddam's WMDs at that critical time of the war?

and here we sit on our butt twittling our thumbs as we idly stand by and let Bush weakens the USA even more

Republicans now claim that Rove received information about the leak from journalists. This is crazy. Let's examine this.

Let us say that in their capacity as co-hosts of CNN's "Capital Gang", they were able to discover information about Joe Wilson's wife. This may have come from a senior administration source, as yet unnamed. Or perhaps it was Judith Miller who knew the other administration source and told Novak (Miller is in jail and Novak is not). Either way, Novak had to get confirmation.

Let's say that Novak and Matthew Cooper were in contact in order to get a third and independent confirmation directly from Rove (TIME magazine's controversial choice of George W Bush as Man of the Year may have given TIME and Cooper irregular access to the White House, the president's primary concern being "loyalty to his friends") This would have been the responsible choice for Novak. He printed his article three days after Cooper got Rove to confirm. It may in fact be true that Novak never talked directly to either of the two administration sources; rather, he was the one chosen to print the story precisely because he hadn't. Miller has refused to talk and now she's in jail. Novak has strangely been omitted from this investigation. Cooper got immunity from Rove to break his confidentiality so he could testify in front of a grand jury.

If Rove could confirm it, then he had to have known the information, known that it was secret, and willingly gave Novak the confirmation he needed. But if Rove was not rogue, then he must have been given the OK from the president to give Cooper his confirmation. In this case, Mr. Fitzgerald's comments that "Rove is not the 'target' of this investigation" would then prove prescient, since it very well could be that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating the president. We still don't know who the second and yet unnamed "senior administration official" is.

Republicans now claim that Rove received information about the leak from journalists. This is crazy. Let's examine this.

Let us say that in their capacity as co-hosts of CNN's "Capital Gang", Robert Novak and Judith Miller were able to discover information about Joe Wilson's wife. This may have come from a senior administration source, as yet unnamed. Perhaps it was Judith Miller who knew the other administration source and told Novak (Miller is in jail and Novak is not). Either way, Novak had to get confirmation for his story.

Let's say that Novak and Matthew Cooper were in contact in order for Novak to get a third and independent confirmation directly from Karl Rove (TIME magazine's controversial choice of George W Bush as Man of the Year may have given TIME and Cooper irregular access to the White House, the president's primary concern being "loyalty to his friends"). This would have been the responsible choice for Novak, and rather benign-sounding to Karl Rove, who, as he admitted earlier, only talked to Cooper to "discredit Joe Wilson".

Novak printed his article three days after Cooper got Rove to confirm. It may in fact be true that Novak never talked directly to either of the two administration sources; rather, he was the one chosen to print the story precisely because he hadn't and could be protected. Miller has refused to talk and now she's in jail. Novak has strangely been omitted from this investigation. Cooper got immunity from Rove to break his confidentiality so he could testify in front of a grand jury.

If Rove could confirm it, then he had to have known the information, known that it was secret, and willingly gave Cooper the confirmation he needed. But if Rove was not rogue, then he must have been given the OK from the president to give Cooper his confirmation. In this case, Mr. Fitzgerald's comments that "Rove is not the 'target' of this investigation" would then prove prescient, since it very well could be that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating the president. We still don't know who the second and yet unnamed "senior administration official" is.

If Karlsputin was the "confirming source," that's just as wicked in terms of stealthily insinuating Mrs. Wilson's identity into the media bloodstream as being a primary source.

The upshot of it all is to intimidate other people from going against the Administration line. We'll even go past you to your family is the subtext to people in the CIA and elsewhere. When you choose to blow the whistle, you're not just risking yourself, but also your family. This is hardball indeed. Wouldn't it make you think thrice about blowing the whistle?

This in its wickedness has zero to do with Mr. Wilson. It has to do with making people afraid to blow the whistle.

If Karlsputin were telling something worth "the light of day," he would not have done it on 'double super secret background.'

pogblog

I'm amazed that there hasn't been much news about Iraq this week - just the way the administration likes it. Not long ago, CNN had a report on Iraq all the time with graphics and special music - haven't heard a peep when I've tuned in....however, just got a report online that two marines were killed today.

I read a letter to the editor in our local paper the other day reminding everyone of Clinton's sexual acts and lies. No one was happy with that and he was made to suffer, no doubt.

I wonder, though, how that compares with being responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqis and close to 2,000 US soldiers? Are republicans or the far right people really that hung up on sex?

And, regarding this Rove mess, the Democrats are right in making a stink and all good Republicans should, as well. Don't be fooled. The American people are a powerful group of people when they realize they've been lied to over and over again, and they have been used and when their rights are taken from them. The ship is turning.

Did everyone catch the source of last weekend's rumor that Chief Justice William Rehnquist was going to retire, giving Bush 2 Supremes to nominate?

Bob Novak.

Any doubt the White House wanted to change the subject. They got their chief lackey to bleat another false story.

This weekend, another phony story attempting to take the heat of KR.

Why isn't Novak being held responsible in any way?

He claims to be a journalist and I don't think he's on the official White House payroll, yet. Maybe the RNC, but not the White House.

Now that Karl Rove has been vindicated and it has proved that he was the receiver and not the leaker of this highly sensitive information who are all you left leaning liberal weiners going to go after?

If Rove was the source why is Miller in jail? She is protecting the real source that is why.

Iluvelephants: As any zookeeper knows, it's a known fact that elephants spew huge amounts of crap, as I'm sure you know well.
*******************************************

DID ROVE GET ANYONE KILLED BY LEAKING?

Comments by Andrea Mitchell, NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent, on MSNBC's "Hardball," July 14:

"She (Valerie Plame in 2003) was considered a CIA officer, and a covert officer at Langley. Now she had previously been what was considered under non-official cover, which meant that she was of the deepest type of undercover spy overseas, meaning she had a job in a CIA front organization, a company that took years and years to establish. And that revealing her name was serious because anyone who ever dealt with that company or with her, any foreign national CIA agent, agent that is a term used for foreigners, that person or persons could then be suspect and could then be under life-threatening conditions."

Comments by former CIA special agent, Jack Rice, on MSNBC's "Countdown with Keith Olbermann," July 14:

"Well, this is potentially huge, because what happens now is, everything that she (Valerie Plame) touched, every person that she touched, every asset that she may have come across, is now potentially exposed. Every intelligence organization in the world will now go back and scour their files to see if she was ever in their country, was ever involved with anybody, and try to wrap up every operation. The potential is huge...If there's a perception that you're going to see people in blue pinstripe suits in Washington wrapping themselves in the flag and talking about God and country while they're exposing CIA and intelligence operatives, you're going to have a real hard time convincing CIA officers to get out into the field and risk their lives for those people."

It has not been proven that Rove is the reciever, and not the leaker, so hold yourself back.

And, no one knows all the facts at the moment - only what is being "leaked."

Karl Rove's Nondisclosure Agreement

Comments from the article "It appears that Karl Rove is in serious trouble," posted today at SmirkingChimp.com by John W. Dean, former counsel to Nixon:

"There are stories circulating that Rove may have been told of Valerie Plame's CIA activity by a journalist, such as Judith Miller, as recently suggested in Editor & Publisher. If so, that doesn't exonerate Rove. Rather, it could make for some interesting pairing under the federal conspiracy statute, which was the statute most commonly employed during Watergate."

Sigh... Once again we seem to have a great issue and look like a bunch of idiots frothing at the mouth. Fellow lefties, the facts ARE important. The facts can help us if we use them right. The right wingnuts are killing us with the facts right now. We are just hyperventilating. Alot of air is going in and out of our mouths, yet we're just getting dizzy.

Another opportunity wasted.

Posted by StraightParty on July 15, 2005 at 09:44 PM

Quit whining. We aren't losing a thing. The dumb White House cover story is just that, and every analyst I have heard isn't bitin'.

Stop watching FOX.

When are we going to wake up. Do you know how many times the words "Republican", "Bush", and "Rove" appear on the FRONT PAGE of the DNC site? 21 times. That's just the front page. We look like whiners and finger pointers with no message.

Wanna know how many times the words "Democrat", "Harry Reid", etc. appear on the front page of the RNC website? ZERO. Big fat nada. We are not going to start winning elections until we develop and market a clear message, not just a vocal opposition.

Are the trolls out tonight,
You bet, and they are a sad fright
For they only come here to blaaaaa-ther.

Does anyone even realize that Plame was not a NOC any longer? Her last assignment was in 1997. 6 years before the alleged "leak" took place. You are no longer "covert" if you have been off assignment longer than 5 years which she was after she gave birth...much ado about nothing.

Maybe it was Tom Cruise. Remember he had the NOC list!!!!

There was no excuse for the Democrats letting the Bush Administration off the hook in the mysertious case of Jeff Gannon, the Downing Street Memo. Now I fear the scandal regarding the disgusting methods of Karl Rove will blow over as well. This concern is largely because of the Democrats lacking 'balls' when it comes to getting nasty and making a real ongoing case against the President and his team.
Never forget that the Republican minority created a major investigation over nothing in a matter known as Whitewater during Bill Clinton's first term. Therefore, being the minority party is no excuse for the Democrats acting so cowardly and wimping out.
I encounter more and more Democrats complaining about the their Democratic elected officials always tuckering out and backing off the in the face of resistance on behalf of the Bush administration amidst their never ending blatant displays of tyranny and scandal.
Will we see a change? Or will the Demcrats fleefer out on us again?

..much ado about nothing.

Posted by Iluvelephants on July 15, 2005 at 11:46 PM

i at times like feeding trolls, especially elephants. let us not forget rove is brilliant. i remain convinced that rove knew what he was doing and bush had knowledge of it too, to thus punish a critic of their iraq invasion. yet to prove is not probable. a law whether broken or not is not the issue. be this a democrat (aka donkey) or republican (aka elephant), makes no difference. ethically all knew better. once again, reminds me of the great movie, "wizard of oz." now that the curtain has been drawn, oz (aka rove) is very visible. and like dorthy, americans now know who he is. no more hiding behind a curtain with a megaphone directing policy. it has been said that he is both a political genius and a very knowledgable student of history (re: the mastermind of perfect timing w/11 anti-gay ballot inititatives in crucial states to orchestrate a bush win). so now that the curtain is no longer. if rove has any morals left he should resign. of course his critics, myself included, will see this as a victory and confirm their (our) feelings he was guilty. if he doesn't resign, which is the present course, he'll continue this controversy, and his supporters (including you) will be forced to "spin" justifications. thus, a story not going away. oh well, back to reading comments...have a nice weekend all.

ps...i to love elephants.

Karl Rove says he email Stephen Hadley about his conversation concerning Valerie Plame. Of course he did--he HAD TO EMAIL SOMEONE. He needed a cover story in case things went wrong! Rove did it.

Murray8144,

your post reminded me of when I kept checking the GOP and the DNC website prior to the election. Then it was reversed. The DNC and John Kerry websites had issues almost exclusively while the GOP was total Kerry bashing. It seemed to work for them then. Maybe it will work for us now.

Kickem when their down!

Why are we wasting time on this? I heard today that there wasn't even a law broken on Plame, that she wasn't covert and hadn't been posted abroad since 1997.

We've got to start offering something else to the people besides "the Republicans are fooling you, their all big liers". I got news for you most people think that all politicians are liers, why should they vote for us just because were no good at it.

We need to start proposing our own solutions to things like SS reform, and to win the war on terror, not just carp about what they are doing wrong.

If you want to go to the wimps democrat party, might I suggest going to http://www.dlc.org

Go find a great message!

Meanwhile, lets keep the heat on. Look how big this shitstorm is now everyone!!!

"RADAR got a pretty good scoop here (I had nothing to do with it).

Interestingly, not only does it say that Novak spilled his guts to the grand jury, but he reportedly told them that the NYT's Judith Miller told Novak about Valerie Plame's CIA identity, then Novak called his two White House sources (one of which was Rove) for confirmation.

Interesting. So, when Karl Rove's anonymous source says today that Rove found out about Plame from journalists, did that source mean Judy Miller?
Did Robert Novak rat on New York Times reporter Judith Miller? While some have suggested Miller—who never wrote a word about CIA spook Valerie Plame—was dragged into the leak probe when her name turned up on a White House call log, several beltway insiders close to the investigation say special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald learned of Miller’s involvement from Novak himself.

Though the GOP hatchetman claims he’s never spoken to the grand jury about the column, a well-known Democratic pundit tells Radar, “Novak is the media’s Joseph Valachi,” referring to the 1960’s mafia capo who was the first mobster to testify against La Cosa Nostra. “There’s no question he rolled over.” According to our sources, Miller shared Plame’s identity with her perfidious fellow neocon after deciding not to publish it herself; Novak then called his two White House sources for confirmation and wrote the July 14, 2003 column that blew Plame’s cover."

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/novak-reportedly-ratted-everyone-out.html

http://www.radaronline.com/fresh-intelligence/2005/07/15/index.php#report_001810

Hey hey, seems someone played a patsy game with Karl Rove in leaking the identity of CIA agents!!!! Robert Novak used Rove as his second source, surprise surprise...

And who was looking at the memorandum on AIR FORCE ONE, besides Karl Rove?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/16/politics/16memo.html

"Investigators are also trying to determine whether the gist of the information in the memo, including the name of the C.I.A. officer, Valerie Wilson, Mr. Wilson's wife, had been provided to the White House even earlier, said another person who has been involved in the case. Investigators have been looking at whether the State Department provided the information to the White House before July 6, 2003, when her husband publicly criticized the way the administration used intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said."

Surprise surprise, I wonder why the NYTimes always spins it their way? Oh I see now....They want to keep Judith Miller and Karl Rove (along with the other traitor) from being indicted!!!

I don't think their shitty reporting is going to help much, given the facts about this case now.......Batten down the hatches!!!

Kazinski --

Crimes WERE committed. Mr.Rove committed an act of high treason. In days of old he would he might have faced a firing squad for jeopardizing the lives of others working in harms way in defense of our country. Prison is a possibility. However, I doubt he'll end up there. The Republicans have way too many people in high places under their control thanks to the Military Industrial Complex. This Includes all the major television news networks and news media.
As to all politicians all being liars --not true. Also, please take a moment to consider the terrible gravity behind the lies of President George W. Bush over the Iraqi war, the scam in the 2000 elections and now this betrayal to our country by Karl Rove. Thousands of lives have been lost and billions wasted as a result of their deceit. Clearly the Republicans have are taken 'lies' to new and frightening levels. However, the good news is they are not above the law. And it is our duty as Americans to demand justice be done. We must all keep fighting until each one of them faces punishment for their crimes.

The claims that Valerie Plame was not a CIA covert agent come from a) Bob Novak himself, when he was trying to pretty up his douche bag image after the initial controversy in 2003; b) idiotic parsing of Joe Wilson's words when he said that his wife was not a covert agent the day Novak published his article, meaning Novaks outing of her ended her covert career; c) the talking points Ken Mehlman and Karl Rove cooked up for goof balls to spread here.

The reporting by Knight-Ridder on the day the Justice Department investigation into this matter contains:

"The CIA declined to discuss Plame's intelligence work, but an agency official disputed suggestions that she was a mere analyst whose public exposure would have little consequence."

""If she was not undercover, we would have no reason to file a criminal referral," the CIA official said, insisting on anonymity because of the sensitivity of the investigation."

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?ts=1&display=rednews/2003/10/01/build/nation/25-leak.inc

Let's be a little honest when posting here. Appeals court judges in their opinions have stated that the reporters had to reveal their sources because of the severity of the charges, even, as one judge said, if there is a federal shield for reporters in the statute. In other words, national security trumps a reporter's privilege to protect their sources.

Shed no tears for Judith Miller, for Susan McDougal, yes, not for Miller.

Miller is in jail for concealing the truth, McDougal went to a federal penitentiary for refusing to tell a lie.

By the way, this is a thread about Karl Rove. If one wants to discuss DNC policy matters, there are open threads and several specific policy areas on this site.

Of course, if such statements are made just to stifle comment here, go jump in a lake.

This is cute:

"Rove told then-deputy national security adviser Stephen Hadley in the July 11, 2003, e-mail that he had spoken with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper and tried to caution him away from some allegations that CIA operative Valerie Plame's husband was making about faulty Iraq intelligence."

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/30189.html

Isn't this the same place where Scott McClellan told the press corps that Karl Rove, Scooter Libbey and Elliot Abrams had nothing to do with the leak? Sounds like the whole West Wing was involved.

Well, speaking of Susan McDougal's status in relation to Judith Miller:

"Lawyers in the CIA leaks investigation are concerned that special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald may seek criminal contempt charges against New York Times reporter Judith Miller, a rare move that could significantly lengthen her time in jail."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071502080.html

Judy may be in for some hard time, after all.

Does anyone even realize that Plame was not a NOC any longer? Her last assignment was in 1997. 6 years before the alleged "leak" took place. You are no longer "covert" if you have been off assignment longer than 5 years which she was after she gave birth...much ado about nothing.

Posted by Iluvelephants on July 15, 2005 at 11:46 PM

No wonder this country is in such danger from our enemies abroad. With this type of stupid Republican thinking about the nature of spy work, we might as well not have a CIA. Agents go in and out of the cold depending on when they are needed for an assignment...that's how they stay covert. Gee, read some Tom Clancy books.

Now that Karl Rove has been vindicated and it has proved that he was the receiver and not the leaker of this highly sensitive information who are all you left leaning liberal weiners going to go after?

Posted by Iluvelephants on July 15, 2005 at 09:36 PM

He hasn't been vindicated. He's been more deeply implicated as a verifier for other leakers. There is no way he can any longer say he or the White House can say he was not involved. At least two others have fingered him.

If I was the Special Prosecutor, I'd go after the person with the ultimate responsibility for the coverup. Nixon knew. When did Bush know and what did he do or not do about it?

Lead story in today's New York Times claims that former Secretary of State Colin Powell had a memo that he had delivered to President Bush that informed him of Joe Wilson's Africa trip, the results of that trip, and who was involved in the handling of the operation. The memo was dated July 7, 2003. This is four days before Rove talked with Matthew Cooper and seven days before Robert Novak printed his article outing Wilson's wife as an undercover CIA operative.

CNN reports today that National Security Advisor Steven Hadley (then Deputy NSA) did in fact have conversations with Matthew Cooper of TIME magazine.

Exactly what information was exchanged with whom is still uncertain, but now the president's National Security Advisor, who worked under Condoleeza Rice in president Bush's first term, and former Secretary of State Colin Powell (who was not retained in the second administration in favor of promoting Rice to the position) was involved and knew the information. So did the president.

Furthermore, we know that John Bolton had the NSA intercept phone calls made by senior members of the State Department and National Security Council. These are the same intercepts that the White House has been refusing to turn over the Senate (at the request of Joe Biden and other Democrats) as necessary materials to complete Bolton's confirmation package so Bolton can get his up-or-down vote. Strangely, the Bolton nomination has been put on the back-burner and nothing more has been said about these NSA intercepts.

Nevermind for the moment that Bolton was abusing his power as undersecretary of state by tasking the NSA to conduct domestic surveillance of senior-level administration officials -- more senior than undersecretary of state (there can only be what? two others higher than him in DOS?) -- senior-level administration officials and co-workers who were also critics of the administration's strategy of "fixing intelligence around the policy" of war with Iraq (according to the Downing Street minutes...). Nevermind for a moment that Bolton was planning to use these intercepts to blackmail these officials into falling in line, or instead to have them removed from their positions.

Now the president, who constantly professes the importance of "loyalty to his friends", is promoting Bolton to UN Ambassador and desperately trying to push through his confirmation without releasing these intercepts. I wonder exactly what the president knows, since he seems to be intimately involved and aware of every aspect of the operation.

hello all (i just posted this also on open thread also),

this may have already been posted ... a must check out (rove-bush-cia) story that the white house is unexplaining, but spinning, and hello, spinning invites more and more attention... keep spinning white house!

(The physics of unaccountable power

Fineman: Media's pursuit of Karl Rove was inevitable)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8562223/

Let's deal with the REAL scandal. It's time to retroactively impeach Bill Clinton for inspiring Osama bin Laden to send the U.S. "messages with no words" in August 1998, October 2000, and, of course, on 9/11.

http://www.retroactiveimpeachment.com

You know, I've had this awful pain in my right buttock since Clinton was president. It got better about four years ago, but persists...

A certain lifelong Democrat was right when he said in his speech at the Republican National Convention, “…our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrat's manic obsession to bring down our Commander-in-Chief."

Manic Democrats have been uable to bring down our Commander-in-Chief, so now they are going for second best: his right-hand man, Karl Rove.

Manic Democrats who consider Rove “Guilty, even if eventually proven innocent" are hurting this country. How about letting the investigation proceed to it's conclusion before consuming 80% of the news with it? All evidence revealed-to-date points to Wilson and the press, not Rove. The MSM bias has been totally apparent, even blatant.

How about focusing on real news:

The deficit is now $94 billion less than what the February forecast was. The President's tax cuts and pro-growth economic policies are fueling growth and job creation. We've seen more than 3.7 million jobs created over the past 25 months. The unemployment rate is down to 5 percent. The economic growth that is fueled by the President's tax cuts are leading to significant *increases* in revenues, just as the President predicted they would.

At first I thought, “Let them fight this battle…they are going to lose and make fools of themselves in the process”. But the more the media insists on asking questions about Rove before the inquiry is complete, the more I realize that this is more Democratic obstruction. Even if they lose the battle on Rove, they are winning the war of obstructionism over ideas and progress.

Add to that:
Where are the calls for John Kerry's resignation?

There are two reasons Kerry should resign:
--------------------------------------------
1) Senator John Kerry apparently revealed a covert CIA agent on April 11, 2005:

Senators May Have Blown Cover of CIA Agent
By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer

Monday, April 11, 2005

(04-11) 17:29 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --

Mr. Smith came to Washington again Monday, as an alias for a Central Intelligence Agency officer who works covertly. Senators, however, may have blown his cover.

During questioning on John R. Bolton's nomination to be President Bush's ambassador to the United Nations, Bolton and members of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee referred to "Mr. Smith" as one official among several who were involved in a dispute over what Democrats asserted was Bolton's inappropriate treatment of an intelligence analyst who disagreed with him.

"We referred to this other analyst at the CIA, whom I'll try and call Mr. Smith here, I hope I can keep that straight," Bolton said at one point.

Committee Chairman Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., both mentioned a name, Fulton Armstrong, that had not previously come up in public accounts of the intelligence flap.

It is not clear whether Armstrong is the undercover officer, but an exchange between Kerry and Bolton suggests that he may be.

In questioning Bolton, Kerry read from a transcript of closed-door interviews that committee staffers conducted with State Department officials prior to Monday's hearing.

"Did Otto Reich share his belief that Fulton Armstrong should be removed from his position? The answer is yes," Kerry said, characterizing one interview. "Did John Bolton share that view?" Kerry said, and then said the answer again was yes.

"As I said, I had lost confidence in Mr. Smith, and I conveyed that," Bolton replied evenly. "I thought that was the honest thing to do."

--------------------------------------------

2) According to the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, John Kerry should not be permitted to be a Senator unless a vote of two-thirds of each House of Congress waives the fact that Kerry gave aid to our enemies during the Vietnam War.

It is a well-documented fact that Kerry met with the Communist North Vietnamese in Paris while he was still an officer in the Navy Reserve and we were still at war in Vietnam. These actions gave aid to the enemy in a time of war.

Kerry should not be a Senator without a 2/3 vote of Congress! Why? Because the 14th amendment to the US Constitution contains the following in section 3:

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

--------------------------------------------

Let's deal with the REAL scandal. It's time to retroactively impeach Bill Clinton for inspiring Osama bin Laden to send the U.S. "messages with no words" in August 1998, October 2000, and, of course, on 9/11.

http://www.retroactiveimpeachment.com

Posted by Arminius on July 16, 2005 at 12:41 PM

with all due respect, is this to divert attention from a real scandal (bush-rove-cia)? if you folks are not spinnin' you're divertin' and what's next?

Rove may manages to wheedle out of punishment for the outing of Valerie Plame with some kind of technicality, but there should be some kind of punishment because Rove should never have been telling anything he found out about a CIA officer or agent, much less an under cover officer, to any kind of reporter. Whatever comes of this, there is no doubt in my mind that Rove, as well as Novak, is guilty or the trail would never have led to Rove. But, I just feel that with Rove being a Hitler type, and a lobe of Bush's brain, will figure out how to wheedle out of it somehow.

Considering the real scandal is Bill Clinton's legalcy of 9/11, it's kind of silly to describe the Plame affair as a scandal. She wasn't a NOC, her neighbors knew she was in the CIA, and it is clear Joe Wilson lied on numerous occasions concerning how he came to be sent to Niger.

http://www.retraoctiveimpeachment.com

Leave it to the Deomcrats to invent new crimes.

The media leaks the identity of an ex CIA operative to Karl Rove... and Democrats scream that Rove lose his job over it.

Can you say "obvious frothing partisanship"?

You guys are too funny.

Have fun boys!

trolls,

we all know that rove is a brilliant political strategist, knows exactly what he has to do to discredit opposition, and now you must do what trolls do best...his spinnin & divertin'.

Rove should have gotten a legal degree. He's in over his head going up against this Special Prosecutor. Somebody is going to be the next Chuck Colson and rat on all of them.

New avenues to pursue? How about Poppy Bush? He know everyone involved at the CIA and the White House. Bet he makes courtesy calls all the time. Check his phone records.

Or how about Ashcroft? He sat tight for a long time before he appointed a Special Prosecutor. Who was he protecting?

My favorite Nietschze quotes (from "Beyond Good and Evil") which seem to relate quite presciently to this administration:

"The attraction of knowledge would be small if one did not have to overcome so much shame on the way."

"'I have done that,' says my memory. 'I cannot have done that,' says my pride, and remains inexorable. Eventually -- memory yields."

"One begins to mistrust very clever people when they become embarrassed."

"Affability contains no hatred of men, but for that very reason too much contempt for men."

"There are no moral phenomena at all, but only a moral interpretation of phenomena --"

"There is an innocence in admiration; it is found in those to whom it has never yet occurred that they, too, might be admired some day."

"The disgust with dirt can be so great that it keeps us from cleaning ourselves -- from 'justifying' ourselves."

"The more abstract the truth is that you would teach, the more you have to seduce the senses to it."

"Madness is rare in individuals -- but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule."

"There is an innocence in lying which is the sign of good faith in a cause."

"Not that you lied to me, but that I no longer believe you, has shaken me --"

Let us consider again the "character" of this administration.

Here's a perfect example of just how low, how contemptous, how absolutely vile, conservatives can be...

As stated in MediaMatters.org, on the July 12th edition of Fox New's "The Big Story," host John Gibson commented that "White House deputy chief of staff Karl Rove should be given 'a medal' for outing covert CIA operative Valerie Plame, adding that Plame 'should have been outed by somebody.'"

Yes, this cretin actually said that somebody should have outed a covert CIA operative, therefore exposing every CIA operation she every worked on and potentially putting the life of every foreign "asset" she ever worked with at risk. And that the traitor who does so should be given a medal! (At least Gibson should be given credit for ackowledging the obvious, that Rove did indeed "out" Plame.)

A stunning -- and 100% factual -- example of the depraved, amoral partisans who are cheerleading for the Bush administration.

"The media leaks the identity of an ex CIA operative to Karl Rove... and Democrats scream that Rove lose his job over it."

Ah, the simplicity of Repubican partisans. A careful reading of the "news story" in the NYTimes reveals to the careful reader that the source of this tripe is Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin.

Spin, spin, spin

Look at the republicans try to spin, spin spin!!!! They're spinning themselves into a corner!!

This is too funny, just check out the scandal as it keeps getting nastier.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_rove;_ylt=AnKDu7azyQOr_R1SfH2r4Z9ZJ_wA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

""I didn't take the bait," Rove wrote in the message, disclosed to The Associated Press. In the memo, Rove recounted how Cooper tried to question him about whether President Bush had been hurt by the new allegations Plame's husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, had been making.

The White House turned the e-mail over to prosecutors, and Rove told a grand jury about it last year during testimony in which he also acknowledged discussing Plame's covert work for the CIA with Cooper and syndicated columnist Robert Novak.

Rove, however, told the grand jury he first learned of Plame's CIA work from journalists, not government sources.

Just days before the e-mail, Plame's husband had written a newspaper opinion piece accusing the Bush administration of twisting prewar Iraq intelligence, including a "highly doubtful" report that Saddam Hussein bought nuclear materials from the African country of Niger."

Now even Steven Hadley confirms Rove took the info.....Yeah he just "happened" to get it from the media! What a joke, that line makes them all look stupid!!

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/fc/World/media_watch/feature_articles/SIG=12mnqj6f3;_ylt=Ap0qji1N2MFO4u.U4DaNZ09ZJ_wA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl/*http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071502080.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-rove15jul15,1,3458818.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

"But some legal experts said that too little was known about what Rove had known about Plame and when he had known it, and that it was therefore too soon to judge whether President Bush's close aide was in the clear. In any event, they said, special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald may pursue other charges, such as perjury or obstruction of justice, or he may decide against seeking any indictments.

Thursday marked the second anniversary of the publication of Plame's name in a syndicated column by Robert Novak. For more than 18 months, a Justice Department investigation led by Fitzgerald has been seeking to identify the administration sources used by Novak and other journalists covering the story. That led to the jailing last week of New York Times reporter Judith Miller for refusing to cooperate with the prosecutor.

Rove has been connected to the case through a conversation he had with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper days before the Novak column appeared, and through Cooper's subsequent e-mail to his editors indicating Rove had identified Plame to him in a brief phone conversation, though apparently not naming Plame. Cooper testified Wednesday about his conversation with Rove for 2 1/2 hours before a federal grand jury."

Now its getting good!!! REPUBLICANS=SOFT ON TREASON!

Talking points for Democrats:

Treason! Treason! Treason!

http://mediamatters.org/items/200504140008

"The CIA says, quote, "It's not the end of the world, since previous CIA work put the officer's name out there," and, quote, "We're not talking about someone who is doing deep espionage overseas." The CIA, although, says it hopes the officer's career is not adversely impacted."

SeekTruth, you might want to actually seek truth before reiterating inexact rubbish.

"Fulton Armstrong was a known CIA agent for years before he testified at the Bolton hearing."
--Posted by c_at_l_bob on July 16, 2005 at 01:10 PM

The "rules of engagement", if you will, at the Bolton hearing were that he be referred to as "Mr. Smith". The CIA had a reason for doing so. John Kerry did not obey the rules. That point is not discredited.

Why no responses to my comments about John Kerry and the 14th ammendment?

No person shall be a Senator ... who, having previously taken an oath, ... as an officer of the United States, ... to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have ... given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

It is a well-documented fact that Kerry met with the Communist North Vietnamese in Paris while he was still an **officer in the Navy Reserve** and we were still at war in Vietnam. These actions gave aid to the enemy in a time of war.

Kerry should not be a Senator without a 2/3 vote of Congress! If he were to apologize for his previous actions, as Jane Fonda has, I believe he would do better than a 2/3 vote. But, given that he refuses to apologize for making false claims while under oath in Senate testimony on June 6, 1971, I think that he would not receive the required 2/3 vote, if this were to be put to a vote. You can thank the Republicans for being kind to Kerry and overlooking his betrayal of our country.

Ok, I believe firmly that Rove will be indicted. All his press leaks that have come out in the past few days have not really helped him. Instead, we now know that he corroborated with no less than THREE different reporters on an undercover CIA agent. We also have Rove documented lying more than once. The media shills are trying to spin a nothing done wrong story but that just doesn't fly. Rove is in trouble and so is several other officials at the white house, and they know it. They are spinning lies in their defense to feed to the media. This will backfire because Fitzgerald will have a heads-up on their defense before they go to trial now that he knows what it will be.

John Kerry=irrelevant! Republicans spin themselves into a corner, supporting officers who commit treason!

Uh oh what's this that got found, it wasn't just Valerie Plame affected by the cover-blow operation.

"The Intelligence Challenge: Can We Trust Our President?

By Brent Cavan, Jim Marcinkowski, Larry Johnson, and Jane Doe

July 15, 2005

We trained and worked at the CIA with Valerie Plame. We presented the following statement at a hearing on Capitol Hill in October 2003. In light of the latest White House sanctioned assault on Valerie Plame and her character, our testimony remains relevant and accurate. All of us were undercover. Brent Cavan and Larry Johnson worked as analysts in the Directorate of Intelligence. Jim Marcinkowski and Jane Doe were case officers and served overseas. Jane Doe's real name is not being used because she was involved in counter terrorism operations and could be at risk if her identity were divulged. We've got each other's back.

We slogged through the same swamps on patrols, passed clandestine messages to each other, survived a simulated terrorist kidnapping and interrogation, kicked pallets from cargo planes, completed parachute jumps, and literally helped picked ticks off each other after weeks in the woods at a CIA training facility. We knew each other’s secrets. We shared our fears, failures, and successes.

Beyond supporting Mrs. Wilson with our moral support and prayers we want to send a clear message to the political operatives responsible for this. You are a traitor and you are our enemy. You should lose your job and probably should go to jail for blowing the cover of a clandestine intelligence officer. You have set a sickening precedent.

We joined the CIA to fight against foreign tyrants who used the threat of incarceration, torture, and murder to achieve their ends. They followed the rule of force, not the rule of law. We now find ourselves with an administration in the United States where some of its members have chosen to act like foreign tyrants. As loyal Americans and registered Republicans we implore President Bush to move quickly and decisively against those who, if not apprehended, will leave his Administration with the legacy of being the first to allow political operatives to out clandestine officers"

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/07/the_intelligenc.html

Very interesting! CIA agents across the board including Larry Johnson, Jim Marc and Jane Doe had their entire assets compromised due to this leak. Their NOC level intelligence was blown across all lines.

I guess the moral of the story is, REPUBLICANS: SOFT ON TREASON, STRONG TO SUPPORT TERROR! (the m.o.)

I really can't imagine what's coming up next!

all republican politicians and every idiot who has ever voted for one are just plain retards. anyone who can't see through these pigs are a waste of space. one thing i have learned in my life is never to trust anyone who hides behind religion. they are just a bunch of phony motherf***ers.

In the 2004 election, George W. Bush received 50.73% of the popular vote.

Since 1900, how many democratic presidential candidates have received an equal or greater percentage of the popular vote?

There are only 2 people, can you name them?

Data Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/U.S.-presidential-election

Hint: It’s been over 40 years since a Democratic presidential candidate did better than Bush did in 2004. Keep hoping on Hillary. Her husband didn’t reach 50% either time, and to quote one of your lines, “We won’t get fooled again!”

This is not related to current events, so don’t spin that it that way.

Early in the 2004 election cycle, fundrace.org had a page with three Indexes: GrassRoots Index, Devotion Index, and FatCats Index. They liked the page then, when the data gave the results they wanted.

The following were the leaders of the three indexes as of 11/18/2003:

GrassRoots Index: Who gets small contributions from all over America?
#1 Howard Dean

Devotion Index: Who inspires repeat giving and financial sacrifice?
#1 John Edwards

FatCats Index: Who gets large contributions from the wealthiest Americans?
#1 George W Bush

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20031118192025/http://www.fundrace.org/moneyindex.html

It's interesting how when the data changed later in the election cycle, and they no longer liked the results, they removed all links to this page:
http://www.fundrace.org/moneyindex.html.
As you can see for yourself, the final leaders of the three indexes are:

GrassRoots Index: Who gets small contributions from all over America?
#1 George W Bush

Devotion Index: Who inspires repeat giving and financial sacrifice?
#1 George W Bush

FatCats Index: Who gets large contributions from the wealthiest Americans?
#1 John F Kerry

Let the truth be told. Shame on you, fundrace.org, for removing links to this page.

The “God gap” is a very real phenomenon that the Democratic party must address seriously. From a lower perspective, uncountable numbers of middle-class Americans in key battleground states are willing to vote against their own and society’s economic interests because of it. From a higher perspective, according to the ancient Chinese concept of “the Mandate of Heaven,” or from the European “Divine Right of Kings,” those who ascend to control over government affairs and remain in that position always do so with the consent and support of any relevant deities. Whether this is the case or not, the self-appointed representatives of God’s will in America have seen to it that the Republicans have swept the government.

Consequently, the Democrats are obliged to ensure that they are right with God as a precondition for a lasting and just political victory. There are, of course, cases where they already are, such as with the environment. However, there are also others, such as certain social issues where I would say they are actively attempting to lead us in the wrong direction, due to a combination of misunderstanding and certain vocal elements within the party that are more interested in advancing their narrow self-interest over the public good, even as they paint they nefariously equate the two.

As an example of what I’m talking about, the civil rights movement started out as a good thing. Surely it is wrong for society to jail a minister for the “crime” of seeking justice. One might argue that a black man of course is interested in the rights of black men, but this does not concern society as a whole. However, where justice is concerned, it does concern society as a whole. Thus, most people share Dr. King’s dream today.

However, problems began when people started to equate Martin Luther King, Jr.’s struggle for justice and the realization of God’s Law in the face of the oppression of man’s with Betty Friedan’s seminal work of monumental naval-gazing, based on little more than a survey of her classmates and popular magazine articles. In fact, I would hazard that a majority of the members of the Democratic party equate the two to this day.

The legacy of Betty Friedan has set society back even as MLK’s moved it forward. This is because she groundlessly interpreted women’s rights not as suggesting that society ought to value the feminine and its role in society as equal to men, which it ought, but as suggesting that women would find fulfillment in performing male roles and by extension, vice-versa. This has left a legacy of confusion over gender roles within society generally that has yet to go away. With the Republicans in power, things have gotten somewhat better, but the problem within liberal circles nonetheless continues more or less unabated.

Confucious stressed that the relationship between husband and wife must be one based on attention to their different functions. From a more generalized perspective, it is the relationship between yin and yang that in the Taoist conception of the universe, gives rise to all things. Therefore we must take the Confucian viewpoint as correct, since it accords with the Tao, or Moral Law that describes the nature of Absolute Truth.

And yet, despite the baselessness of her claims and conclusions, Democrats take Betty Friedan more seriously than Confucious! In fact, like Confucious, Martin Luther King, Jr. also based his ideology on Moral Law. And therefore, the legacy of the civil rights movement as it began with Martin Luther King, Jr., should be seen as one of bringing society into accordance with Moral Law, rather than attempting to make people equal by fiat, which they are not, as Betty Friedan and her liberal successors have attempted to do.

However, liberals do not make the distinction. In fact, they seem to be not very concerned with Moral Law at all, or more to the point, think that Moral Law must conform to their conception of society and the world, rather than the other way around.

The main problem with Democrats, therefore, is that they fail to accord with the Tao, because they fail to grasp the distinction between male and female and the proper relationship between the two.

On the issue of gay rights, in particular, the Democrats are in direct opposition to it. This is the only issue that’s come up in the culture wars where God has made the issue of right and wrong explicitly clear. Democrats have unfortunately allowed homosexuals, rather than God, to inform their collective opinion and this has lead to the problem they find themselves in today.

The problem, simply stated, is this: the Democrats reject God and embrace fags.

The Republicans faced a not completely dissimilar crisis of values, or lack thereof, in the 90’s under Gingrich over the issue of tobacco. Although like all intoxicants, tobacco is physically and spiritually destructive, the GOP can be forgiven their ignorance of the issue as a moral one, due to the collective ignorance of society as a whole.

Many of GOP members of Congress were at that time, pawns of the tobacco industry, just as many Democrats are of gay activists today. We may note, tellingly, that as a result of the Republicans’ political support, big tobacco was able to confuse the scientific issues of public health even as they further confused the issue by framing it as one of “freedom,” “choice,” and “human rights,” using their various corrupt mouthpieces. Being so dependant upon the corruption of their patrons, many Republicans probably came to genuinely believe such insidious and self-serving propaganda, even as those that did not tended to toe the party line anyway, kept down by those who did and big tobacco’s vast sums of money. Against this backdrop of corruption and confusion, remarkably, the Republicans eventually realized the mistake of deriving political support from such a pernicious influence, came to their senses, bit the bullet, and sacrificed short-term political expediency by doing the right thing.

The question now is whether the Democrats, faced with similarly deriving political support from a self-serving and corrupting cabal who abuse the terms “choice,” “freedom,” and “human rights,” in the name of foisting their insidious agenda upon society, also have the requisite moral courage to sever their chains of corruption and turn on their former puppeteers as a matter of moral principle.

And more to the point, the question the Democrats must ask themselves is: will they continue to embrace the agenda of those who sow confusion at best and destruction at worst or will they embrace the legacy of MLK and Confucious in their efforts to bring society into accordance with Divine Law?

Sam Jew

mobile: +86 13916705620
home: +8621 51158698

Shanghai New Century Service Apartment
1011 Lu Jia Bang Lu #1406
Shanghai, China 200011

Now now SeekTruth aka SeekLies, no need to spin this one.

Bush only got 50% of the vote because there was fraud, in mass quantities.

http://www.bushcheated04.com

Since we know he cheated, and Tommy Noe played the fraud game with Rove in Ohio, there's no reason to bring up past nonsense.

And lets not forget the fact republicans have not recently won ANYTHING without cheating!!! What an interesting development, wouldn't ya say?

We have alot of learning to do!!! Uh oh, here's to the NEW year!!!!
nick

nick t,
You want to talk about fraud? Let's talk about Wisconsin:
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010427.php#010427

The bushcheated04 site you directed me to is classic Democratic fare. Rather than attack and mock the swiftvets, why not investigate the truth behind what they have to say? I challenge you to watch the "No Man Left Behind" video at
http://www.swiftvets.com/swiftvetsandpows/
Again, I challenge you to watch this video and still believe that one self-serving politician (Kerry) is telling the truth and that all of his peers in this video are lying. Seek Truth.

Plus even if "Kerry" was bad (irrelevant) there was still enough fraud which tipped the election!! http://www.votersunite.org

Its a sad day in the fake republican leadership circle!!!

"The misinformation being spread in the media about the Plame affair is alarming and damaging to the long-term security interests of the United States. Republicans' talking points are trying to savage Joe Wilson and, by implication, his wife, Valerie Plame, as liars. That is the truly big lie.

Plame was an undercover operations officer until outed in the press by Robert Novak. Novak's column was not an isolated attack. It was in fact part of a coordinated, orchestrated smear that we now know includes at least Karl Rove....

A few of my classmates, and Plame was one of these, became a non-official cover (NOC) officer. That meant she agreed to operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport. If caught in that status she would have been executed.

The lies by people like Victoria Toensing, Rep. Peter King and P.J. O'Rourke insist that Plame was nothing, just a desk jockey. Yet, until Novak betrayed her, she was still undercover and the company that was her front was still a secret to the world. When Novak outed her he also compromised her company and every individual overseas who had been in contact with that company and with her...

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5509192.html

Is this what republicans are about? I think real republicans know better!!

Sam:

I don't recognize you so I will assume that you are not a troll and just greatly mistaken. That may be a mistake.

And to begin with, I am a married guy that is deeply religious and active in my church, which I go to every Sunday. A lot of Democrats are, just we don't see the need to inject it into our political beliefs.

As to feminism, unfortunately the things that feminists fought for in the 1970's are still a problem today. Women don't get paid as well as men (not even for the same work in many professions-- they use a different 'job classification' but the work is nearly identical), don't get the promotions, and are still discriminated against in numerous state statutes.

Also, you clearly have never read much of Friedan. She never claimed that women should not be women, but rather that women deserved to be TREATED the same as men UNDER THE LAW. As to the relationship between men and women, modern feminists spend a lot of effort on trying to get men to be more responsible fathers (or are you suggesting that 'hit and run' fathers who get women pregnant and then disappear are somehow good for society?)

As to gay people, I have only one question: If being gay is against God's law, then why did he make gay people? There is an ever decreasing pool of people who continue to assert in the face of mounting scientific evidence to the contrary that gay people 'choose' to be that way. If you really believe this, then I would ask you (since you are presumably straight) if on one day, tomorrow for example, you could simply choose to be gay for a day, not feel any attraction at all for women and get yourself excited sexually by watching men's behinds. Answer is 'no' (and if you claim otherwise, I would call you a liar, since I know neither I nor any other straight person I've asked that has ever answered 'yes.') So, if God made gay people but to be gay was against his own laws, then he would be a cruel trickster. And, the God I know is NOT a cruel trickster!

Of course, in accordance with the doctrine of separation of Church and State (the same one that Republicans are always trying to erode) churches have every right to enforce their doctrine in regard to homosexuality, within their church. Where we as liberals break with conservatives, however, is that we believe that the LAW OF THE LAND should NOT discriminate. Anyone should have the right to visit their spouse in the hospital, and the same rights to inheritance, employee health benefits and other legal issues that should have nothing to do with sexuality, but they do because the laws discriminate.

"but rather that women deserved to be TREATED the same as men UNDER THE LAW."

Did you read anything I had to say? You totally missed the point, please re-read before I respond.

"If being gay is against God's law, then why did he make gay people?"

Wow, now you are really embarassing yourself. So, since God "made" murderers and child molesters you think that is in accordance with God's law? You are more confused than I thought

"Where we as liberals break with conservatives, however, is that we believe that the LAW OF THE LAND should NOT discriminate."

Geez, you are hopeless.

BREAKING NEWS: KARL ROVE "MAY" BE GETTING DRAGGED OUT!

Frank Rich and the New York Times, report Karl Rove may be throwing himself out of this criminal administration soon by resignation and will keep sinking the ship.

"Seasoned audiences of presidential scandal know that there's only one certainty ahead: the timing of a Karl Rove resignation. As always in this genre, the knight takes the fall at exactly that moment when it's essential to protect the king."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/opinion/17rich.html

WASHINGTON POST FRONT PAGE: Lewis "Scooter" Libby is the official source Judith Miller of the New York Times spinners, is protecting.

Lewis Libby may be official source for Novak, is chief counsel for Vice President Dick Cheney!

"...two sources say Miller spoke with Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, during the key period in July 2003 that is the focus of Fitzgerald's investigation.

The two sources, one who is familiar with Libby's version of events and the other with Miller's, said the previously undisclosed conversation occurred a few days before Plame's name appeared in Robert D. Novak's syndicated column on July 14, 2003. Miller and Libby discussed former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, Plame's husband, who had recently alleged that the Bush administration twisted intelligence in the run-up to the Iraq war, according to the source familiar with Libby's version.

It's not that Libby didn't give Miller a waiver, he gave all the reporters he spoke to a waiver. Miller isn't sure the waiver isn't coerced.

"Judy's view is that any purported waiver she got from anyone was not on the face of it sufficiently broad, clear and uncoerced," [laywer Floyd] Abrams said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071502080.html?referrer=emailarticle

Under fear of retaliation, Miller refuses to testify on what Libby(Cheney &Co) told her directly about Valerie Plame's name, and the NOC status of Brewster Jennings& Associates.

Get out the barbecue fellas, because now we are seeing the simmer pot fill up the White House!!

nick

Survivor Earth, The GOP'ers have been ordered off the planet, out of the solar system out of the Milky Way Galaxy!!!!!!!!!

perhaps a name is required...CIA-GATE or ROVE-GATE , the new watergate...

watching (Face the Nation with Bob Schieffer) this morn' and it appears from Schieffer's (that mirrors other reporter's) comments that the obvious is the case, (trolls included) are spinnin' and dirvertin' and it isn't working, only inviting more reporter and blogger attention...white house (and trolls) please continue the discourse!

I think that it is very interesting that some are speculating (see Murray Waas' 7/15/05 post on American Prospect) that Rove, Novak, and others may have collaborated on a cover story nullifying "Rovegate" in order to avoid any legal or public reprecussions.

I just saw Orin Hatch on Sundays CNN program.
I find it hard to address him as Senator. The mans ability to bold face lie is sickening to me. Americans are going to have to vomit the
lies regarding Rove that this Administration
is shoving down our throats.
To those on either side who participate in this
gross charade, beware,a American who loves this country will remember and remove you come election> I hope we startwith d with Orin Hatch.
Maybe its time we start a factual
LIARS LIST on all sides. As for Rove he has without any doubt in my mind committed the ultimate crime of TREASON and should pay.
But maybe the buck goes higher.
Maybe I shouldn't be so critical of the Administration why shouldn't they feel they can lie to the American people; after all, they got us to buy into a "WAR" against the wrong enemy.
And we still don't have Bin Laden.
Just one last thought why in the heck doesn't
someone ask Bush if he asked Rove "the obvious questions" and what were the answers.
RNC chair is on CNN now boy these people are something else. anyone notice that they seem to feel if they tell us they are XX number of time a certain lie eventually we will believe it.
Have to go Vomit again.

No matter how much mud is slung at Joe Wilson, the to plan to out Valerie Plame was hatching as early as March 2003, and Cheney, Libby, Rove, and Hadley were all in on it. It's pretty cute, all of them telling different reporters a piece of the story, then waiting to be called for verification, where they say "that's what I heard, too."

Sure they heard it, they all sat in a room and strageized how they'd release it.

Bush may not have known about it, but Cheney did. Domestic Presidet Rove and War President Cheney should both be out on their keesters.

Of Muddlers and Meddlers,

What can be told about rumors that grow,
Of truths now sold and bushes that rove,
Time is best spent justifying means,
For this is the game or so it seems,

Of muddlers and meddlers for truths obscured,
Oft-times require the lines to be blurred,
For shadows of doubt to thrive and exist,
Hidden are rules given a tweak or a twist…

By majority proxy power resides,
Through obfuscation voting decides,
Who shall wear the temporary crown,
When careful rumors and confusion abound?

Oh perpetrators of treachery, tricks and deceit,
Your lies add doubt and insult to injury,
To still great causes with still further to go,
To realize fruit from what has been sold,

But misplaced is our focus yet once again,
For it is us who demands results my friend,
With our eyes wide-shut to method or means,
On which the muddler and meddler leans!

america1st, those on the open threat like TreasonGate.

I'm curious about something and maybe some of you can help me. You guys spend a lot of time talking bad about the opposing party, who likewise spends a lot of time talking bad about you. You guys talk about one party or the other being "in power". Could any of you clarify something for me? Do you not understand that both parties are in power? Democrats and Republicans control the country. All of the rest of us have little or no influence.

One party talks about how bad the other is, and frankly, I just don't get it. No party that I am aware of is not rife with hypocrisy. In fact, the very word "politics" suggests coruption, power, and greed in the minds of many many people. You're all bad. Your ideals are wrong and certainly the ways you try to achieve them are wrong, Democrats and Republicans alike.

There is a reason most people in this country don't vote. Did you guys know that was true? Check the numbers. On a federal level and often times on a state level, most people don't vote. Do know what that means? It means that no matter who wins an election, most people didn't vote for them. Do you know why that is? It's not because they are lazy, and it's not because they are apathetic. At least, not the majority of them. I understand that most of you will deny that, but how could you not? To admit that there is something fundamentally wrong with our system would put you guys out of influence. Most poeple, more often than not, who don't vote straight up refuse to. The reason? Because they have no faith in any of you, Republicans or Democrats. They do not trust you to have their best intrests in mind. They refuse to choose the lesser of two evils. In fact often times, there isn't a lesser evil. You are all awful.

So next time to you start spouting all of your "this is what's best for the country" catch phrases, keep in mind that you don't represent the country. Any of you. You only represent a small percentage of it, and it's getting smaller all the time.

I mean, why would anybody who has any real knowledge of how nations are born and die join a political party? What is wrong with you people?

Karl Rove had the hots for Peter Billingsley!!! I think it was because they both have flesh colored hair.

Rove wanted to have Billingsley in the worst way. But alas, Karl Rove is no Michael Jackson!

He knew he could never lure Billingsley into his boring D.C. home, so he did the next best thing. He had facial reconstruction to make himself look exactly like Peter Billingsley!

Now, all he has to do is look in the mirror when he pounds the angry inch. Unless, of course, his good friend Jeff "whistle" Gannon sleeps over. Then Rove becomes the whisle blo er, again!

I thought I was the only one to make the Rove-Billingsley connection. But I'm not:

http://theunelected.com/karlrove.htm

KevinSchmidt --
You are totally right. Karl 'anti-gay rights' Rove is definitely very gay himself. I read his description of when he first set eyes G. W Bush back in the early 70's. It was high romance talking. All I could say is, "Wow this guy, Rove is in love with young George W." As to Jeff Gannon, Mr. 'Hot Military Stud' for hire, what is he doing making house calls in the wee hours at the White House? Jeff Gannon is a bonafide male prostitute. It annoys me the way the Democrats are not pouncing on this material and making a major league case out of it. And god forbid the Democrats wimp out on their pursuit of Karl Rove and the Valerie Plame scandel. That would be unforgivable.

america1st, those on the open thread like TreasonGate.
Posted by SandyH on July 17, 2005 at 05:47 PM

hello all,

evening news is revealing new revelations...but i’m think i’m finally sorting it out...since bush was once the (part?) owner of the texas rangers baseball team perhaps he borrowed the lines for his latest “mum” by the once famous comedy duo, Abbott and Costello

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml

who’s on 1st (rove), what’s on 2nd (cheney’s aide) , and i don’t know is on 3rd (not identified yet)... new white-house team’s name to be determined...

time to take a walk and perhaps i’ll hum john fogarty’s song, “put me in coach i’m ready to play.”

A Citizens' Award for Karl Rove (snicker)....

http://aliberaldose.blogspot.com/2005/07/while-youre-in-neighborhood.html

KARL ROVE: A TRAITOR WORKING FOR THE TERRORISTS

"Although lower-level White House staffers typically handle most contacts with the media, Rove and Libby began personally communicating with reporters about Wilson, prosecutors were told.

A source directly familiar with information provided to prosecutors said Rove's interest was so strong that it prompted questions in the White House. When asked at one point why he was pursuing the diplomat so aggressively, Rove reportedly responded: "He's a Democrat." Rove then cited Wilson's campaign donations, which leaned toward Democrats, the person familiar with the case said.

The disclosures about the officials' roles illustrate White House concern about Wilson's July 6, 2003, article, which challenged the administration's assertion that Iraq had sought to purchase nuclear materials. Wilson's article appeared as Rove and other Bush aides were preparing the 2004 reelection campaign strategy, which was built largely around the president's response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

It is not surprising that White House officials would be upset by an attack like Wilson's or seek to respond aggressively. But special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald is examining whether they or others crossed the legal line by improperly disclosing classified information, or whether they perjured themselves in testifying later about their actions. Both Rove and Libby have testified.

News of the high-level interest in discrediting Wilson comes as White House defenders, most notably officials at the Republican National Committee, argue that Rove has been vindicated of suspicion that he was a primary source of the leak. Knowingly revealing the identity of a covert operative is a federal crime.

Regardless of Rove's legal liability, the description of his role runs contrary to earlier White House statements that Rove and Libby were not involved in the unmasking of Wilson's wife, and it suggests they were part of a campaign to discredit Wilson.

Wilson, a career Foreign Service officer who served in Iraq and several African nations, was sent by the CIA in 2002 to investigate whether Iraq had attempted to purchase nuclear materials from Niger. His New York Times article declaring that he had found no credible evidence of such an attempt despite the administration's continued claims that there had been one unleashed charges from White House officials that he was a partisan.

White House officials contended that he had wrongly indicated that he was sent on his mission by Cheney. In fact, Wilson had said in the article that the trip was inspired by questions raised by Cheney's office.

Eight days after Wilson's article was published, a syndicated column by Robert Novak questioned the credibility of Wilson's trip, suggesting that it had been arranged with the help of Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, at the CIA. "

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-leak18jul18,0,4779848.story?coll=la-home-headlines

So that's why ROVER was so interested in Wilson, he even goes out and flat out says he's a democrat! What a sad miserable piece of crap, he flat out lied to the jury....

dan tet: You have a real strange way of talking about things if you think the democrats are being hurt more than the republicans.

The democrats now have an official spine, they aren't being hurt, just the opposite: They are winning more favor by the day the more they stand up to these bastards!

http://biz.yahoo.com/ft/050717/fto071720051741223246.html?.v=1

Hey, maybe that's what you wanted to know! If you want the nice, kind, polite democratic party go join the DLC for all anyone cares!!! http://www.dlc.org

They need new recruits for their heartless corporation drawn greed patrol......

nick

Roy,
Democrats don't talk or comment on homosexuality since most feel that it's wrong to attack people for being homosexuals. As a result, Democrats generally won't use homosexuality as a basis of an attack.

If someone said something, and Rove attacked back, Democrats couldn't continue the attack without being viewed as anti-gay.

dan-tet,
If you even read this, you have a point that deserves a response, so here it is.

You equate the elected politicians to be the only people in the Democratic or Republican parties in your post. The reality is that the majority of people who consider themselves Democrats or Republicans are the average people who have just as little power as you claim to have.

I personally have no power except the desire and will to try to improve things. A LOT of people in the Democratic party dislike the politicians on BOTH sides for not stepping up for what is best for the people in this country. We may speak out against Republicans, but we also tend to be VERY critical of Democratic representitives who vote with Republicans on issues that are bad for the people in this country. As a result, there has been a growing movement that is pushing to have higher quality Democrats be elected to office instead of the old-school politicians.

The thing that seperates the Democrats from Republicans is that Democrats as a whole, not just candidates, but as a whole, try to look at what's best for this country as a whole, meaning the people who live and work in this country. Republicans on the other hand, tend to believe in a trickle down theory where if you help businesses, it will eventually help the people by providing jobs. Note how many companies have moved their manufacturing and other jobs to other countries which leaves fewer jobs in THIS country.

The people who post in these "blogs" are speaking up in the hopes that they are heard by the people with the power to do something and will respond. There are a few that not only speak up, but also are acting in their local areas to try to improve things.

Those who don't vote because they don't "like" either candidate need to look at it as a case of "which is the lesser evil". George W. Bush was pushing for religion and conservative values without saying or doing anything to help the average American. If you are out of work, most Republicans don't care. If factories are moving out of this country, leaving thousands of people out of work, the Republicans as a whole(not all) don't care as long as the companies continue to put money into their pockets.

I'm not saying that all or even most Democratic elected officials are much better, but from the perspective of party vs. party, Democrats are more idealistic as a whole. The problem is how to get the uncorrupt and idealists into office instead of those who just play the system to get into office.

On July 18, 1969, a couple of nights before Armstrong took that "giant step for mankind," Ted Kennedy took a turn onto a narrow bridge in Chappaquiddick. The passenger in his car that night was Mary Jo Kopechne, a pretty, blond Capitol Hill secretary, just about to celebrate her 29th birthday. The two events are inextricably linked in my mind because my husband, who was a correspondent for a British newspaper, instead of reporting on our glorious odyssey into space, ended up at police headquarters on Martha's Vineyard covering that sordid story.

In case you have forgotten or never knew the details, Ted and five of his pals and six women known as the "Boiler Room Girls" who had worked in Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign, cut short by his assassination the year before, were weekending together. Afterward, the men claimed it was just a couple of days of innocent fun to thank the girls for their help, though the six guys were all married but partying without their wives, and the young women were all single. One of the "Boiler Room Girls" is now big-time New York literary agent Esther Newberg, who was Mary Jo's roommate for the weekend. Like everyone involved in the incident, Esther remains close-mouthed about what occurred.

What everyone testified at the time was that Kennedy and Mary Jo left the party before midnight. Kennedy said he was driving her back to the ferry to Edgartown, and took a wrong turn, though he was very familiar with the roads on the island. His car toppled off a narrow wooden-planked bridge, a bridge that is in the opposite direction to the road that led to the ferry but is on the way to the beach. The car landed upside-down in eight feet of water and, Kennedy claimed that after escaping, he tried unsuccessfully to rescue Mary Jo. He then staggered back to the party, called out his cousin Joe Gargan and his pal Paul Markham, to return to the scene. What he didn't do, inexplicably, was seek help in a lighted house only yards from the bridge or use the fire-alarm phone at a fire station he passed on the way back to the party.

Right from the start, the reporters who arrived at the scene were skeptical of his story, skeptical even of how he claimed he got back to Edgartown that night. Markham and Gargan said when they drove to the ferry landing — the ferry had stopped running by then — Kennedy took them by surprise by jumping in the water, and swimming across the channel towards Edgartown. They assumed, they said, he would report the accident that night to the police. Instead Kennedy went back to his hotel, ostensibly to change his clothes but instead, went downstairs to complain about a noisy party that was going on.

The next morning Markham and Gargan were waiting for Kennedy when he arrived at 9 A.M. on the first ferry. The ferry operator said Kennedy appeared to be in a jovial mood, but probably only until he was told that his car had been found. Only then did Kennedy return and report the accident.

Some reporters, primarily the foreign press, did ask tough questions. For example: Did Kennedy really swim back to Edgartown that night? No one saw him with wet clothes and my husband, for one, interviewed a young man who had tied up his rowboat at the Chappaquiddick dock on Saturday night. When he got there on Sunday morning, he said, it had been retied and with what he called a "land lubber's knot."

But the whole incident was overshadowed by the worldwide coverage of the moonwalk. Besides, all the people involved had, by midday, left Martha's Vineyard and headed home. When the police went to the cottage where the party had taken place, all they found were some washed Coca-Cola bottles. There was no one to interview and no one who would talk then — or ever. Besides, Kennedy was treated like Massachusetts royalty by the local police chief, Dominick Arena, who even gave up his office so that Kennedy could make telephone calls to advisers and lawyers in privacy.

It may have been the last time when a scandal was so under-investigated, so quickly dispatched — and the man involved seemed to get off so easily for what he had done. A week later, Kennedy, who arrived in court wearing a neck brace, pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and was given a two-month suspended sentence and a year's probation.

On July 18, 1969, a couple of nights before Armstrong took that "giant step for mankind," Ted Kennedy took a turn onto a narrow bridge in Chappaquiddick. The passenger in his car that night was Mary Jo Kopechne, a pretty, blond Capitol Hill secretary, just about to celebrate her 29th birthday. The two events are inextricably linked in my mind because my husband, who was a correspondent for a British newspaper, instead of reporting on our glorious odyssey into space, ended up at police headquarters on Martha's Vineyard covering that sordid story.

In case you have forgotten or never knew the details, Ted and five of his pals and six women known as the "Boiler Room Girls" who had worked in Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign, cut short by his assassination the year before, were weekending together. Afterward, the men claimed it was just a couple of days of innocent fun to thank the girls for their help, though the six guys were all married but partying without their wives, and the young women were all single. One of the "Boiler Room Girls" is now big-time New York literary agent Esther Newberg, who was Mary Jo's roommate for the weekend. Like everyone involved in the incident, Esther remains close-mouthed about what occurred.

What everyone testified at the time was that Kennedy and Mary Jo left the party before midnight. Kennedy said he was driving her back to the ferry to Edgartown, and took a wrong turn, though he was very familiar with the roads on the island. His car toppled off a narrow wooden-planked bridge, a bridge that is in the opposite direction to the road that led to the ferry but is on the way to the beach. The car landed upside-down in eight feet of water and, Kennedy claimed that after escaping, he tried unsuccessfully to rescue Mary Jo. He then staggered back to the party, called out his cousin Joe Gargan and his pal Paul Markham, to return to the scene. What he didn't do, inexplicably, was seek help in a lighted house only yards from the bridge or use the fire-alarm phone at a fire station he passed on the way back to the party.

Right from the start, the reporters who arrived at the scene were skeptical of his story, skeptical even of how he claimed he got back to Edgartown that night. Markham and Gargan said when they drove to the ferry landing — the ferry had stopped running by then — Kennedy took them by surprise by jumping in the water, and swimming across the channel towards Edgartown. They assumed, they said, he would report the accident that night to the police. Instead Kennedy went back to his hotel, ostensibly to change his clothes but instead, went downstairs to complain about a noisy party that was going on.

The next morning Markham and Gargan were waiting for Kennedy when he arrived at 9 A.M. on the first ferry. The ferry operator said Kennedy appeared to be in a jovial mood, but probably only until he was told that his car had been found. Only then did Kennedy return and report the accident.

Some reporters, primarily the foreign press, did ask tough questions. For example: Did Kennedy really swim back to Edgartown that night? No one saw him with wet clothes and my husband, for one, interviewed a young man who had tied up his rowboat at the Chappaquiddick dock on Saturday night. When he got there on Sunday morning, he said, it had been retied and with what he called a "land lubber's knot."

But the whole incident was overshadowed by the worldwide coverage of the moonwalk. Besides, all the people involved had, by midday, left Martha's Vineyard and headed home. When the police went to the cottage where the party had taken place, all they found were some washed Coca-Cola bottles. There was no one to interview and no one who would talk then — or ever. Besides, Kennedy was treated like Massachusetts royalty by the local police chief, Dominick Arena, who even gave up his office so that Kennedy could make telephone calls to advisers and lawyers in privacy.

It may have been the last time when a scandal was so under-investigated, so quickly dispatched — and the man involved seemed to get off so easily for what he had done. A week later, Kennedy, who arrived in court wearing a neck brace, pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and was given a two-month suspended sentence and a year's probation.

On July 18, 1969, a couple of nights before Armstrong took that "giant step for mankind," Ted Kennedy took a turn onto a narrow bridge in Chappaquiddick. The passenger in his car that night was Mary Jo Kopechne, a pretty, blond Capitol Hill secretary, just about to celebrate her 29th birthday. The two events are inextricably linked in my mind because my husband, who was a correspondent for a British newspaper, instead of reporting on our glorious odyssey into space, ended up at police headquarters on Martha's Vineyard covering that sordid story.

In case you have forgotten or never knew the details, Ted and five of his pals and six women known as the "Boiler Room Girls" who had worked in Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign, cut short by his assassination the year before, were weekending together. Afterward, the men claimed it was just a couple of days of innocent fun to thank the girls for their help, though the six guys were all married but partying without their wives, and the young women were all single. One of the "Boiler Room Girls" is now big-time New York literary agent Esther Newberg, who was Mary Jo's roommate for the weekend. Like everyone involved in the incident, Esther remains close-mouthed about what occurred.

What everyone testified at the time was that Kennedy and Mary Jo left the party before midnight. Kennedy said he was driving her back to the ferry to Edgartown, and took a wrong turn, though he was very familiar with the roads on the island. His car toppled off a narrow wooden-planked bridge, a bridge that is in the opposite direction to the road that led to the ferry but is on the way to the beach. The car landed upside-down in eight feet of water and, Kennedy claimed that after escaping, he tried unsuccessfully to rescue Mary Jo. He then staggered back to the party, called out his cousin Joe Gargan and his pal Paul Markham, to return to the scene. What he didn't do, inexplicably, was seek help in a lighted house only yards from the bridge or use the fire-alarm phone at a fire station he passed on the way back to the party.

Right from the start, the reporters who arrived at the scene were skeptical of his story, skeptical even of how he claimed he got back to Edgartown that night. Markham and Gargan said when they drove to the ferry landing — the ferry had stopped running by then — Kennedy took them by surprise by jumping in the water, and swimming across the channel towards Edgartown. They assumed, they said, he would report the accident that night to the police. Instead Kennedy went back to his hotel, ostensibly to change his clothes but instead, went downstairs to complain about a noisy party that was going on.

The next morning Markham and Gargan were waiting for Kennedy when he arrived at 9 A.M. on the first ferry. The ferry operator said Kennedy appeared to be in a jovial mood, but probably only until he was told that his car had been found. Only then did Kennedy return and report the accident.

Some reporters, primarily the foreign press, did ask tough questions. For example: Did Kennedy really swim back to Edgartown that night? No one saw him with wet clothes and my husband, for one, interviewed a young man who had tied up his rowboat at the Chappaquiddick dock on Saturday night. When he got there on Sunday morning, he said, it had been retied and with what he called a "land lubber's knot."

But the whole incident was overshadowed by the worldwide coverage of the moonwalk. Besides, all the people involved had, by midday, left Martha's Vineyard and headed home. When the police went to the cottage where the party had taken place, all they found were some washed Coca-Cola bottles. There was no one to interview and no one who would talk then — or ever. Besides, Kennedy was treated like Massachusetts royalty by the local police chief, Dominick Arena, who even gave up his office so that Kennedy could make telephone calls to advisers and lawyers in privacy.

It may have been the last time when a scandal was so under-investigated, so quickly dispatched — and the man involved seemed to get off so easily for what he had done. A week later, Kennedy, who arrived in court wearing a neck brace, pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and was given a two-month suspended sentence and a year's probation.

You are totally right. Karl 'anti-gay rights' Rove is definitely very gay himself. I read his description of when he first set eyes G. W Bush back in the early 70's. It was high romance talking. All I could say is, "Wow this guy, Rove is in love with young George W." As to Jeff Gannon, Mr. 'Hot Military Stud' for hire, what is he doing making house calls in the wee hours at the White House? Jeff Gannon is a bonafide male prostitute. It annoys me the way the Democrats are not pouncing on this material and making a major league case out of it. And god forbid the Democrats wimp out on their pursuit of Karl Rove and the Valerie Plame scandel. That would be unforgivable.

This is the sad state of the DNC. Between your angry little man at the helm and this type of sophomoric mud slinging nobody takes you seriously. Enjoy your irrelevancy.

I went on Republican.org sight and it is all old news. They are saying nothing.Don't you think they would be debating this issue about Rove? They are silent. Where is the spin. Why are the Republican sights mum.

What can we do? The GOP says she had not been an agent for 7years or so? Well now she can't ever be an agent again. Maybe she should sue the White House for ruining her career? Rove also says he didn't give her name? That statement is like kindergarden! If you cause an agent to be exposed with your hints, etc. isn't that still a crime? At lease it should be negligence like when you have an accident and you kill someone if you were negligent you still have to pay for the crime, right? I don't understand why this Administration has so much power? What can a Nation do when you have all three branches in the GOP majority? I feel very afraid and powerless. How did our Nation get in this condition? I hope and pray enough people see the injustice of the GOP and will vote us out of this mess? In the next hour wouldn't be too soon.