The new defense is that Karl Rove was not the source for Novak, but the other way around? If that's the case, who was Novak's source? He doesn't have CIA clearance from what I understand.

Turning this into a chicken vs. the egg debate won't work because the leak had to come from somewhere. And assuming this is true that Novak was Rove's source, he's still in the wrong leaking it to Cooper

How much does it take before the American public will unite and demand impeachment for this bunch of corrupt idiots in the WH? It would seem that with all the lies from day one, the complete deceptive practices, the pre-emptive war leading to many thousands of the deaths of innocent people, the Downing Street memos and now this treasonous act, that the special prosecutor would have plenty of ammo for positive action. Unless he too is in Bush's pocket.

UNDERSTAND THAT ROVE MAY NOW FACE PERJURY CHARGES! HE LIED ABOUT HIS TESTOMONY!!
ROVE TESTIFIED TO FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS THAT HE LEARNED PLAME'S -NAME- FROM NOVAK:

Times says that Rove has told federal investigators that he received a telephone call from columnist Bob Novak on July 8, 2003. In that call, the source tells the Times, Rove "learned from the columnist the NAME of . . . Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq."

YET A YEAR LATER, ROVE CLAIMS HE HAD NOT KNOWN THE AGENT'S NAME:

Rove “I didn’t know her NAME.” CNN -2004

THIS IS A BALDFACE LIE! HIS TESTOMONY PROVES HE KNEW HER NAME THREE DAYS BEFORE HE SPOKE TO COOPER!

WE NOW HAVE PROOF THAT ROVE HAS LIED IN THIS INVESTIGATION.

IF THE TIMES ARTICLE IS TRUE, AND ROVE DENIES IT, THEN HE WILL PERJUR HIMSELF FURTHER. THIS EXPLAINS THE DEAFENING SILENCE FROM THE WHITEHOUSE!

test 4

Why was Rove commenting on -- much less verifying -- info about anyone's CIA identity? It's like he had set up shop and was selling secrets. I wonder what the price was for confirmation?

I'm also beginning to wonder if there were more than TWO top White House officials leaking Plame's identity. Unless, Bolton or Tenet were leaking it from the CIA (another interesting proposition), the info had to come from those who had access to the info at the White House.

In the Yahoo article on the internet last night Rove's grand jury testitmony had him saying that when Novak called he said he had heard a similar report from another reporter "who he could not remember" any longer. Novak has an informer. The other reporter had an informer. They both were instructed to call Rove for verification.

The plot thickens?

With all this Sh^% swirling around the Whitehouse over Rove's big mouth and bad memory, I say it's time for a courtesy flush! I live 20 miles outside Washington, and from where I sit this whole situation STINKS! My honest opinion on why the Prez is not saying anything is that his butt is on the line too. Tricky Dick has gotta be rolling over in his grave. To think he resigned over a few DNC documents getting stolen by a sneak squad! Overt acts to sabotage the careers of CIA agents, by blowing their covers while on undercover assignment, in support of wartime intelligence gathering is a crime, and the maximum penalty is DEATH. I'll build the gallows for free! Hang 'im High, Mr. President! We're counting on you to restore at least a hint of morality to the GOP. You rode the "decency" vote to the Oval Office twice, now act like you've got a set, and do what needs doin'!

X-Republican, and Proud of it!

The RNC is slandering Joe Wilson by claiming he lied in saying that Cheney sent him to Niger. However, Wilson never said that. As a matter of fact, Wilson said the opposite! He said that Cheney never even knew about his trip to Niger.

WILSON: "Well, look, it's absolutely true that NEITHER the vice president nor Dr. Rice nor even George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger. What they did, what the office of the vice president did, and, in fact, I believe now from Mr. Libby's statement, it was probably the vice president himself... They asked essentially that we follow up on this report -- that the AGENCY follow up on the report. So it was a question that went to the CIA briefer from the Office of the Vice President."

The RNC has to lie about Wilson in order to cover up the previous lies of this scandel.

Another thing. Who leaked Rove's testomony to the grand jury yesterday? I think Rove himself did!

Let’s hold those responsible for the outing of Plame. Let’s also hold responsible Senators Kerry and Lugar responsible for their outing of Fulton Armstrong, of the National Intelligence Council. They too should be stripped of any security clearance and should be dismissed from all duties – fired. After all – outing an undercover person is treasonous. They too are guilty of treason and should be thrown out of the Senate.

I applaud every Republican willing to look at this issue objectively.

However, many conservatives continue to disseminate the GOP talking points. I've written a point-by-point take-down of one such effort, and included, in that post, links to other blogs that have done the same.

I think it would be great if this site could serve as a central resource to rebut the assertions in the GOP talking points on this issue.

[and as a side note, this is my first comment here; hi everyone!]

We forget the reason this 'architect' needed to "out" Ms Plame. The white house was furious with her husband, Wilson. Why? Because he dared to challenge the information from Niger as valid. He dared to confront the administration in the time of lies leading us into war. The Bush administration was selling a whole WMD package, Wilson was getting in the way, the architect took out a few studs so the wall could fall down.
We are uniting behind this, we must now demand the media investigate. Where are the investigators? Are they all reporters only?
And shouldn't Judith Miller be out of jail by now?

We forget the reason this 'architect' needed to "out" Ms Plame. The white house was furious with her husband, Wilson. Why? Because he dared to challenge the information from Niger as valid. He dared to confront the administration in the time of lies leading us into war. The Bush administration was selling a whole WMD package, Wilson was getting in the way, the architect took out a few studs so the wall could fall down.
We are uniting behind this, we must now demand the media investigate. Where are the investigators? Are they all reporters only?
And shouldn't Judith Miller be out of jail by now?

I feel a little sheepish about just how much I'm enjoying watching Scott McClellan twist in the wind in the last few days. The gravity of the issue notwithstanding...this is karma in action, baby! All that oily bad energy that Karl Rove has oozed onto the American psyche has finally made its cosmic U-turn and is well on its way to smacking him upside his head -- which looks
suspiciously like Baby Face Nelson...coincidence? I think not.

In any case, hopefully the White House Press Corps will continue to leverage its newfound testicular fortitude and break down the formula in plainspeak:

(1) outing of Valerie Plume
+ (1) punishing Joe Wilson for not finding that pesky yellowcake in Niger and writing about it
+ (1) concocting bogus reasons for waging war
+ ($181 billion) war price tag
+ (67,000) lives lost in Iraq and Afghanistan
= A scandal that makes Watergate a rigged homecoming queen election

Tatteredcoat,
YOU HAVE TO go to RNC.org and post this "point by point" take down. Of course it would never make it past the censors, but it if it were to get through, it would be mindblowing to the parrots/sheep-ple over there.

Rove Learned CIA Agent's Name From Novak

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer
11 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story.

The conversation eventually turned to Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration's use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said.

Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Niger, according to the source.

Novak's column, citing two Bush administration officials, appeared six days later, touching off a political firestorm and leading to a federal criminal investigation into who leaked Plame's undercover identity. That probe has ensnared presidential aides and reporters in a two-year legal battle.

Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson's wife from another member of the news media but he could not recall which reporter had told him about it first, the person said.

When Novak inquired about Wilson's wife working for the CIA, Rove indicated he had heard something like that, according to the source's recounting of the grand jury testimony.

Rove told the grand jury that three days later, he had a phone conversation with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper and — in an effort to discredit some of Wilson's allegations — informally told Cooper that he believed Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, though he never used her name, the source said.

An e-mail Cooper recently provided the grand jury shows Cooper reported to his magazine bosses that Rove had described Wilson's wife in a confidential conversation as someone who "apparently works" at the CIA.

Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, said Thursday his client truthfully testified to the grand jury and expected to be exonerated.

"Karl provided all pertinent information to prosecutors a long time ago," Luskin said. "And prosecutors confirmed when he testified most recently in October 2004 that he is not a target of the investigation."

In an interview on CNN earlier Thursday before the latest revelation, Wilson kept up his criticism of the White House, saying Rove's conduct was an "outrageous abuse of power ... certainly worthy of frog-marching out of the White House."

Wilson also said "my wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."

In an interview Friday, Wilson said his comment was meant to reflect that his wife lost her ability to be a covert agent because of the leak, not that she had stopped working for the CIA beforehand.

His wife's "ability to do the job she's been doing for close to 20 years ceased from the minute Novak's article appeared; she ceased being a clandestine officer," he said.

Federal law prohibits government officials from divulging the identity of an undercover intelligence officer. But in order to bring charges, prosecutors must prove the official knew the officer was covert and nonetheless knowingly outed his or her identity.

Rove's conversations with Novak and Cooper took place just days after Wilson suggested in a New York Times opinion piece that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

Democrats continued this week to sharpen their attacks, accusing Rove of compromising a CIA operative's identity just to discredit the political criticism of her husband.

On Thursday, Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada pressed for legislation to strip Rove of his clearance for classified information, which he said President Bush should have done already. Instead, Reid said, the Bush administration has attacked its critics: "This is what is known as a cover-up. This is an abuse of power."

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said Democrats were resorting to "partisan war chants."

Across the Capitol, Rep. Rush Holt (news, bio, voting record), D-N.J., introduced legislation for an investigation that would compel senior administration officials to turn over records relating to the Plame disclosure.

Pressed to explain its statements of two years ago that Rove wasn't involved in the leak, the White House refused to do so this week.

"If I were to get into discussing this, I would be getting into discussing an investigation that continues and could be prejudging the outcome of the investigation," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

Thanks for that suggestion, tird_blossum_picker. However, a visit to RNC.org convinced me that everything is going just swell for our country here and abroad . . . I had no idea we had so much good news to celebrate!

This one is slipping away from us too. What the hell is wrong with us. We missed on Delay, Downing Street Memo puttered and died, now we are losing the fight on Rove. We are pathetic.

Pat

Posted by Pat on July 15, 2005 at 01:08 PM

What indication do you have that we are losing?

I find this Rove/Novak connection to be VERY interesting, since it has worked for them in the past. I cannot recall the specifics, but Rove DID use Novak for a local political campaign years ago. Novak was the reporter who put into print some smear and lies about Rove's political opponent, which resulted, of course, in Rove's candidate winning.

The fact that they are "connected" again in recent times suggests that this is a pattern of behavior. And, let's not forget that Rove has LOTS of behavior patterns which are questionable. Hence, motive, opportunity, and past behavior all point (in bright neon lights) to the fact that Rove is a slimeball who will step on everyone and anyone to meet his objectives.

Come on, Dems. Hang tough and hang together. Fight these bullies and TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK!!!!

Lying about a private sexual encounter led to a multi-million dollar investigation and subsequent impeachment proceeding. Apparently lying about national security is a lesser sin.

Tattered Coat, your point-by-point is an awesome piece of investigative work. Great job!
Our president's "loyalty" to Rove is just as misplaced as the WMD that we attacked Iraq over.
We deserve better than this from our president and his staff. This is just one more example of the screw-up and move-up rule of appointed officals under the reign of George II.

www.fladems.com

CADem, don't you recall that Starr's "discovery" of MonicaGate came after he had already wasted $millions persecuting anyone and everyone that the Clintons knew, before Bill was elected President? The impeachment was a sham, and I have to give Bill props for the stones he showed in staring that bullet down. I guess he knew there was nothing "impeachable' in his actions, no matter how deceitful they may have been. As much embarassament as the lunacy of the investigation and senate hearings into Bill's poor taste in women caused our nation, that was ALL that the impeachment procedings accomplished. HOWEVER, in this case there is a smoking gun, and a federal crime under investigation. I hope our leaders in the House and Senate have the will and courage to do what they must when the evidence is put to the light.

So now Rove says that Novak told him who Wilson's wife was and that she was CIA??? Well who told Novak??? He didn't just pull it out the air!!! Uh uh that wild haired story ain't working either.

You know as well as I do Mr. White House that according to federal policy, until this investigation is over EVERYTHING is supposed to be suspended for Karl Rove and that includes clearances.

And lets not forget something here: if Karl Rove leaked info to a journalist whose to say he wouldn't do to someone against this country!!!

This one is slipping away from us too. What the hell is wrong with us. We missed on Delay, Downing Street Memo puttered and died, now we are losing the fight on Rove. We are pathetic.

Pat

Posted by Pat on July 15, 2005 at 01:08 PM

No we are not Pat! Why??? Because though we the public haven't put it all together yet there is a thread running through Rove's leak, the Downing St. Memo and the intercepts that Sen. Biden wants for the hearings on Bolton. All thre are connected, but just haven't figured out how yet.

Now the link between the Downing St. Memo and Rove's leak is that the memo states how Bush wanted justification for going to war and Rove's leak involved Ambassador Wilson who went against the administration in saying that there were no WMD to blame on going to war. And as for the intercepts, hey if there were not incriminating evidence of ALL kinds the White House wouldn't be so adamont on them not going out.

I am completely puzzled over the actions and comments of most republicans. Could it possibly be a flaw in their genes that cause them to become completely stupid? I find it unfathomable that they can see nothing wrong in anything this president has done in the past five years. And before that several years as Texas governor. Yes, he was a liar and knew nothing but deceit even then. Richard Nixon was forced from office for much less than this yahoo has done and his only crime was being stupid. My father was a staunch republican for his entire life but he had the good sense to know when something was not right. Now this present crop cannot recognize any wrong doing that even a child can see. All they can do is scream "partisan smear". They cannot recognize treason when it hits them between the eyes. Gotta be the genes.

THE BOOK OF ROVE

Bush is my shepherd, I shall not think. He taketh away my bankruptcy protection, my farm and my sink. As I lay here in the hospital staring at death, his congressmen slander judges while ignoring the national debt. Though I walk through the valley of the oil in Iraq, I’m assured less VA benefits if I ever get back. For Bush is the glory and Rove the power when gas prices rise ever higher and higher. Woe is the nation when Bush helps the rich, while me and my family are treated like a abusive mans bitch.

I heard the RNC chairman say on TV this morning that the real culprit in this entire mess is none other than Joe Wilson. Can you believe that? This guy outs his own wife because, oh, let's see, she wanted him to take out the garbage last night? Or she griped because he didn't put the cat out? Makes sense to this White House bunch.

test

Today we learn that Mrs Wilson wasn't a clandestine officer at the time of the Novak report. Further reports point out she hasn't been in a clandestine role for over 5-years and her neighbor and friends knew she worked for the CIA. Seems like any good reporter could find out that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. Guess that pretty well closes the door on all of this BS. Once again the dems open their collective mouths and insert both feet---shoes and socks included.

This really is much to do about nothing. Mr. Wilson has been proven to be a liar and his op-ed piece in the NY Times was just another attack against the President by a pissed off liberal. The press gave Rove Mrs. Plame's indentity and it ends up she wasn't even an agent. The only question I have is why is that silly reporter still in jail. Given that she works for the NY Times I suspect her source is more embarrassing to her and the Times than it is to the WH.

X-army welcome to the home of the rest of the digusted disgruntled americans. By looking at your name you must have served for our country. Thank you very much for what you and the thousands of others have done for us. WE truly do appreciate your service for us even though it may appear it was all for not. Again, Thank you and welcome to our club!!

LOUSY ARGUMENT NUMBER 1: VALERIE PLAME DIDN’T DESERVE PROTECTING

Valerie Plame was a desk jockey, a clerk, a party planner (all terms used by Newsweek's Charlie Gasparino on MSNBC). She worked for the CIA, but she was unimportant at the agency, not “covert” in any meaningful sense. She was no James Bond, and “outing” her didn’t hurt national security.

WHY ARGUMENT NUMBER 1 IS LOUSY

Argument number 1 is factually untrue:
It is a matter of factual record whether or not Valerie Plame was covert or not: she was. Anyone who is basing their “this is a tempest in a teapot!” jabberwocky on this factual assertion is roadkill. Disprove them, then ignore them.

Here’s the proof: the CIA issued a “referral” on the case to the Justice Department so the Justice Department would investigate whether a crime had been committed when Plame was described publicly as working for the agency. If we all agree that the CIA (and not Ken Mehlman or Karl Rove or Ted Kennedy or Mos Def or freaking Ghandi) determines whether or not CIA employees are covert, then bingo, it’s proven: she’s covert. The CIA wouldn’t ask Justice to open a criminal investigation into her outing, if outing her was not -- in the CIA’s eyes -- potentially criminal. And outing her would only be seen as potentially criminal by the CIA if she was in fact covert.

Once you isolate its factual inaccuracies, what remains of Lousy Argument Number 1 doesn’t even to be dignified with a response:
As for the “outing her didn’t hurt national security” argument, here’s the question that should defuse it: should it be illegal to out covert CIA operatives? Should it be illegal, on grounds of national security, to reveal the identity of someone working for US intelligence whom the government has chosen to keep covert? If your answer is no, then by all means take that argument into the ring with the American people, and I’ll wait in your corner with a can for you to spit your teeth into when you’re done. If you want to make a public case that our government has no right to keep people covert in the intelligence service, and they’re all “fair game”, in Karl’s alleged words to Chris Matthews, then PLEASE make that argument front and center, prime time, in the Rose Garden, and then hand Dean the keys to Congress and the White House on your way out.

The key to dealing with Lousy Argument 1 is to separate the issue of whether Plame was covert from whether national security is at issue in this case. They can disparage her and her CIA work til the cows come home, but if they admit she was covert (and any honest ones will surely have to, because it is a matter of factual record), then the “not hurting national security” argument is done, defunct, moot, laughable. Well, laughable only in a dark sick way. Read this account by Plame’s CIA classmate if you need more ammunition on the harm-to-national-security issue. But I don’t think you do.

demsRwrong I'm not sure where you get your info but I don't think you belong in here. Do you have proof of what your saying or are you just another neocon afraid the King George and his croonies are hopefully going to get what coming to them. Go back to where you came from because we don't want you spewing your garbage in here!!

Oops there I go engaging a troll. Slap! Slap!

FIRE ROVE NOW! Nixon did less and got impeached...why are we cutting georgy a break?

Doesn't it sound like the White House was more concerned about Valerie Plame's CIA status than Saddam's WMDs at that critical time of the war?

and here we sit on our butt twittling our thumbs as we idly stand by and let Bush weakens the USA even more

Republicans now claim that Rove received information about the leak from journalists. This is crazy. Let's examine this.

Let us say that in their capacity as co-hosts of CNN's "Capital Gang", they were able to discover information about Joe Wilson's wife. This may have come from a senior administration source, as yet unnamed. Or perhaps it was Judith Miller who knew the other administration source and told Novak (Miller is in jail and Novak is not). Either way, Novak had to get confirmation.

Let's say that Novak and Matthew Cooper were in contact in order to get a third and independent confirmation directly from Rove (TIME magazine's controversial choice of George W Bush as Man of the Year may have given TIME and Cooper irregular access to the White House, the president's primary concern being "loyalty to his friends") This would have been the responsible choice for Novak. He printed his article three days after Cooper got Rove to confirm. It may in fact be true that Novak never talked directly to either of the two administration sources; rather, he was the one chosen to print the story precisely because he hadn't. Miller has refused to talk and now she's in jail. Novak has strangely been omitted from this investigation. Cooper got immunity from Rove to break his confidentiality so he could testify in front of a grand jury.

If Rove could confirm it, then he had to have known the information, known that it was secret, and willingly gave Novak the confirmation he needed. But if Rove was not rogue, then he must have been given the OK from the president to give Cooper his confirmation. In this case, Mr. Fitzgerald's comments that "Rove is not the 'target' of this investigation" would then prove prescient, since it very well could be that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating the president. We still don't know who the second and yet unnamed "senior administration official" is.

Republicans now claim that Rove received information about the leak from journalists. This is crazy. Let's examine this.

Let us say that in their capacity as co-hosts of CNN's "Capital Gang", Robert Novak and Judith Miller were able to discover information about Joe Wilson's wife. This may have come from a senior administration source, as yet unnamed. Perhaps it was Judith Miller who knew the other administration source and told Novak (Miller is in jail and Novak is not). Either way, Novak had to get confirmation for his story.

Let's say that Novak and Matthew Cooper were in contact in order for Novak to get a third and independent confirmation directly from Karl Rove (TIME magazine's controversial choice of George W Bush as Man of the Year may have given TIME and Cooper irregular access to the White House, the president's primary concern being "loyalty to his friends"). This would have been the responsible choice for Novak, and rather benign-sounding to Karl Rove, who, as he admitted earlier, only talked to Cooper to "discredit Joe Wilson".

Novak printed his article three days after Cooper got Rove to confirm. It may in fact be true that Novak never talked directly to either of the two administration sources; rather, he was the one chosen to print the story precisely because he hadn't and could be protected. Miller has refused to talk and now she's in jail. Novak has strangely been omitted from this investigation. Cooper got immunity from Rove to break his confidentiality so he could testify in front of a grand jury.

If Rove could confirm it, then he had to have known the information, known that it was secret, and willingly gave Cooper the confirmation he needed. But if Rove was not rogue, then he must have been given the OK from the president to give Cooper his confirmation. In this case, Mr. Fitzgerald's comments that "Rove is not the 'target' of this investigation" would then prove prescient, since it very well could be that Mr. Fitzgerald is investigating the president. We still don't know who the second and yet unnamed "senior administration official" is.

If Karlsputin was the "confirming source," that's just as wicked in terms of stealthily insinuating Mrs. Wilson's identity into the media bloodstream as being a primary source.

The upshot of it all is to intimidate other people from going against the Administration line. We'll even go past you to your family is the subtext to people in the CIA and elsewhere. When you choose to blow the whistle, you're not just risking yourself, but also your family. This is hardball indeed. Wouldn't it make you think thrice about blowing the whistle?

This in its wickedness has zero to do with Mr. Wilson. It has to do with making people afraid to blow the whistle.

If Karlsputin were telling something worth "the light of day," he would not have done it on 'double super secret background.'

pogblog

I'm amazed that there hasn't been much news about Iraq this week - just the way the administration likes it. Not long ago, CNN had a report on Iraq all the time with graphics and special music - haven't heard a peep when I've tuned in....however, just got a report online that two marines were killed today.

I read a letter to the editor in our local paper the other day reminding everyone of Clinton's sexual acts and lies. No one was happy with that and he was made to suffer, no doubt.

I wonder, though, how that compares with being responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 Iraqis and close to 2,000 US soldiers? Are republicans or the far right people really that hung up on sex?

And, regarding this Rove mess, the Democrats are right in making a stink and all good Republicans should, as well. Don't be fooled. The American people are a powerful group of people when they realize they've been lied to over and over again, and they have been used and when their rights are taken from them. The ship is turning.

Did everyone catch the source of last weekend's rumor that Chief Justice William Rehnquist was going to retire, giving Bush 2 Supremes to nominate?

Bob Novak.

Any doubt the White House wanted to change the subject. They got their chief lackey to bleat another false story.

This weekend, another phony story attempting to take the heat of KR.

Why isn't Novak being held responsible in any way?

He claims to be a journalist and I don't think he's on the official White House payroll, yet. Maybe the RNC, but not the White House.

Now that Karl Rove has been vindicated and it has proved that he was the receiver and not the leaker of this highly sensitive information who are all you left leaning liberal weiners going to go after?

If Rove was the source why is Miller in jail? She is protecting the real source that is why.

Iluvelephants: As any zookeeper knows, it's a known fact that elephants spew huge amounts of crap, as I'm sure you know well.
*******************************************

DID ROVE GET ANYONE KILLED BY LEAKING?

Comments by Andrea Mitchell, NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent, on MSNBC's "Hardball," July 14:

"She (Valerie Plame in 2003) was considered a CIA officer, and a covert officer at Langley. Now she had previously been what was considered under non-official cover, which meant that she was of the deepest type of undercover spy overseas, meaning she had a job in a CIA front organization, a company that took years and years to establish. And that revealing her name was serious because anyone who ever dealt with that company or with her, any foreign national CIA agent, agent that is a term used for foreigners, that person or persons could then be suspect and could then be under life-threatening conditions."

Comments by former CIA special agent, Jack Rice, on MSNBC's "Countdown with Keith Olbermann," July 14:

"Well, this is potentially huge, because what happens now is, everything that she (Valerie Plame) touched, every person that she touched, every asset that she may have come across, is now potentially exposed. Every intelligence organization in the world will now go back and scour their files to see if she was ever in their country, was ever involved with anybody, and try to wrap up every operation. The potential is huge...If there's a perception that you're going to see people in blue pinstripe suits in Washington wrapping themselves in the flag and talking about God and country while they're exposing CIA and intelligence operatives, you're going to have a real hard time convincing CIA officers to get out into the field and risk their lives for those people."

It has not been proven that Rove is the reciever, and not the leaker, so hold yourself back.

And, no one knows all the facts at the moment - only what is being "leaked."

Karl Rove's Nondisclosure Agreement

Comments from the article "It appears that Karl Rove is in serious trouble," posted today at SmirkingChimp.com by John W. Dean, former counsel to Nixon:

"There are stories circulating that Rove may have been told of Valerie Plame's CIA activity by a journalist, such as Judith Miller, as recently suggested in Editor & Publisher. If so, that doesn't exonerate Rove. Rather, it could make for some interesting pairing under the federal conspiracy statute, which was the statute most commonly employed during Watergate."

Sigh... Once again we seem to have a great issue and look like a bunch of idiots frothing at the mouth. Fellow lefties, the facts ARE important. The facts can help us if we use them right. The right wingnuts are killing us with the facts right now. We are just hyperventilating. Alot of air is going in and out of our mouths, yet we're just getting dizzy.

Another opportunity wasted.

Posted by StraightParty on July 15, 2005 at 09:44 PM

Quit whining. We aren't losing a thing. The dumb White House cover story is just that, and every analyst I have heard isn't bitin'.

Stop watching FOX.

When are we going to wake up. Do you know how many times the words "Republican", "Bush", and "Rove" appear on the FRONT PAGE of the DNC site? 21 times. That's just the front page. We look like whiners and finger pointers with no message.

Wanna know how many times the words "Democrat", "Harry Reid", etc. appear on the front page of the RNC website? ZERO. Big fat nada. We are not going to start winning elections until we develop and market a clear message, not just a vocal opposition.

Are the trolls out tonight,
You bet, and they are a sad fright
For they only come here to blaaaaa-ther.

Does anyone even realize that Plame was not a NOC any longer? Her last assignment was in 1997. 6 years before the alleged "leak" took place. You are no longer "covert" if you have been off assignment longer than 5 years which she was after she gave birth...much ado about nothing.

Maybe it was Tom Cruise. Remember he had the NOC list!!!!

There was no excuse for the Democrats letting the Bush Administration off the hook in the mysertious case of Jeff Gannon, the Downing Street Memo. Now I fear the scandal regarding the disgusting methods of Karl Rove will blow over as well. This concern is largely because of the Democrats lacking 'balls' when it comes to getting nasty and making a real ongoing case against the President and his team.
Never forget that the Republican minority created a major investigation over nothing in a matter known as Whitewater during Bill Clinton's first term. Therefore, being the minority party is no excuse for the Democrats acting so cowardly and wimping out.
I encounter more and more Democrats complaining about the their Democratic elected officials always tuckering out and backing off the in the face of resistance on behalf of the Bush administration amidst their never ending blatant displays of tyranny and scandal.
Will we see a change? Or will the Demcrats fleefer out on us again?

..much ado about nothing.

Posted by Iluvelephants on July 15, 2005 at 11:46 PM

i at times like feeding trolls, especially elephants. let us not forget rove is brilliant. i remain convinced that rove knew what he was doing and bush had knowledge of it too, to thus punish a critic of their iraq invasion. yet to prove is not probable. a law whether broken or not is not the issue. be this a democrat (aka donkey) or republican (aka elephant), makes no difference. ethically all knew better. once again, reminds me of the great movie, "wizard of oz." now that the curtain has been drawn, oz (aka rove) is very visible. and like dorthy, americans now know who he is. no more hiding behind a curtain with a megaphone directing policy. it has been said that he is both a political genius and a very knowledgable student of history (re: the mastermind of perfect timing w/11 anti-gay ballot inititatives in crucial states to orchestrate a bush win). so now that the curtain is no longer. if rove has any morals left he should resign. of course his critics, myself included, will see this as a victory and confirm their (our) feelings he was guilty. if he doesn't resign, which is the present course, he'll continue this controversy, and his supporters (including you) will be forced to "spin" justifications. thus, a story not going away. oh well, back to reading comments...have a nice weekend all.

ps...i to love elephants.

Karl Rove says he email Stephen Hadley about his conversation concerning Valerie Plame. Of course he did--he HAD TO EMAIL SOMEONE. He needed a cover story in case things went wrong! Rove did it.

Murray8144,

your post reminded me of when I kept checking the GOP and the DNC website prior to the election. Then it was reversed. The DNC and John Kerry websites had issues almost exclusively while the GOP was total Kerry bashing. It seemed to work for them then. Maybe it will work for us now.

Kickem when their down!

Why are we wasting time on this? I heard today that there wasn't even a law broken on Plame, that she wasn't covert and hadn't been posted abroad since 1997.

We've got to start offering something else to the people besides "the Republicans are fooling you, their all big liers". I got news for you most people think that all politicians are liers, why should they vote for us just because were no good at it.

We need to start proposing our own solutions to things like SS reform, and to win the war on terror, not just carp about what they are doing wrong.

If you want to go to the wimps democrat party, might I suggest going to http://www.dlc.org

Go find a great message!

Meanwhile, lets keep the heat on. Look how big this shitstorm is now everyone!!!

"RADAR got a pretty good scoop here (I had nothing to do with it).

Interestingly, not only does it say that Novak spilled his guts to the grand jury, but he reportedly told them that the NYT's Judith Miller told Novak about Valerie Plame's CIA identity, then Novak called his two White House sources (one of which was Rove) for confirmation.

Interesting. So, when Karl Rove's anonymous source says today that Rove found out about Plame from journalists, did that source mean Judy Miller?
Did Robert Novak rat on New York Times reporter Judith Miller? While some have suggested Miller—who never wrote a word about CIA spook Valerie Plame—was dragged into the leak probe when her name turned up on a White House call log, several beltway insiders close to the investigation say special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald learned of Miller’s involvement from Novak himself.

Though the GOP hatchetman claims he’s never spoken to the grand jury about the column, a well-known Democratic pundit tells Radar, “Novak is the media’s Joseph Valachi,” referring to the 1960’s mafia capo who was the first mobster to testify against La Cosa Nostra. “There’s no question he rolled over.” According to our sources, Miller shared Plame’s identity with her perfidious fellow neocon after deciding not to publish it herself; Novak then called his two White House sources for confirmation and wrote the July 14, 2003 column that blew Plame’s cover."

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/novak-reportedly-ratted-everyone-out.html

http://www.radaronline.com/fresh-intelligence/2005/07/15/index.php#report_001810

Hey hey, seems someone played a patsy game with Karl Rove in leaking the identity of CIA agents!!!! Robert Novak used Rove as his second source, surprise surprise...

And who was looking at the memorandum on AIR FORCE ONE, besides Karl Rove?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/16/politics/16memo.html

"Investigators are also trying to determine whether the gist of the information in the memo, including the name of the C.I.A. officer, Valerie Wilson, Mr. Wilson's wife, had been provided to the White House even earlier, said another person who has been involved in the case. Investigators have been looking at whether the State Department provided the information to the White House before July 6, 2003, when her husband publicly criticized the way the administration used intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said."

Surprise surprise, I wonder why the NYTimes always spins it their way? Oh I see now....They want to keep Judith Miller and Karl Rove (along with the other traitor) from being indicted!!!

I don't think their shitty reporting is going to help much, given the facts about this case now.......Batten down the hatches!!!

Kazinski --

Crimes WERE committed. Mr.Rove committed an act of high treason. In days of old he would he might have faced a firing squad for jeopardizing the lives of others working in harms way in defense of our country. Prison is a possibility. However, I doubt he'll end up there. The Republicans have way too many people in high places under their control thanks to the Military Industrial Complex. This Includes all the major television news networks and news media.
As to all politicians all being liars --not true. Also, please take a moment to consider the terrible gravity behind the lies of President George W. Bush over the Iraqi war, the scam in the 2000 elections and now this betrayal to our country by Karl Rove. Thousands of lives have been lost and billions wasted as a result of their deceit. Clearly the Republicans have are taken 'lies' to new and frightening levels. However, the good news is they are not above the law. And it is our duty as Americans to demand justice be done. We must all keep fighting until each one of them faces punishment for their crimes.

The claims that Valerie Plame was not a CIA covert agent come from a) Bob Novak himself, when he was trying to pretty up his douche bag image after the initial controversy in 2003; b) idiotic parsing of Joe Wilson's words when he said that his wife was not a covert agent the day Novak published his article, meaning Novaks outing of her ended her covert career; c) the talking points Ken Mehlman and Karl Rove cooked up for goof balls to spread here.

The reporting by Knight-Ridder on the day the Justice Department investigation into this matter contains:

"The CIA declined to discuss Plame's intelligence work, but an agency official disputed suggestions that she was a mere analyst whose public exposure would have little consequence."

""If she was not undercover, we would have no reason to file a criminal referral," the CIA official said, insisting on anonymity because of the sensitivity of the investigation."

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?ts=1&display=rednews/2003/10/01/build/nation/25-leak.inc

Let's be a little honest when posting here. Appeals court judges in their opinions have stated that the reporters had to reveal their sources because of the severity of the charges, even, as one judge said, if there is a federal shield for reporters in the statute. In other words, national security trumps a reporter's privilege to protect their sources.

Shed no tears for Judith Miller, for Susan McDougal, yes, not for Miller.

Miller is in jail for concealing the truth, McDougal went to a federal penitentiary for refusing to tell a lie.

By the way, this is a thread about Karl Rove. If one wants to discuss DNC policy matters, there are open threads and several specific policy areas on this site.

Of course, if such statements are made just to stifle comment here, go jump in a lake.

This is cute:

"Rove told then-deputy national security adviser Stephen Hadley in the July 11, 2003, e-mail that he had spoken with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper and tried to caution him away from some allegations that CIA operative Valerie Plame's husband was making about faulty Iraq intelligence."

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/30189.html

Isn't this the same place where Scott McClellan told the press corps that Karl Rove, Scooter Libbey and Elliot Abrams had nothing to do with the leak? Sounds like the whole West Wing was involved.

Well, speaking of Susan McDougal's status in relation to Judith Miller:

"Lawyers in the CIA leaks investigation are concerned that special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald may seek criminal contempt charges against New York Times reporter Judith Miller, a rare move that could significantly lengthen her time in jail."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071502080.html

Judy may be in for some hard time, after all.

Does anyone even realize that Plame was not a NOC any longer? Her last assignment was in 1997. 6 years before the alleged "leak" took place. You are no longer "covert" if you have been off assignment longer than 5 years which she was after she gave birth...much ado about nothing.

Posted by Iluvelephants on July 15, 2005 at 11:46 PM

No wonder this country is in such danger from our enemies abroad. With this type of stupid Republican thinking about the nature of spy work, we might as well not have a CIA. Agents go in and out of the cold depending on when they are needed for an assignment...that's how they stay covert. Gee, read some Tom Clancy books.

Now that Karl Rove has been vindicated and it has proved that he was the receiver and not the leaker of this highly sensitive information who are all you left leaning liberal weiners going to go after?

Posted by Iluvelephants on July 15, 2005 at 09:36 PM

He hasn't been vindicated. He's been more deeply implicated as a verifier for other leakers. There is no way he can any longer say he or the White House can say he was not involved. At least two others have fingered him.

If I was the Special Prosecutor, I'd go after the person with the ultimate responsibility for the coverup. Nixon knew. When did Bush know and what did he do or not do about it?

Lead story in today's New York Times claims that former Secretary of State Colin Powell had a memo that he had delivered to President Bush that informed him of Joe Wilson's Africa trip, the results of that trip, and who was involved in the handling of the operation. The memo was dated July 7, 2003. This is four days before Rove talked with Matthew Cooper and seven days before Robert Novak printed his article outing Wilson's wife as an undercover CIA operative.

CNN reports today that National Security Advisor Steven Hadley (then Deputy NSA) did in fact have conversations with Matthew Cooper of TIME magazine.

Exactly what information was exchanged with whom is still uncertain, but now the president's National Security Advisor, who worked under Condoleeza Rice in president Bush's first term, and former Secretary of State Colin Powell (who was not retained in the second administration in favor of promoting Rice to the position) was involved and knew the information. So did the president.

Furthermore, we know that John Bolton had the NSA intercept phone calls made by senior members of the State Department and National Security Council. These are the same intercepts that the White House has been refusing to turn over the Senate (at the request of Joe Biden and other Democrats) as necessary materials to complete Bolton's confirmation package so Bolton can get his up-or-down vote. Strangely, the Bolton nomination has been put on the back-burner and nothing more has been said about these NSA intercepts.

Nevermind for the moment that Bolton was abusing his power as undersecretary of state by tasking the NSA to conduct domestic surveillance of senior-level administration officials -- more senior than undersecretary of state (there can only be what? two others higher than him in DOS?) -- senior-level administration officials and co-workers who were also critics of the administration's strategy of "fixing intelligence around the policy" of war with Iraq (according to the Downing Street minutes...). Nevermind for a moment that Bolton was planning to use these intercepts to blackmail these officials into falling in line, or instead to have them removed from their positions.

Now the president, who constantly professes the importance of "loyalty to his friends", is promoting Bolton to UN Ambassador and desperately trying to push through his confirmation without releasing these intercepts. I wonder exactly what the president knows, since he seems to be intimately involved and aware of every aspect of the operation.

hello all (i just posted this also on open thread also),

this may have already been posted ... a must check out (rove-bush-cia) story that the white house is unexplaining, but spinning, and hello, spinning invites more and more attention... keep spinning white house!

(The physics of unaccountable power

Fineman: Media's pursuit of Karl Rove was inevitable)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8562223/

Let's deal with the REAL scandal. It's time to retroactively impeach Bill Clinton for inspiring Osama bin Laden to send the U.S. "messages with no words" in August 1998, October 2000, and, of course, on 9/11.

http://www.retroactiveimpeachment.com

You know, I've had this awful pain in my right buttock since Clinton was president. It got better about four years ago, but persists...

A certain lifelong Democrat was right when he said in his speech at the Republican National Convention, “…our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrat's manic obsession to bring down our Commander-in-Chief."

Manic Democrats have been uable to bring down our Commander-in-Chief, so now they are going for second best: his right-hand man, Karl Rove.

Manic Democrats who consider Rove “Guilty, even if eventually proven innocent" are hurting this country. How about letting the investigation proceed to it's conclusion before consuming 80% of the news with it? All evidence revealed-to-date points to Wilson and the press, not Rove. The MSM bias has been totally apparent, even blatant.

How about focusing on real news:

The deficit is now $94 billion less than what the February forecast was. The President's tax cuts and pro-growth economic policies are fueling growth and job creation. We've seen more than 3.7 million jobs created over the past 25 months. The unemployment rate is down to 5 percent. The economic growth that is fueled by the President's tax cuts are leading to significant *increases* in revenues, just as the President predicted they would.

At first I thought, “Let them fight this battle…they are going to lose and make fools of themselves in the process”. But the more the media insists on asking questions about Rove before the inquiry is complete, the more I realize that this is more Democratic obstruction. Even if they lose the battle on Rove, they are winning the war of obstructionism over ideas and progress.

Add to that:
Where are the calls for John Kerry's resignation?

There are two reasons Kerry should resign:
--------------------------------------------
1) Senator John Kerry apparently revealed a covert CIA agent on April 11, 2005:

Senators May Have Blown Cover of CIA Agent
By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer

Monday, April 11, 2005

(04-11) 17:29 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --

Mr. Smith came to Washington again Monday, as an alias for a Central Intelligence Agency officer who works covertly. Senators, however, may have blown his cover.

During questioning on John R. Bolton's nomination to be President Bush's ambassador to the United Nations, Bolton and members of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee referred to "Mr. Smith" as one official among several who were involved in a dispute over what Democrats asserted was Bolton's inappropriate treatment of an intelligence analyst who disagreed with him.

"We referred to this other analyst at the CIA, whom I'll try and call Mr. Smith here, I hope I can keep that straight," Bolton said at one point.

Committee Chairman Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., both mentioned a name, Fulton Armstrong, that had not previously come up in public accounts of the intelligence flap.

It is not clear whether Armstrong is the undercover officer, but an exchange between Kerry and Bolton suggests that he may be.

In questioning Bolton, Kerry read from a transcript of closed-door interviews that committee staffers conducted with State Department officials prior to Monday's hearing.

"Did Otto Reich share his belief that Fulton Armstrong should be removed from his position? The answer is yes," Kerry said, characterizing one interview. "Did John Bolton share that view?" Kerry said, and then said the answer again was yes.

"As I said, I had lost confidence in Mr. Smith, and I conveyed that," Bolton replied evenly. "I thought that was the honest thing to do."

--------------------------------------------

2) According to the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, John Kerry should not be permitted to be a Senator unless a vote of two-thirds of each House of Congress waives the fact that Kerry gave aid to our enemies during the Vietnam War.

It is a well-documented fact that Kerry met with the Communist North Vietnamese in Paris while he was still an officer in the Navy Reserve and we were still at war in Vietnam. These actions gave aid to the enemy in a time of war.

Kerry should not be a Senator without a 2/3 vote of Congress! Why? Because the 14th amendment to the US Constitution contains the following in section 3:

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

--------------------------------------------

Let's deal with the REAL scandal. It's time to retroactively impeach Bill Clinton for inspiring Osama bin Laden to send the U.S. "messages with no words" in August 1998, October 2000, and, of course, on 9/11.

http://www.retroactiveimpeachment.com

Posted by Arminius on July 16, 2005 at 12:41 PM

with all due respect, is this to divert attention from a real scandal (bush-rove-cia)? if you folks are not spinnin' you're divertin' and what's next?

Rove may manages to wheedle out of punishment for the outing of Valerie Plame with some kind of technicality, but there should be some kind of punishment because Rove should never have been telling anything he found out about a CIA officer or agent, much less an under cover officer, to any kind of reporter. Whatever comes of this, there is no doubt in my mind that Rove, as well as Novak, is guilty or the trail would never have led to Rove. But, I just feel that with Rove being a Hitler type, and a lobe of Bush's brain, will figure out how to wheedle out of it somehow.

Considering the real scandal is Bill Clinton's legalcy of 9/11, it's kind of silly to describe the Plame affair as a scandal. She wasn't a NOC, her neighbors knew she was in the CIA, and it is clear Joe Wilson lied on numerous occasions concerning how he came to be sent to Niger.

http://www.retraoctiveimpeachment.com

Leave it to the Deomcrats to invent new crimes.

The media leaks the identity of an ex CIA operative to Karl Rove... and Democrats scream that Rove lose his job over it.

Can you say "obvious frothing partisanship"?

You guys are too funny.

Have fun boys!

trolls,

we all know that rove is a brilliant political strategist, knows exactly what he has to do to discredit opposition, and now you must do what trolls do best...his spinnin & divertin'.

Rove should have gotten a legal degree. He's in over his head going up against this Special Prosecutor. Somebody is going to be the next Chuck Colson and rat on all of them.

New avenues to pursue? How about Poppy Bush? He know everyone involved at the CIA and the White House. Bet he makes courtesy calls all the time. Check his phone records.

Or how about Ashcroft? He sat tight for a long time before he appointed a Special Prosecutor. Who was he protecting?

My favorite Nietschze quotes (from "Beyond Good and Evil") which seem to relate quite presciently to this administration:

"The attraction of knowledge would be small if one did not have to overcome so much shame on the way."

"'I have done that,' says my memory. 'I cannot have done that,' says my pride, and remains inexorable. Eventually -- memory yields."

"One begins to mistrust very clever people when they become embarrassed."

"Affability contains no hatred of men, but for that very reason too much contempt for men."

"There are no moral phenomena at all, but only a moral interpretation of phenomena --"

"There is an innocence in admiration; it is found in those to whom it has never yet occurred that they, too, might be admired some day."

"The disgust with dirt can be so great that it keeps us from cleaning ourselves -- from 'justifying' ourselves."

"The more abstract the truth is that you would teach, the more you have to seduce the senses to it."

"Madness is rare in individuals -- but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule."

"There is an innocence in lying which is the sign of good faith in a cause."

"Not that you lied to me, but that I no longer believe you, has shaken me --"

Let us consider again the "character" of this administration.

Here's a perfect example of just how low, how contemptous, how absolutely vile, conservatives can be...

As stated in MediaMatters.org, on the July 12th edition of Fox New's "The Big Story," host John Gibson commented that "White House deputy chief of staff Karl Rove should be given 'a medal' for outing covert CIA operative Valerie Plame, adding that Plame 'should have been outed by somebody.'"

Yes, this cretin actually said that somebody should have outed a covert CIA operative, therefore exposing every CIA operation she every worked on and potentially putting the life of every foreign "asset" she ever worked with at risk. And that the traitor who does so should be given a medal! (At least Gibson should be given credit for ackowledging the obvious, that Rove did indeed "out" Plame.)

A stunning -- and 100% factual -- example of the depraved, amoral partisans who are cheerleading for the Bush administration.

"The media leaks the identity of an ex CIA operative to Karl Rove... and Democrats scream that Rove lose his job over it."

Ah, the simplicity of Repubican partisans. A careful reading of the "news story" in the NYTimes reveals to the careful reader that the source of this tripe is Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin.

Spin, spin, spin

Look at the republicans try to spin, spin spin!!!! They're spinning themselves into a corner!!

This is too funny, just check out the scandal as it keeps getting nastier.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_rove;_ylt=AnKDu7azyQOr_R1SfH2r4Z9ZJ_wA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

""I didn't take the bait," Rove wrote in the message, disclosed to The Associated Press. In the memo, Rove recounted how Cooper tried to question him about whether President Bush had been hurt by the new allegations Plame's husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, had been making.

The White House turned the e-mail over to prosecutors, and Rove told a grand jury about it last year during testimony in which he also acknowledged discussing Plame's covert work for the CIA with Cooper and syndicated columnist Robert Novak.

Rove, however, told the grand jury he first learned of Plame's CIA work from journalists, not government sources.

Just days before the e-mail, Plame's husband had written a newspaper opinion piece accusing the Bush administration of twisting prewar Iraq intelligence, including a "highly doubtful" report that Saddam Hussein bought nuclear materials from the African country of Niger."

Now even Steven Hadley confirms Rove took the info.....Yeah he just "happened" to get it from the media! What a joke, that line makes them all look stupid!!

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/fc/World/media_watch/feature_articles/SIG=12mnqj6f3;_ylt=Ap0qji1N2MFO4u.U4DaNZ09ZJ_wA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl/*http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071502080.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-rove15jul15,1,3458818.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

"But some legal experts said that too little was known about what Rove had known about Plame and when he had known it, and that it was therefore too soon to judge whether President Bush's close aide was in the clear. In any event, they said, special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald may pursue other charges, such as perjury or obstruction of justice, or he may decide against seeking any indictments.

Thursday marked the second anniversary of the publication of Plame's name in a syndicated column by Robert Novak. For more than 18 months, a Justice Department investigation led by Fitzgerald has been seeking to identify the administration sources used by Novak and other journalists covering the story. That led to the jailing last week of New York Times reporter Judith Miller for refusing to cooperate with the prosecutor.

Rove has been connected to the case through a conversation he had with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper days before the Novak column appeared, and through Cooper's subsequent e-mail to his editors indicating Rove had identified Plame to him in a brief phone conversation, though apparently not naming Plame. Cooper testified Wednesday about his conversation with Rove for 2 1/2 hours before a federal grand jury."

Now its getting good!!! REPUBLICANS=SOFT ON TREASON!

Talking points for Democrats:

Treason! Treason! Treason!

http://mediamatters.org/items/200504140008

"The CIA says, quote, "It's not the end of the world, since previous CIA work put the officer's name out there," and, quote, "We're not talking about someone who is doing deep espionage overseas." The CIA, although, says it hopes the officer's career is not adversely impacted."

SeekTruth, you might want to actually seek truth before reiterating inexact rubbish.

"Fulton Armstrong was a known CIA agent for years before he testified at the Bolton hearing."
--Posted by c_at_l_bob on July 16, 2005 at 01:10 PM

The "rules of engagement", if you will, at the Bolton hearing were that he be referred to as "Mr. Smith". The CIA had a reason for doing so. John Kerry did not obey the rules. That point is not discredited.

Why no responses to my comments about John Kerry and the 14th ammendment?

No person shall be a Senator ... who, having previously taken an oath, ... as an officer of the United States, ... to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have ... given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

It is a well-documented fact that Kerry met with the Communist North Vietnamese in Paris while he was still an **officer in the Navy Reserve** and we were still at war in Vietnam. These actions gave aid to the enemy in a time of war.

Kerry should not be a Senator without a 2/3 vote of Congress! If he were to apologize for his previous actions, as Jane Fonda has, I believe he would do better than a 2/3 vote. But, given that he refuses to apologize for making fal