Fascinating!

Articla

Karl it's time for you and Libby to go to jail, you've been a deemed threat to our national security.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/07/19/ciaAgentsLetterToUsSenateAndHouse.html

Lying assholes. And Tom DeLay needs to get his but out of Washington, and step aside for when the House Ethics Committee and FBI indict him for breaking every single law in the book.
http://dailydelay.blogspot.com
Tom DeLay has been a bastion of corruption ever since taking over, Texas needs to plaster his face all over every single newspaper.
nick

This is unbelievable!

I wonder how Republicans are going to spin these new developments...or are they going to let it just die down and evaporate?

And Nick, I agree with your assessment of DeLay. The man needs to do some time for what he did to Texas.

Is Social Security fixed yet? Are the borders safe? Can homosexual Americans enjoy a civil union?

Nah, I guess this is all so much more important; and why my voter card still reads independent.

Talking points...

John Roberts advocates government invasion of privacy
John Roberts advocates government control over women's bodies
John Roberts advocates discrimination of pregnant women and minorities
John Roberts advocates racial segregation in schools
John Roberts advocates environmental destruction by predatory businesses
John Roberts advocates the killing of endangered species by predatory businesses
John Roberts advocates putting American workers at risk to predatory business
John Roberts advocates putting American consumers at risk to predatory business
John Roberts advocates destroying Americans' environments such as parks
John Roberts advocates integration of church and state
John Roberts advocates amnesty for criminally liable organizations

Yeah and "formerDemocrat"

What social security problem needed to be fixed?

You can't even be real. Are you saying you WANT privatization of all social security accounts? My god give me a break and stop throwing your own future right over a cliff.

GAY Americans and civil-unions are being banned and OUTLAWED by the republicans. You're saying you support this garbage? You do whether you like it or not if you simply don't vote.

Please tell me you aren't for real. The national security of this country and social security NOT being privatized takes precedence over every other issue.

I find it amazing you sit there arguing otherwise.

nick

"Put the rope away for now."

You may find this interesting, but more americans care about national security and this "frivilous" thing than those who don't.

The Karl Rove issue will ALWAYS be treated as such. This is a matter of national security that confirms as the downing street minutes testify, that we were lied into war.

Expect it to always take precedence on the front pages. Until the real DSM investigations start. Guilty as charged by pure involvement; the DLC would argue this is all smoke and mirrors. The DLC is full of it, and does not represent what america really thinks about this criminal behavior. Period.

"Put the rope away"? The penalty for treason is death. I'm appaulled there are no Republicans, NOT ONE, that take this case seriously. The outing of Valerie Plame was retribution for her husband's honest reporting no yellow cake was sought or sold to Iraq. Out of spite, they went after Plame, labelling her "fair game" or prey, if you will. And out of spite her network was destroyed. Years of recruiting individuals who would provide information to the US to enable us to protect ourselves was lost, out of spite, to perpetuate a lie, a lie that has cost tens of thousands of lives, Iraqi civilians and our own, the best of their generation.

Let's find a good, strong branch!!!

Nick,

I never said a thing about privatizing social security, but I do know that by the time I hit retirement, the Social Security tax is going to be somewhere in the range of 20%. Something has got to be done to fix this.

Rove telling the name of a desk jockey (at least since 1997) at the CIA did not violate ANY national security of consequence.

Now giving the Koreans and the Chinese nuclear technology, that did it. Supporting Bin Laden and Sadaam way back in the day...that did it.

Allowing Iran to be taken over by militant islamists, that did.

And actually I SUPPORT Civil Unions for everyone, BUT nobody in Washington is working to get that fixed. They are holding mock impeachments in the basement of the Capitol and screaming about Rove.

GET SOMETHING done, stop whining and playing politics and support us dangit.

That's all I want. Neither party is doing it, and therefore they are not doing the jobs they were elected to do.

...Sheesh. Put the rope away for now.

In your dreams, maybe...we ain't letting go of this one...and UNLIKE repugs, we can do more than two things SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!

formerDemocrat:

Are you nuts?

Did you even read this and the LETTER?

http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/07/19/ciaAgentsLetterToUsSenateAndHouse.html

Langley job!?? Are you aware this crap is outright lies?

Are you aware that Valerie Plame, Mark and Johnson all worked in the top CIA unit which tracks WMD(weapons of mass destruction) worldwide?

Are you aware that Brewster JenningsAssociates, the outfit she is apart of was DESTROYED and this has literally destroyed our ability to avoid getting nuked?!???

Are you aware of any of this? Or are you this completely UNINFORMED!

What needs to be done with social security former, is to PULL BACK THE TAX CUTS!

Did you not get the memo? All of the rich people who are now DLC, and republicans get the tax cuts. The poor get the shaft, thats how the admin does things.

PULLING BACK THE TAX CUTS WOULD ELIMINATE AND FIX THE SS PROBLEM!!!!!! Along with the spending cap. But you are NEVER, EVER going to get that by being uninformed about everything and not voting democrat.

We have to have a MAJORITY in congress, to repeal the corporate loopholes and devastating tax cuts. Then fix the spending caps! For over 4 years democrats have wanted to pull back the tax cuts, instead its the middle class and all of us who get taxed ridiculous amounts of money which goes to General Motors and friends.

IS that what you wanted? Just magnifying the gravity of the situation. National security and Social Security are completely serious.
nick

It's amazing how the conservative reporter, Robert Novak, who always knows so much and talks so big, all of a sudden says he doesn't know what he was talking about. And, it seems every Republican involved has now lost their memory. People as intelligent at these people are don't just lose their memory. They remember, but have chosen not to in order to protect theirselves. I think the Grand Jury will see through their lies.

Nick,

You're a bit hostile today huh? But at least you're dedicated to your causes and I can respect that.

Which tax cuts, if repealed would help social security? Granted, they could help other parts of the government, BUT even before the tax cuts -- Congress (both parties) were stealing from the Social Security Fund to fund pet projects in their home states. Thankfully, there are bonds there but very little else. Let's hope they can reign in spending and protect the nations credit rating.

They could up the 90,000 income cap to say 120,000 and that would help some. But again, the rich would just find another way around paying it, and the rest of us would be stuck footing the bill.

Mrs. Plame has given money (with her husband) to several political campaigns. She used her real name (not her cover name) and she put Brewster Jennings as her employer on the disclosure forms. She outed herself right there.

===========================================
The disclosure that Plame gave $1,000 to former vice president Al Gore's presidential campaign has been a particularly sore subject with U.S. intelligence officials, because the Federal Election Commission requires contributors to disclose occupations and employers. Plame made the contribution under her married name and listed her employer as Brewster-Jennings & Associates, an energy consulting company. Brewster-Jennings has since been identified by Bush administration officials as a CIA front that Plame used as a cover for her clandestine work. The disclosure, again by Novak, that the firm was a CIA front came about as a direct result of the reporting of Plame's campaign contribution.

The Brewster-Jennings information was first reported by Novak on CNN on October 3. An assistant to Novak said he discovered Plame's contribution to Gore and her employment by Brewster-Jennings after having done a search of Plame's contributions on the opensecrets.org website, and that if Novak did not write or broadcast the information himself, it was so easily accessible that it was only a matter of time before some other journalist would have discovered it and reported about it anyway.
===========================================

Again, this is a very muddled issue, and I think that there are better things to concentrate on.

But that is just me.

One of the things that a person who holds any sort of clearance is to report any breach or suspected breach in security.

Failure to report a breach could be criminal. (A proper investigation must determine that.)

Covering up a breach IS criminal.

End of story.

and boyhowdy, why do the freepers always try this "former democrat" crap? Don't they have more than two scripts in their playbook? Jesus, what a bunch of morons.

Word up, nobody here falls for it, ok?

So now an important and serious question. If someone in the administration (Rove or not) is found guilty and is dismissed and tried in court, will that make everyone happy?

Also, and seriously, John Kerry and another Republican Senator read aloud the names of a couple of operatives on Captiol Hill AFTER the CIA asked them to refer to the guy as Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones.

Why isn't this a story on the same level?

funny Amanda,

I've voted for Clinton (twice), Gore and Kerry once. I live in North Carolina where we have a democratically controlled state house and senate and a Democrat for a governor.

I don't know who to vote for right now to be honest with you. I am truly tired of watching all of this crap unfold.

If Bush is having to defend his administration from charges he will be distracted and less able to push his nominee through the Senate.

Let's tie up that RW sound machine. Keep them defending Rove. Keep their eye on saving their own skin.

That will help, not hurt, us in defeating Bush nominees.

They must face justice for what they have done.

Let's get two birds out of it.

formerDemocrat:

GOD!!!! Stop listening to the lies already and actually read. Plame didn't disclose any of her donations, nobody did, using their CIA name. They used their civil name and this was all coming out AFTER the fact they were outed.

Doesn't change the fact the entire thing was compromised, and the CIA assets tracking WMD, which protect the USA were destroyed. And you do realize this was because they got close to Dick Cheney's ridiculous oil deals with terrorists?

It was a complete SETUP!!

"Which tax cuts, if repealed would help social security? Granted, they could help other parts of the government, BUT even before the tax cuts -- Congress (both parties) were stealing from the Social Security Fund to fund pet projects in their home states. Thankfully, there are bonds there but very little else. Let's hope they can reign in spending and protect the nations credit rating."

The DLC and republicans have been doing that for a while, period. But the NEOCONS basically bankrupted the whole country. God it makes it a wonder how different things would be with Kerry, it is a crime that voters rights were denied. There would be no more corporate loopholes and horrible taxbreaks everywhere.

Look the reality is the tax cuts must be repealed and the spending cap increased. Then it can be discovered how much money is gone from the treasury, over completely illegal wars. THEN WE CAN DEVELOP ALTERNATIVE FUEL AND START SAVING THIS DEAD ECONOMY, LIKE WAS PROPOSED IN 1998! Then SS will never be in danger, 20 years from now.

That's the truth here but its all a pipedream until formerD and the rest of you stop complaining about SS and do something. A majority in congress of democrats is what that takes, period. Bellyaching about it all the time and going nuts will do nothing. CHANNEL THAT ENERGY INTO CHANGING THIS!!!!

And Karl Rove going down will obviously protect national security, but we (I hate to say it) are only save until Cheney and all his criminal friends are indicted. They all need to be pulled down ruthlessly and jailed for throwing our country over the deepend, and that will take a dramatic effort in 2006 and beyond. And who knows how many conspiracies George has hidden under there, that have bankrupted our stock market.

Unbelievable, go see Dean say it: "Culture of corruption" is what we have here, fight back against it by getting grassroots progressives elected!!!

nick

Nick,

Forget the stupid troll for a minute. We have urgent business here. The fabric of our Republic is under assault.

We must form a combined strategy to bring Bush to justice and defeat his nominee.

Former,

The only way to change the way crap unfolds is to dig in and change it. All politics is local. If you want to change the shape of the Democratic Party, that act of change begins with your local Democratic chapter. Get yourself to the meetings and you'll have a much more direct voice in who we get to vote for.

If they local committee puts up shitty candidates, let them know why and (even better) suggest someone who is better-qualified for the job. Be ready to explain why. It's only fair discourse. That's how it works.

In NC, we're not exactly blessed with good candidates of either party. Did you see the primary contest in Dist 5 between Vernon Robinson and Virginia Foxx? That made national news it was so vile. The Forsyth Democratic Party could have used people with your fervor, either to boost the candidate they had or to put someone in who could easily have defeated either of the two former (and rather vile) Republican candidates.

It takes hands, brains, eyes. It isn't a mysterious process where people just pop up on a ballot by magic. It's because everyday, walking-around people get involved and make good things happen.

"...did not violate ANY national security of consequence."

Excuse me? Even IF Valerie Plame was a so called "desk jockey" since 1997--that does not mean that her identity was not protected--for the work she had done in the past. Reassignment to a new task does not erase the previous clandestine work done in the past. 1997 was not that long ago--any contacts she had at that time that needed to be protected, aren't suddenly going to be safe just because 8 years have gone by. The point is, Karl Rove disclosed the identity--whether by actual name or identifying her husband. And the excuses given that "he didn't know" or "a journalist told him" are red herrings trying to misdirect the public. Why would he even mention her at all? If they were trying to get a reporter not to report a story--why mention Joe Wilson's wife at all?? And if they wanted to discredit Joe Wilson--again, why mention his wife? If she was a "desk jockey" since 1997 (meaning to imply she was at a low level post) how in the hell could she send her husband to Niger? I seriously doubt the CIA would entrust a "desk jockey" to send anyone off on a fact-finding mission. I don't care what party Karl Rove works for--the fact remains, he did what he did. And the hypocrisy of those who say that anyone who protests against the administration is "giving aid and comfort to the terrorists"--to look at this and keep throwing paltry excuses and distractions at this issue--is appalling. Karl Rove is no desk jockey in this administration. And although if anything does come of this, yes, he'll likely be pardoned. But for a President that claimed he would restore dignity and respect to the post he now keeps--he has broken his promise to this nation. This administration never admits mistakes, never takes responsibility for anything that happens (how many times have we heard half-assed backward looking statements trying to pin even the smallest thing on the Clinton administration). You cannot just take credit for positive things on your watch, you have to own up to all things that are done on your watch. Don't tell me about previous adminstrations, because those points are moot. This is the administration we have now--they are in office, and have been now since inauguration in January 2001. At what point are they responsible for anything?? It's their SECOND TERM in office. At what point does "the buck stop here"? Regardless of who holds office--they must be held responsible for their actions. Karl Rove is a close advisor to the President, and more and more evidence is being discovered of what happened. They keep changing or "raising the bar" on what it would take for Rove to be let go, or asked to resign. Mr. President, I beseech you--keep your promise to bring dignity to your office. Ask Karl Rove to hand in his resignation, or at least be placed on administrative leave until the investigation and whatever happens afterward is completed.
We cannot allow such actions to take place in any administration by any party. This would set a dangerous precedent to say "nothing of major import" happened. Karl Rove, knowingly or unknowingly, broke also his pledge of non-disclosure that ALL Executive branch employees sign. We cannot let this or any other issues go. Yes, there are other matters to take care of, but keeping the heat on for answers and action in this matter does not mean we cannot pay attention to other matters as well.

... I seriously doubt the CIA would entrust a "desk jockey" to send anyone off on a fact-finding mission...
Posted by KarlH on July 20, 2005 at 12:32 PM

Correct. They most absolutely would not. Desk-jockeys don't have the training, clearance, or need-to-know information that an operative must possess before going out the front door.

Any claim that Plame was a desk-jockey is specious and shows a certain void of information on how the system works. It's not like people can walk up to the CIA office building and say, "I want to be a spy" and they reply, "Well, SURE! Put down those pendaflex folders and we'll give you a pair of sunglasses and a decoder ring!".

It simply does not happen, has not ever happened.

Hello,

This doesn't have any thing to do with that traitor Karl Rove, at least directly, but I came across an article in the NY Times that most of the soldiers killed in Iraq are from rural America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/opinion/20bishop.html

This is one reason why democrats should not shy away from talking to the so-called "red states". Republicans are all too happy to support policies that not only cost red staters thier jobs, but also their kids are disproportionately affected by reckless foriegn policy.

I am no expert on how this would translate to a message to red state folks, but it seems that we dems focus more on the economic impact of banana republicanism on red states, and do not engage, educate, discuss the disasterous foreign policy because some dems don't want to fight repubs on these issues. But I can tell you that taking the now proven facts of the administration's dishonesty in the War on Terror and how it is killing rural sons and daughters is a conversation that we should be having.

I agree the Bush admin has got to go, 80% of americans are saying this is a severe threat to our national security.

Lets remember that North Carolina is also under assault now. What the hell is this?

They are going to make it against the law for people to cohabitate, I know people in NC and if they aren't married whether gay or not outlawing cohabitation is WRONG and should be ILLEGAL.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-07-17-state-law_x.htm

Look its happening in arizona too!
http://www.westvalleyview.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=18351&TM=73814.05

What the hell kind of fascists do we have running amuck!?!??

People who are supporting this crap are severely brain damaged, not moral values voters. This is craziness, and the worst part is if we do not fight and get progressives into all offices and DENOUNCE ANYMORE DLC candidates this is going to get worse.
nick

Karl,

I totally agree. In a word out of Bizarro world, even Bill Bob O-Reilly has stopped drinking the kool-aid and realized what we all have.

This is a serious threat to our national security, our Central Intelligence Agency agents have been destroyed and LIQUIDATED.

Our ability to effectively protect the US has been destroyed by a traitor called Karl Rove, and his neocon superior Cheney and some other traitors.

On top of all this, its costed the lives of thousands who have died in an ILLEGAL UN-NEEDED WAR!!!!

How the hell can anyone exscuse this crap, now that we know he had completely lied to congress!???

Even O'Reilly knows the buck stops here: Its time for them to just plain get the hell out of here, and get a functional government on top of stop chasing Judge Roberts and any distractions. That Rove would use a politicial ploy, just to get the heat off treason related crimes is D EPLOR A B L E!!!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162938,00.html

Now that's the talking 'point' or truth we need!

THE DSM IS THE CORE PROBLEM!

Nick_t,

It's already against the law to cohabitate in NC, has been certainly all my life. Just recently, there was a news item about a young lady who lost her job at a sheriff's office because she was living with her boyfriend.

It would appear that the white-sheet-wearing repubs in state congress are going tooth-and-toenail after these weird, meaningless, "m'rallidy" issues. Now let's take a quick count of what's going on since they have become so preoccupied with what goes on in your bedroom:

Cone Mills was once the supplier of denim to Levis jeans. Both are now offshore and workers lost their jobs. Sarah Lee has scaled back its clothing manufacture sending more workers home, now in Chinese-made Hanes underdrawers. Two furniture manufacturers (major names) have closed this year, sending hundreds more workers home.

NC was the world's leading manufacturer up until about 20 years ago. Now we're near dead-last. The cotton mills and fabric plants left completely during the 80's.

Hundreds of smaller businesses that relied on those jobs I mentioned above have had to close because North Carolinians don't have ready cash to spend any more. The ripples keep spreading.

So far, every one of those consequences, plus the diversionary tactics of "morality", has come from the R side of the floor. I've been watching my Reps for my district and they are some Democrats of whom to be very proud -- standing up for people, not corporations under the guise of some Biblical "mandate".

What a bunch of morons some of you are.

Have any of you bothered to read the "Amici Curiae"? If you have not you can go to it with this link.

http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/tbl_s10News/FileUpload44/10159/Amici%20Brief%20032305%20(Final).PDF

It basically states that 36 major news organizations and reporters' groups argue that both Matt Cooper and Judith Miller should not be compelled to reveal the identities of their 'confidential' sources because NO CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED!!! Rove did not break the law. You might realize this if you came up for air now and then.

The Brief then goes on to say that the identity of V.P., the so called 'covert' agent, was not convert at all and the CIA had previously mentioned her name publicly.

What is egregious, is the MSM still trying to purport a bold face lie on one hand to the American Public and behind closed doors say just the opposite.

It is too bad that so many Dems are so blinded by their hatred they cannot see the forest for the trees. This is why you will continue to lose election after election; the American Public is not so blinded.

Rational "Thinker",

Take your totally irrational logic and explain that to the FBI and CIA. They actually know a crime was committed, amazing isn't it?

Amanda,

This is what I knew would happen especially to freaking North Carolina if the crazy conservatives started completely taking over. Oh and also, letting the DLC appease them and pay for their mandates.

The cork screwed conservatives of our time especially in NC thought all liberals were evil or something else, so they divided all the corporations to fire them. Conservatives of this breed are by definition STUPID. The LIBERALS or workers were SMART, and kept the conservatives from making bad and stupid decisions they always wanted to make. Now that there's no more accountability, they've run amuk and followed the neoconliberals right over a cliff.

It's happened in MULTIPLE states. And if we do not refuse to endorse anymore of the DLC and throw them to the wayside, if we do not get Paul Hacketts elected in every state THAT WILL BE OUR FATE.

That's a far greater problem reflecting the core issue of national security treason, and social security. And we have GOT to put these Tom DeLay slimes behind bars, including DLC appeasers. That's the only way the stupid will stop making all the decisions on our government.

nick

IrrationalThinker:

If the "American Public" is BLIND WHY IN THE HELL DO 80% of them agree Rove needs to be fired? WHY THE HELL DO THEY ALL AGREE NATIONAL SECURITY HAS BEEN BREACHED?

God, you are a dense NUTCASE! The progressive represents most of america and they have not been heard, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE UPSET! BOTTOM LINE!!
http://biz.yahoo.com/ft/050717/fto071720051741223246.html?.v=1

On-Topic: Picture that represents our national security today, and Karl Rove fighting with neocons to destroy it.
http://billmon.org/archives/002035.html

nick

Greetings.
The Karl Rove security leak matter is old News, and we should let it go and move on.
Oh, don't you freeper's wish.
Imagine, if you will, we have the second term Al Gore administration. The matter at hand is swirling around James Carville. All you freeper's would be so willing to allow an innocent lose liped error so slide on by. Oh, ya, sure, You bett-cha!
Now the right wing radicals want us to believe it was the press that told K. Rove. Even if we believe the lying ilk, it would then have been incumbent on Mr. Rove to pass on to the Secret Service, immediately, before He "forgetts", the name, or names, of the person, or people, that are speaking classified, need to know only information, for action to be taken.
Valerie Plame was just a desk jocky, and this is all so over blown.
That is the best the RNC can come up with!

Nick 'ol boy,

I don't know what your smoking, but it must be good. I'll bet you get your stated stats from Moveon.org; so it must be true. Gee, 4 of the 5 people at the last meeting that were polled thought so.

If the majority of the American Public felt the way you suggest you would see change.

I guess we'll just have to see who gets indicted and for what.

You might want to come up for air now and then.

Just remember, DSM, DSM, DSM.

Karl Rove's betrayal of the CIA is all about DSM.

All that matters is what the Jury and law finds out about this, and Rove by official witness accounts in the FBI has changed his story three times now.

The man has flat out nervously denied his involvement in leaking CIA covert operatives....That points to officially guilty.

The only problem in getting him for breaking the law on identities, is that he has repeatedly denied he knew they were covert. No one has to buy it, but it has to be proven he did know.

This state memo very well may prove it and Rove goes down for more than just obstruction & perjury.....
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Wall_Street_Journal_enters_Rove_fray_State_Dept._memo_made_clear_info_shouldnt_be_shar_0719.html

But let's say its over. Oh yay, the democrats won right no more traitors. WRONG!!!! This bullshit is not about democrats/republicans. NOBODY WON!

This has affected our national security severely and until Cheney and the coverup within White House comes crashing down, this will NOT be over!!!!

Indictments all around and WE MUST HOLD THEM ALL ACCOUNTABLE!!!! Never forget the DSM.
nick

Irrational,

I know this because at one time I worked in the intelligence community. You're partially correct: "A" crime hasn't been committed.

Multiple crimes have been committed and by multiple persons.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I do because I have been there.

You need to get some help toward getting that cult-mentality out of your head. Some serious psychotherapy is in order for your dysphoria with reality.

And when you post, you might wait until you know what you're talking about.

I'm through with you.

This is really pissing the Republicans off that America is not letting go of the Rove story so fast. So, in defense, they post things like "that is such old news," and "you people are barking up the wrong tree," and "nobody cares."

However...I find it so interesting that when you get them backed into a corner, what is the very first thing they spout out? - "Clinton was impeached!!!" And they all do it - not just Coulter. Talk about old news.

So then they complain to Democrats about not coming up with anything new. I'm not sure, but it rings of hypocrisy. And then they pull the conservative Christian angle with their signs that read, "It's not HATE - it's the Bible." Well, as I understand it (and I could be wrong - I've been wrong before), the one thing Jesus did not have patience for was a hypocrit.

Irrationalthinker,

You freepers are FULL OF CRAP!

ABCNews, among the most right-leaning mainstream news there is:

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001609.htm#comments

71% of republicans, 83% of democrats, over 80% of AMERICANS demand that Rove and leakers be fired and removed from office. IT SHOWS AMERICA REALLY DOES CARE ABOUT NATIONAL SECURITY, AND YOU AND YOUR ILK SEEM TO HAVE RUN OUT OF ROPE TO HANG YOURSELVES.

nick

Posted by CaseyInTN on July 20, 2005 at 02:01 PM

Preach, my brother.

It's all there in the Red Letters, if the wackogelicals would pull their heads out their collective Leviticus...

...guess we'll just have to see who gets indicted and for what.
You might want to come up for air now and then.
Posted by RationalThinker on July 20, 2005 at 01:55 PM

If there's no crime, why an investigation, and why is J. Miller in jail despite her appeals??? because appellant judges looked at the case AND saw the crime/crimes commited...take your own advice and hold your breath...cause indictments are coming quicker than you think!!!

I think it is funny how they use the media asking the judge to dismiss the case against Cooper and Miller as proof that there was no crime committed. Heck, the brief says that no crime was committed. I mean, let's not have a judge review the facts to determine if there was a crime committed, the brief says it is not true.

That was the point of the brief you right wing crazies. However, the SP and judge did not agree with you so back off and we will see what happens when the grand jury is finished.

Amanda,

You definitely need to pull your head out of your skirt. I noticed you used the past tense with the Intelligence Community - are you now with the Not-So-Intelligence Community?

Nick,

ABC is right-wing?! You definitely are in need of some oxygen.

Try taking a look:

http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/tbl_s10News/FileUpload44/10159/Amici%20Brief%20032305%20(Final).PDF

Then tell me what you think.

Thinker,

Not sure what you want to say with your link, but what does NASA have to do with anything?

Irrational;

That bullshit PDF memo is not what is being discussed, and those involved made it very **clear** what is being pursued is a very serious crime.

Even if the identities protection act could not be shown to be violated, an additional protection act under article 613, has been violated and can easily be shown. Read the full legal analysis by John Dean that shows the direct violations of laws for agents, covert agents, and provisions.

If there was not any serious crime committed, this wouldn't be scrutinized under the legal microscope. There clearly was a number of serious crimes committed, so the bullshit memo and old GOP talking points are now dead--We are at national security breaches now.

nick

Hey, Nick,

Still kickin' trollbutt I see :-) I'm always tickled to bits to see another Tarheel (state, not school, so don't throw rocks :LOL:) involved in the process.

We finally have a unified opposition!!!!

Senate Democrats AND House represenatives to hold joint hearings on the serious breach of national security.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Democrats_plan_their_own_hearings_on_outed__0720.html

Full CIA officers, official NOCs and others will be at these hearings also continuing the downing street investigations.

It is truly telling that very few REPUBLICAN LEADERS will even join to discuss this problem.

Lets see to it that no matter what, our party stays non-distracted by the Roberts revelations. And that gradually more republican lawmakers join these hearings and get directly outraged.

nick

For those who have been in the intelligence community, and likewise for those who remember the watergate...

Have you seen the movie Bourne Identity? Can you imagine what it would be like, if Ward and other officials of the US Government revealed the identity of Jason Bourne and blew his whole network?

He worked at langley too, didn't he? An official NOC agent doing the CIA's bidding around the clock.

Can you imagine the criminal implications, if every single person in Jason Bourne's unit was compromised at the co-operation of putting a puppet government into China, or another country?

Can you imagine the legal ramifications now if, Jason Bourne, happened to track terrorist nukes and weapons of mass destruction?

Now flash forward to 2005....That has happened precisely. Its not China this time, its far worse. It is the entire Middle East and their OIL drilling companies.....For those like Deputy Ward, (Bourne Supremacy) who see this thing as only a game.
nick

We finally have a unified opposition!!!!

Senate Democrats AND House represenatives to hold joint hearings on the serious breach of national security.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Democrats_plan_their_own_hearings_on_outed__0720.html

nick_t - that is fantastic news. Thanks for posting that!

Time to shoot off a letter to my Congressmen.

Rational Thinker sure seems to be overcome with emotions about FatMan getting his butt dragged through court. It's truly hilarious how ridiculous they are with their talking points. Does the Reichstag sit back and laugh at all the parrots out there repeating mindless drivel all day long until the following day when the talking points have to change because another "defense" was found to be indefensible. Is their any self-consciousness whatsoever on this "Thinker's" part when he writes with such hatred about how we're supposedly lost in our hatred? I'm thinking no. Since when do patriots harbor traitors. Frankly,the one and only acceptable answer EVER to a question about whether someone is CIA agent is "NO!" Whether they are, or are not is totally irrelevant.

Keep talking about the case. Saw Franken last night. Apparently rove's lawyer started the rumor (using the press) that the charges were old news so when interviewed about it later, he could say that media reports say that it's already old news. They want us to shut up about rove. Don't do it.

The democrats have wisely learned their lesson, and know the Roberts problems will be discussed and dealt with "later"

Let's all follow this meme, and keep reporting the DSM Karl Rove/Lewis Libby traitor stories.

It is high time that america gets accountability and answers, and thats what all democrats are focused in on. The fact that many republicans aren't is truly telling, and those who want to stay anywhere near a political office better get in gear. Rove has failed to distract and drawn instead more questions on his obstruction with the FBI, which showed him changing his story several times....

Keep in gear and zero in on the target, now we are truly winning back our right to this country.
nick

I ask the GOP to study God's Word. I believe if they do more than read the Bible but take a step further and get a concordance and study all the scripturs that pertain to each subject they will see that they are headed down a slippery slope to destruction. Just look at their non conserative ways on borrow and spend, live within your means,love your neighbor as yourself, this goes for the rich as well as middleclass and the poor, study to show yourself approved unto God, (that includes education) God said I would that you be in good health and prosper, so healthcare, Owe no one anything, pay your debts quickly, no backbitting, no war
mongers, no adultry, speak truth to everyone, no taxation without represention, are only the wealthy and the big corporations, and the GOP represented? Are some of the GOP gilty of these things as well as the some of the Democrats? God said there will no sin overtake you but that which is common to mankind. Why are the GOP acting like only the Democrats have faults? I can see a great falling away from their first attitude in the old days? Let each of us pray that God will bless Democrats in those things that are right and defeat them in those things that are wrong as well as the GOP. What a wonderful world this would be.

This guy is a real piece of work. Evasion, lies, faulty memory. I hope the Special Prosecutor puts the screws to him...and Miller, too, if she's protecting him. Rove is covering up for something. Just what? And what did the President know and when did he know it?

Whatever it was, it was deliberate and more than one person was involved. Discussing state secrets during a time of war is as low as it gets. This is worse than Watergate

Watergate had nothing on this crime. An entire network was compromised and our national security suffered a significant loss as a result of this breech. Watergate was burglary and this is treason. They don't compare in any way.

Gegor, you have it. An entire network was compromised and the reason was to cover up the "fixed" info Cheney insisted on Bolton delivering. The link from the Downing Street memo to the Powell memo to TreasonGate is becoming clearer all the time.

Hi Dems! Forgive me for popping in to comment, then leaving immediately, but I wanted to say I'm glad we're ignoring the bait of the Roberts nomination and continuing to focus - and demand that the media focus - on the Plame incident. What a blow it will be for the master-planners if people resist their diversionary bait (the Roberts nomination).

Essentially, I believe we should ignore Roberts' nomination, narrow in with pit bull determination on Rove, et al, and not let go until we have answers. If Roberts gets appointed in the meantime, oh well; frankly, I don't think we have a minute chance of stopping him anyway. That's why I urge you all keep applying the pressure on Rove where I do smell blood in the water. Let's stop behaving as Dems this once and pretend we're Repugs: show no mercy.

Everyone should just chill out and let the prosecuter do his thing.
Then we can watch the Bush group go down in Plames!

I just want to know where to send my campaign donation for nick_t and Amanda_B. With them running for political office, Republicans would be guaranteed to win the moderate vote and control congress for several generations.

No, my name has nothing to do with Monica Lewinsky. That is old corruption news!

The freepers are really desperate when they start coming here and commenting how "moderate" they are.

The fact is the majority of america doesn't give a shit what the freepers think.

They've never cared, because they live so far dislodged from reality it doesn't even BITE.

And the real electoral votes prove it, where exit polls from midnight showed MORE voting against republicans than anything else.

http://www.exitpollz.org

Of course that doesn't change the facts voting has been rigged, and they also banned issue 1 to get the religious right involved.....But it says an awful lot, when 80% of americans care about the issue of national security and actual laws, and the 20% or even 2% of freepers do not but have just "miraculously" been given a free pass....

And come to believe they do now. I think its time that they know how pathetic they really are, and the DLC go with them for constantly voting with republican hypocrites.

Ever seen it?
http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseWire/default.cfm?Action=ReleaseDetail&ID=9474
http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V12/7/dreyfuss-r.html

Read it again, these are the DLC.
http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V12/7/dreyfuss-r.html

No more compromises....Lets take back the fair voting act and "our" country from the hypocritical sinking in quicksand religious right.

nick

REPUBLICANS MUST CHOOSE: BUSH OR AMERICA?

"We already know that Rove is a traitor. So, probably, is Cheney. Since George W. Bush has protected traitors for at least two years; he is therefore an accomplice to the Rove-Libby cell. We are long past the point where, during the summer of 1974, GOP senators led by Barry Goldwater told Richard Nixon that he had to resign. So why aren't Turd Blossom and his compadres out of office and awaiting trial?

Democrats are out of power. And, sadly, Republicans have become so obsessed with personal loyalty that they've forgotten that their first duty is to country, not party or friend. Unless they wake up soon and dump Bush, Republicans could be permanently discredited.

Bush sets the mafia-like tone: "I'm the kind of person, when a friend gets attacked, I don't like it." His lieutenants blur treason with hardball politics--"[Democrats] just aren't coming forward with any policy positions that would change the country, so they want to pick up whatever the target of the week is and make the most out of that," says GOP House Whip Roy Blunt--and blame the victim--Rove, absurdly argues Congresswoman Deborah Pryce, was innocently trying to expose Wilson's "lies."

The NBC/Wall Street Journal poll finds Bush's credibility at 41 percent, down from 50 in January. Given events past and present, that's still a lot higher than it ought to be.

We don't need a law to tell us that unmasking a CIA agent, particularly during wartime, is treasonous. Every patriotic American--liberal, conservative, or otherwise--knows that."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucru/20050719/cm_ucru/republicansmustchoosebushoramerica

The GOP all 37% of them which support this traitor, are completely complicit in conspiracy. That goes for CONGRESS and anyone aiding, and abetting, illegal wars for self profit.

SPREAD THE MEME! "SOFT ON TREASON: THE PARTY OF FALSE MORALS!" Begin taking the pikes out and gnashing for their hides.

nick

nick_t

I do not want you to change. I wish I could publish your views to millions of Americans as the true views of Dems. You rely on sophomoric nickname for those not sharing your views. You rely on conspiracies to justify or ignorance of the public to explain failure of your views. You espouse "We don't need a law to tell us that unmasking a CIA agent, particularly during wartime, is treasonous". No we just need to trust nick_t to condemn the guilty. THIS SCARES those closer to Buddha than to Marx away from the Dems.

Keep up the rhetoric!

nick_t

I never said I was a moderate. My opinion is that your position on issues scare moderates more than my position on issues. Therefore, moderates have started voting for Repubs more than for Dems.

I know you will indicate that Mods vote for Dems. Only the right-wing conspiracy to steal the election is source of your parties failure to control the government. Keep it up!

Funny how ass-backwards the freeper logic is.

The fact is most democrats do not treat traditional republicans as traitors, and there are even a whole enclave of comments from republicans on this very blog who are FURIOUS about the traitors who disbanded our CIA operations....

But of course the freepers wouldn't pay attention to this point, logic and fact defile and rape them.

The truth is most democrats accept progressives, liberals, and conservatives in the same light and has a wide view.

What they don't accept is the radical religous right, its crazed nazi like opinion of propaganda and the corporatist society of the democratic leadership council.

THE PEOPLE HAVE DEMANDED THEIR VOICE IN GOVERNMENT FOR YEARS, AND BEEN TICKED OFF ITS NEVER BEEN HEARD!

And now they are going to get it, and all the pissed of republicans and democrats alike are going to allign themselves with a common goal of getting rid of the neoconliberals for good and their crazy religious reich.

Then they will demand that the common individual has rights to all issues, this includes individual WORKERS rights, healthcare, social security, repeal of the tax cuts, true national security, proper fair views of abortions, legislation in government, and the MINIMUM WAGE.

These are real moral values. These are values the african americans are pissed off and sick and tired of not getting, and these are what the real democratic party will march for and denounce the hate-right wing before the whole world.

nick

Irrational Think;

Don't tell me about the war my racially challenged friend, MY FATHER SERVED IN THE INFANTRY AND BASICALLY GOT HIS LEG BLOWN OFF!

Twice served in Vietnam and Guam; and this bullshit has gone on long enough.

NOBODY approves of how this illegal war has gone, and we all want more veterans like Paul Hackett. We will completely watch your religious right crazy-army explode, and get actual NON Federalist Society veterans into congress for a long time.

That includes veterans who have actually served in the war, IrrationalThinker like Paul Hackett. You have not even ever served a day outside of this country.

Its time for you to join and give some real manly claims behind those words of yours, http://patriotboy.blogspot.com

They're all waiting for you. Meanwhile, lets have actual veterans who LIVED THROUGH IRAQ doing the legislation in Congress. We deserve absolutely nothing else and will get real accountability in government from these liars.

nick

Aaahhh, nick_t, if only I could afford to fund your run for the U.S. Senate. Well..... I guess I could fund you up the dollar limit of my "free-speech". Since the Dems have limited the ability of an individual to freely express their support for politicians. Oh, well. At least I can dream!

You still have your "Hate is not a family value" bumper sticker?

"Dems" is likewise the slang type talk and shows an uneducated divisive type...

Similar to the slang of nigger, chink, and other speech that the south GOP give to african-americans.

Let me guess, the apology came over that one too when Mehlman stuck his foot in his mouth. But the NCAAP didn't buy any of it, and minorities have reason to be pissed off....

Only the democrats have finally fully stood behind them and supported getting them elected, giving them back their civil rights and passing the voting rights act. Under the current standard, minority groups have no constitutional right to vote.

How unsurprising is that? The GOP religous right really is blanketed with the corrupt, all white stacked up unchristian party.

Being a devout christian myself, I can see the difference between christianity and the religous tainted right version which has died out.

One version actually gives a crap about thy "fellow" neighbor, that would be real "actual" christianity. The other does NOT, and further advocates racism straight from the bible. Disgusting, to the point of I'll waste no point in being baited by freepers who follow this type of crap for a living.

nick

One last point I can't forget...

So "Irrational", do your invisible moderates advocate blowing the cover of clandstine CIA officers everywhere?

Do they advocate following religious right psychopaths to ban all forms of gay marriage, supercede on a woman's right to choice, and all affairs of the FAMILY AND WOMEN'S OWN CIVIL RIGHTS?

Do moderates look to join the federalist society of corporate wing hacks and take over the world through Global proliferation, and increase terrorism?

If moderates vouch for all these views than they deserve what they get, however, no actual thinking moderates I know of vouch for this. I can only contend then that the meme is bullshit. Just another to add to the stack of piled lies in the water.
nick

nick_t

It has been interesting. Not that you probably care, but I think your intentions for America and Americans is pure and good.

I am off to scan other blogs on this site. I am looking for the elusive Republican "FURIOUS about the traitors who disbanded our CIA operation...". I have not seen these people over the last few months. Most of the conservative opinion is mocked and attributed to evil intentions.

Oh but I think you and IrrationalThinker HAVE seen it but refused to recognize it.....

http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/07/republicans_spe.php

Republicans all over are outraged, as they should be, social security is also going to be dismantled by these creeps. In fact there's those from all sides who are outraged, but Rush Limbaugh will have you believe its just some "democrat" splitting hairs.....That's his job.....

nick

'Well..... I guess I could fund you up the dollar limit of my "free-speech".'

You are a fool. That much is clear. Limiting contributions enables everyone to have free speech. Free speech suggests just that, there is no cost. But you support whoever has the most money has the most speech. While there is a lot to be said for that, government ought to enable everyone to speak freely and defend the rights of everyone to speak freely rather then be suppressed by those with the most money. We are living in a country where those with the most money reign, but if democracy survives the election frauds, it won't last.

PS - at 75% disbelieving this Administratio,'s BS about Rove, I believe there has been a change of heart on this country because I don't recall there being so many liberals at the last election.

Gregor,

Where is your campaign website? This 'fool' is correct that your smooth adjectives will woo those willing to have an open mind. I will activity solicit websites to link to your campaign.

Remember "Hate is not a family value".

Lets not forget the DNC has outfundraised the DLC by taking contributions from the people....

Now they're afraid their power is weakening. What's this bullshit about only the "electable" candidates winning?

Its time we all elect PROGRESSIVES in every area, and we can do just that by getting to all the core value voters who are NOW rising up, that do not vote, and who are sick and TIRED of the things going for the common man!!!!!!

That's right, no more DLC and no more corporatists. We will remake the whole thing and get REAL working people properly elected in all the states, including Wisconsin. Thank you Dean for winning over Wisconsin, this state will finally break rank and file and go blue towards a real actual government.

IMO, the Democratic leadership council will continue being threatened and we the activists should rise up, and put real elected officials into power by absolute grassroots movement.

nick

"I've voted for Clinton (twice), Gore and Kerry once. I live in North Carolina where we have a democratically controlled state house and senate and a Democrat for a governor."

Burr and Dole are Democrats? New one on me.

BY ALL ACCOUNTS, KARL ROVE HAS A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY.
A quick Google search of "Karl Rove memory" came up with the following:

"Rove's phenomenal memory makes him an intellectual giant to those who meet him. He may even remember the exact number of votes that enabled the Democratic Party to carry Oregon by a small majority in 2000..." (klamathforestalliance.org)

"A voracious student of electoral history -- and one of those people possessed of a seemingly eidetic (extraordinarily accurate and vivid) memory for numbers and statistics that bordered on the freakish -- Rove always knew where the votes were..." (citypages.com)

"Mention that West Texas is conservative, and Rove will come right back and say no, there are actually four subregions in West Texas, each with its own distinct history and ideology, and then he'll give detailed, decades-old election results in each one from memory." (bnfp.org)

AND YET...

1. He FORGOT to mention to the FBI that he had spoken with Matthew Cooper about Plame.
2. He told the FBI that a journalist had told him Plame worked for the CIA, but he COULDN'T RECALL which journalist.
3. Later, his Alzheimer's-like memory lapses worsening, he claimed he COULDN'T REMEMBER where he ever learned about Plame in the first place.

I won't bother with any niceties...I hope this amoral cretin, this smear-your-opponents-at-all-costs political hack, this zit-on-the-buttocks excuse for a man, makes the mistake of bending over to pick up his prison-issued soap.

My suggestion to the DNC...

INCLUDE PHOTO OF ROVE!
INCLUDE PHOTO OF ROVE!
INCLUDE PHOTO OF ROVE!

As long as this sordid story remains alive, as long as the DNC homepage highlights articles on Treasongate on its homepage, there should ALWAYS be a companion image of Rove in that link-box.

Graphics/images are as important as words, and provide for greater visual impact. Always show the face(s) linked to this scandal. Always show Rove's double-chinned mug next to headlines such as "Rove Didn't Tell FBI About Cooper."

the element about all this that resonates with the american people is that when wilson tried to tell us that they were lying about starting the war, they were on him and his family like vultures.

that is where the focus should be. we all know rove will not be found guilty of anything because he probably didn't name plame by name(but by saying wilson's wife which is ridiculous i know).

that is what enrages people as we continue to lose people day after day in this war and innocent iraqis are being killed.

we are making a country full of terrorists over there and the people are finally waking up out of their flag and fear based fog.

we can't forget, this is all about lying to get us in the war. rove tried to discredit these people, illegally or not.

and if we spend all our capital fighting this supreme court guy, we will piss off the people and we need to win back the senate in 06. that is the only way we will ever get more moderate nominees, by forcing bush to compromise with a majority in the senate or the house.

they should grill that guy like crazy, pass him through if nothing stands out and stay on rove like flys on you konw what. this court buisness gets the heat off him and we can't let that happen. this war is a disaster and roves face needs to be all over it because that is where his guilt lies.

Mikal,

He is a member of the Federalist Society (along with a lot of other members of the Bush administration). This is a group that disagrees with not only affirmative action, but any move towards diversity, and has posted in support of anti-sodomy laws and the right of the state to intervene to promote moral values on its website. It is also the organization that convinced the Bush administration to ignore ABA ratings on judicial appointments. I wrote about this last night (click on my name for my blog) but Mr. Roberts is NOT in the 'conservative mainstream.' If he was, he would resign from the extremist Federalist Society.

How can the Democrats call them the party for the people. When the democratic appointees voted to let big corporations take land from private citizens. We need people like John Roberts on the SC, someone who can read the US Constitution and apply it to his rulings. let me say this YOU LOST THE ELECTION GET OVER IT.

oggie and the freepers are always a sight to watch!

If we lost the election the evidence wouldn't show we won. http://www.bushcheated04.com

What a frightening concept that a bunch of crooked repubs would steal the votes, not!

That's why they want to appoint federalist society types into the bench. They think they've earned their keep on appointing whackos and calling them moderate, and of course none of that is true.

And once you see how badly the election was stolen you know none of it is true.
http://comp.uark.edu/~jsamuel/ohioElectionHamilton.jpg
nick

In my view Dems should fight to the last man and woman to keep Roberts off the Supreme Court. If he isn't successfully confirmed it will be a victory for abortion rights and if he is confirmed (and abortion rights are revoked) Dems will benefit from the political support of a majority of American citizens. The second part does not does not apply if Dems are seen as weak in their opposition.

Thanks

Whine. Whine. Whine.

Why would we want to open up a can of worms with Karl Rove? We have Sandy Berger to deal with when the republicans come after that. Sandy Berger actually did do something terribly wrong. I don't think we want to get into a pissing match with them on this petty Karl Rove deal. It isn't going to do anything with the president anyway. He is just an advisor.

No, Let's DO bring up Sandy Berger who was caught, convicted and punished. I'm a Democrat, I'm glad he was caught, plead guilty and punished and I'm glad he had his security clearance taken away. Good. I think it's important for anyone who does something like that to be caught ADMIT WHAT THEY DID and punished. Piss away

I don't recall that Sandy Berger really turned himself in to the authorities. He was caught stuffing documents down his pants. Do you really think he would have turned himself in if he hadn't been caught? I can't believe that the republicans didn't make more of this than they did.

Just me said "I don't recall that Sandy Berger really turned himself in to the authorities"
Of course he didn't turn himself in. He did, however get caught and he did plead guilty. Good. I'm sure the Republicans have their own reasons for not making more of it. Maybe it's because the entire Democratic party didn't suddenly throw it's entire weight and energy into shielding someone who was guilty.

nick t ,

You need to seek some help about stealing elections. I guess everytime one of your not bright canidates loses an election it's they stole the election. Bush had more the 50% from the last election that is more than your favorite presidnet Clinton had in either of his. Rove did nothing wrong, Berger did not turn himslef in he got caught. I can't you think what Rove did was even the same level as Berger. Wilson's wife told more people about what she did than anything the press released. Get over the election and seek some help. I don't know how often you can keep counting votes but every time Bush wins.

here's anothing thing that baffles me; this investigation has been ongoing for two years now. A two year investigation into who leaked the identity of a CIA operative and only NOW has anyone suggested she wasn't covert. Why didn't anybody suggest this in 2003? And another thing, I have lived in the DC suburbs most of my life, Langley High School was a crosstown rival of my high school. I can't even COUNT how many people I have known who have worked in that building and they ALL say they're "just a secretary." Trust me, they aren't all secretaries. That whole, "she worked a desk job, she wasn't covert thing" doesn't really fly with anybody who lives in Fairfax County; not if they are really being honest with themselves.

Oggie,

While your facts are accurate, they do not tell the whole story. In 1992, Clinton had 49% of the vote and beat his closest oppontent by 8%. He gained 49% while there was a strong 3rd party candidate. In 1996, he received a lower % and yet still managed to win by 5% over his opponent.

Bush, on the other hand, lost the popular vote to Gore in 2000 and received less than 48% of the votes with no serious 3rd party candidate. In 2004, he bumped up his percentage to 51% and a 3% point victory. Still not better than Clinton.

But keep trying to find any fact that proves your current excuse for a president can ever measure up to Clinton in any serious issue.

oggie,

Keep it up freeper! You make yourself look more silly every time.

Bush didn't win plain and simple, and the reason you can't prove he won is because he lost.

The unverifiable machines confirm you can't prove he won.

The truth says something a little different doogie, and isn't that interesting?

http://www.votersunite.org/info/content/newmessup-01.asp
http://www.cybersapian.com
http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseWire/default.cfm?Action=ReleaseDetail&ID=9474

By the way, they already covered this in Georgia. http://www.countthevote.org

Sandy Berger did get caught, and Rove committed a crime. This is what I keep getting a kick out of, you call yourselves the reality based community.

Yet all you do is come here to the democrat blogs and post nonsense, like about how Rove hasn't committed any crimes and never knew who Plame was. You and your kind are hilarious oggie, and really desperate.

nick

Nicky ‘ol boy,

I don’t know what kool-aid your drinking or what you’re smoking, but from your post of “Don’t tell me about the war my racially challenged friend……”, you are on something.

It’s the only thing that would explain you bringing up the war or anything at all that can be construed as racial from my previous posts.

I should realize you’re whacked when you mentioned a fictional novel to give your opinion some credence. Don’t worry, when the spaceship comes for you and Louie Farakkan, you can then have your last laugh.

Until then I will be amused by your postings.

Didn't former president Clinton say that Saddamm Hussein was a threat to the United States and if he wasn't taken seriously as a threat he would take action on the United States and other free nations? Read more http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/02/17/transcripts/clinton.iraq/ Very interesting info that I found. Not sure why people think that in three years that Saddam changed his tune.

Burr and Dole are Democrats? New one on me.

===========================================

No but Mike Easley is and so is 55% of the house and 60% of the state senate. So are a good number of the US House (G.K. Butterfield, Bob Ethridge, Mike McIntyre, Brad Miller, David Price, Melvin Watt)

NC has always (until now) a split in the senate and a lot of democrats in the house. Traditionally, democrats have controlled the State Government. Just for some reason, in NC, they always vote for the darn Republican Senator.

I'm asking the question again of those of you who say no crime was committed; this investigation has been ongoing for two years now. A two year investigation into who leaked the identity of a CIA operative and only NOW has anyone suggested she wasn't covert. Why didn't anybody suggest this in 2003 (or 2004, or before last week)? Why is the CIA still saying she was covert?

sorry, meant to say Republican President above.

grr.

The Karl Rove story is fizzling out...Maybe it was the amicus brief filed by all of those media outlets. Those media outlets throw a wet-blanket on the deal....Go figure.

mags,

The CIA is saying she was covert? Really?

MNSasquatch,

Can you explain why in 1992, Democrats ran every branch of government, but in 2000, after 8 years of Clinton, the Democrats were out of power? You lost the House, Senate, majority of Governorships. I find that stat amazing.

MNSasquatch,

My email address is klingon4000@yahoo.com. Soon, I will be booted off of the DNC website for posting items that are in disagreement.

I have so many questions for you....please email me.

THE MOST AMAZING statement ever uttered from a Democrat (Howard Dean): Osama bin Laden is innocent until proven guilty.

Yet, Tom Delay and Karl Rove are guilty until proven innocent. Rabid partisans know no end.

If your going to complain about loosing the election by three million votes. You may want to look at some ststes where the elections were won by Kerry and fraud was found from the democratic party. Wisconsin comes to mind and the elections in Milwaukee County where the elections board (run by a dem) wanted more ballots than there were registered voters. They were voting for people that were dead. But, Bush stole the election? It could have been a wider margin of victory if the fraud votes were thrown out.

Ace,

We lost the majority in the house, sentate and governorships because we have not stayed true to our message and the republicans have been able to control the message. I won't deny that the tactics have left me a bit envious with the way they have succeed. I will admit, that some of the republican tactics (i.e. swift boat ads and smear campaigns) are a bit much for me.

Ace you lose a bit of credibility when you claim the Rove issue is fading. It will fade when the Grand Jury ends and no indictments are made. Until that time, the story is not going away. By the way, the brief presented by the media outlets was ruled on already and there was no merit to their claims that a crime was not committed. Please keep up on current events and stop using past briefs that were overruled in your arguments.

And yes, the CIA is saying that she was covert. Please refer to the hearings tomorrow being held by dems and intelligence community members to discuss this issue and the impact of the outing.

As long as you remain civil, you will be allowed to stay on the site so feel free to address me here.

Lizzy,

I will agree that voter fraud did occur on both sides. Would you agree to this statement?

Having said that, the numbers of claims of fraud and the number of voters affected by said frauds in the last 2 elections would have helped the republicans, not the democrats. However, I will not claim that the election was stolen. I would like to say that something needs to be done to eliminate as many of these frauds as we can, including making sure there is a paper record for all votes. We have this in Minnesota and the voting moves pretty quick, not sure why similar systems cannot be developed in other states.

I gotta say, I love the spirited debate going on. I've said by peace before, but I gotta thank everyone for the entertainment...especially the freepers...

MSNasquatch,

First, no, I won't be allowed to stay on even if I am civil. Its just a matter of time before I get booted.

As far as tactics, we can't touch your party. Moveon.Org? How about the DNC ad showing children asking for more arsenic in their water accusing Bush of wanting to poison children? How about the DNC ad showing Bush pushing an old lady in a wheelchair off a cliff? How about the NAACP ad linking Bush to the dragging death of Mr. Byrd? Are those ads "a bit much for you"?

Do you have a source for that ruling on that brief? I'd love to see it.

Do you have a source where the CIA is saying she was covert?

Thanks.

oops, make that "said my"

Anyone heard anything about the new memo the prosecutor received from the State Dept, dated something like 2 or 3 days after Joe Wilson's op-ed piece came out? Apparently it confirms her covert status at the time of the op-ed piece.
If anyone has heard where to find out more, please post...thanks!

Why would the office of the special prosecutor be investigating this leak two years on if it's a non issue? Remember, they didn't start this out by going after anyone in particular, they are investigating the LEAK. There are leaks ALL THE TIME and almost none of them spark an investigation of the special prosecutor's office (which doesn't happen automatically, btw). If it's no big deal, why are they still at it almost two years later? I would think it would be a relatively simple thing for that office, with it's almost unlimited funds and unbelievably broad scope to determine if a crime had been committed. They're all lawyers. What gives? Something stinks to high heaven in the state of Denmark.

Here ya go Karlh

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050721/pl_afp/usjusticemediapolitics_050721081419

Ace,

Plame's Identity Marked As Secret

The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

So her identity was covert at the time she was outed even though she worked at Langley.

As for the brief. The SC refused to hear the case.

mags,

You are making my point: Let the investigation run its course. If Rove is guilty, prosecute him. Its that simple.

But, us Conservatives can't understand why Osama bin Laden is innocent until proven guilty but Rove is guilty now. We just don't get it.

Lizzy and IrrationalThinker,

Well even though Washington was stolen by the democrats the election fraud still sways in favor of republicans.

And you know why don't you, the far-right fundies were on the boards of election. That guaranteed fraud in the machines and a real nasty little conspiracy.

The strongest message in the world can't beat a rigged machine: For those who cast the vote!

By the way what was this book I quoted out of? I think you've gone off on the fringe accusing me of wild stories now Thinker-man.

nick

Ace,

If you actually see what dem representatives and senators are saying it is this:

Let us conclude the investigation, but as a precaution, Rove should have his security clearance temporarily revoked pending the outcome of the investigation.

If an employee is accused of stealing money or leaking secrets to a competitor, you can bet the person's job would be suspended until the investigation was complete.

Is that asking too much of Bush and Rove?

MSNasquatch,

Ahhh..."refused to hear the case"...That's quite a bit different than your post earlier:

"By the way, the brief presented by the media outlets was ruled on already and there was no merit to their claims that a crime was not committed. Please keep up on current events and stop using past briefs that were overruled in your arguments."

"Overruled"? Talk about credibility....

You left off the next paragraph from the Washington Post:

"Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said."

Good luck.

MSNasquatch,

Ahhh..."refused to hear the case"...That's quite a bit different than your post earlier:

"By the way, the brief presented by the media outlets was ruled on already and there was no merit to their claims that a crime was not committed. Please keep up on current events and stop using past briefs that were overruled in your arguments."

"Overruled"? Talk about credibility....

You left off the next paragraph from the Washington Post:

"Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said."

Good luck.

Ace:

Its because your accusation is bullshit. They've been cherrypicking everything the democrats said in order to try to frame it, since the democrats have already framed them in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517_pf.html

The story confirms what the memo stated at the top, is that Plame was covert. Rove knew by reading the memo. CIA confirms, end of story mate.
nick

MNSasquatch,

I will soon be booted. You have my email address if you're up to the challenge.

I will say this: Karl Rove did lie about not having anything to do with it...He should be punished (I don't know how).

However, to prove he broke the law may be difficult. You Rabid Bush Haters have been trying to get Bush/Rove for years, this is no different. He's guilty of using poor judgement, in my opinion, but Rove is nothing on the national political scene. You guys think he is....Its fun to watch the Democrats now.

Again, if Karl Rove was nothing on the national scene he wouldn't have endangered national security.

There is a LAW that clearly has been violated, according to John Dean which is a variation of the covert disclosure agreement. It carries the same penalties, especially in wartime, under article 641...

And it seems that's what they are really looking at.

nick

nick,

It may be "clear" to the Democrats, no doubt. But let the investigation conclude. And again, if Rove is guilty, hang his ass. I would.

But given the past of the Democrats going after Bush, you gotta wonder how serious this is...

Ace,

Reporters Without Borders

On May 18, Reporters without Borders joined other organizations in filing an amici curiae (an act of petition) before the Supreme Court in support of the two journalists.

The SC refused to hear this petition. However:

Federal judge Thomas F. Hogan gave Judith Miller and Matthew Cooper one week to reveal their sources on 29 June or face the maximum penalty of 18 months in prison for "contempt of court". The Supreme Court has already declined to hear an appeal from the two in the Plume case in which the identity of a CIA agent of that name got into the press. The court will give its final verdict on 6 July.

The case was ruled upon and the appeal, along with the brief, is what the SC refused to hear. They allowed the judges ruling to stand. So while the brief was not heard, the ruling that a crime may have been committed and the investigation was valid stands. You seem to be nit-picking a bit here. The fact of the matter is the SP, the Grand Jury and the above mentioned Judge all believe there is something to investigate which may be a crime.

Your own quote can also be used against you in your covert argument:

"Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said."

This is where most Republicans lose credibilty. You claim that since her name was not specifically highlighted, starred, and printed with neon lights that she was obviously not a covert agent. Please use reasonable deductive reasoning to conclude that if her name is mentioned in a "secret" paragraph, then all of the words in that "secret" paragraph are also probably "secret."

Ace,

If it turns out Rove is guilty, and I am willing to wait until the Grand Jury ends, do you not think that this would tarnish the current administration?

Also, please remember that Scooter Libby (VP's guy) is also being investigate. If top advisors for the Pres and VP are involved, is it really such a large leap to conclude that the higher ups are involved as well?

I'm not saying Rove should be jailed without a trial. Innocent until proven guilty is something I believe strongly in, but take away his security clearence as a precaution. If he had any decency or sense he would resign and not put his good friend George through the embarassment of the circus. I am pretty torn about Rove's continued employement. On one hand, he makes George, the Bush administration and the entire republican party look bad. Deny it all you want, but he does, just look at the poll numbers among independents. On the other hand, I'm not so sure I am comfortable with someone who has that much access even being a POSSIBLE threat to national security. Do you think if anybody else had this hanging over them they'd say, "well, maybe but then again maybe not. Let's do nothing until the criminal investigation pans out (in how many years?) and see how it goes." Plus what if he gets off on a technicality, like he didn't use her name. It's insane to hold on to Rove like this. Republicans should be the FIRST one's to call for his resignation to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Suspend him with pay and if it turns out he did nothing wrong, then print that in huge headlines and I'll say, "whew, boy am I glad that turned out to be nothing". Think of it as raising the terror alert to orange and having no attack.

But look, at a minimum though Rove already committed perjury and obstruction for conspiracy. That's what the authorities are unpatient with him about now, because he's protecting a larger fish.

So at minimum he's already lied to them and they'll have him charged. But the focus is on whether he broke the covert disclosure agreement, and they are zeroing in on that...

Especially because the larger fish is Mr. Cheney.
nick

Nick,

I agree, at some point close to the end of the Grand Jury testimony, I would expect to start seeing some people fall on their swords to protect the man in charge - Cheney and his sidekick W.

McClellan will be the first one on the sword. He's all annointed and ready for sacrifice already.

Mags,

How would you like his job, trying to keep up with the latest lies of the day which change from hour to hour. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes, I feel sorry for the guy when he gets that deer in the headlights look.

I say it every day, it would be sad if it WASN"T SO DAMN FUNNY!

Poor Scott, just barely smart enough to be useful and too dumb to know when he's being set up.

"Poor Scott, just barely smart enough to be useful and too dumb to know when he's being set up."

Posted by mags on July 21, 2005 at 01:14 PM

Sounds like most of the people that voted for republicans...

Gives new meaning to the phrase "Beam me up Scotty"

Now we all know this guy has thrown up his hands, over five times and been eaten alive by the sharks in the press. How long before he goes the way of Ziegler? Everybody's out for the DSM blood now....

nick

"Sounds like most of the people that voted for republicans..."

Posted by MNSasquatch on July 21, 2005 at 01:17 PM

True. I think this may finally the straw that breaks the camel's back. Fingers crossed all of those Republicans Rove has stabbed in the back or threatened with some sort of terrible retribution can band together, come out of the closet and finally talk about what a monster he is. Just ask John McCain what an upstanding guy Rove is.

Nick,

Some of the best reading or viewing is the White House Press Briefings of the last couple of weeks. Pretty aggressive sharks at those briefings.

Here's another question; if there has been no crime, to what "ongoing criminal investigation" is Scott referring over and over and over and over (and over) again?

Mags,

You won't get any argument from me. The WH became very quiet when the email from Cooper was released. The story from them and the RNC changes daily as they try to find an excuse, any excuse that will let them walk away from this situation.

"Well, you see that's very easy to explain. What we have here is a serious ongoing criminal investigation.

I don't need to talk about the specifics of that ongoing investigation, we just don't know all the facts.

I mean right now, this is an ongoing investigation.

I realize Karl Rove broke the law, we are in an ongoing investigation.

I guess the president did answer that question, its just this will be an ongoing investigation.

Well, yes, this is very simple, today the ongoing investigation is ongoing and we don't know all the facts."

Over, and over, and over and over.....

The energizer bunny and its 10 year old nephew, could pre-rehearse the White House script pieces.
nick

They are using their usual tactic of saying something over and over until people believe it. It's an advertising tactic. Like those catchy slogans behind the podiums during speeches. Say it enough and people start thinking it's true. People come in here and say, "no crime was committed" because that's what they've heard....somewhere over and over and over instead of looking at the evidence: the criminal investigation, statements from the CIA, the ONGOING CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

nick, did he say he realized Karl Rove broke the law?

Rove through his lawyer claims to have never seen or heard about "the memo" disclosing Wilson's wife before he was shown it by the prosecutor's office.

The memo was based on notes of a 2/19/02 CIA meeting (was there one set of notes prepared and only one memo produced as a result of this meeting? were there verbal discussions with attendees?)

The memo was prepared in original form on two occasions-once in June 2003 for Grossman and again in July, 2003 for Powell (which of these memo is he denying reading and/or knowing about?)

Denise,

I would think the Powell memo since it was on Air Force One. It was given to Powell the day after Wilson's op-ed and 3 days before Plame was outed.

MNS--my point exactly. He never denied have knowledge of the information. His denial is specific to seeing "the memo".

Denise,

That would be the Powell memo. It would seem to me they will need to dig into the account of several witnesses, including Powell, to get the full story on who heard about this Memo.

Rove is lying and stonewalling again, is what that tells me. To prove he is lying about having not "heard" of this memo, the phonecall records are needed and a few witness accounts.
nick

this is funny
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050719/480/ny12107192047

Nicky,

In your previous quote: “ …… Have you seen the movie Bourne Identity? …”

You are correct, I made a mistake; you mentioned the movie. (I had read the book, which was better). But the point remains the same, much like many of your points, pure fiction.

Do you and Louie Farakkan spend much time together?

Once again, I still believe that everyone should wait and see what the investigation of the V.P. case comes up with. Keep in mind that if Miller had the goods on any prominent Republican she would have given up the goods already.

UnFrigginBelievable.

Its boiled down to the Rabid Bush Haters going after an advisor. You people just don't get it.

But hey..Rove could use the defense that Berger used (and you Bush Haters defended tenaciously) "I don't know how those papers ended up in my pants".

Good luck, guys. You've tried AWOL, insider trading at Harken, Abu Garaib abuse, Gitmo abuse, NYC Power outage, shuttle disaster, Enron, secret oil negotiations with Saudi Arabia (my personal favorite), August PDB, 911, WMDs (another favorite), and all you have to show for it is the GOP gaining seats in the Senate and House and Bush getting a majority of the American vote, something Bill Clinton never achieved.

I say keep on.

"Once again, I still believe that everyone should wait and see what the investigation of the V.P. case comes up with."

Posted by RationalThinker on July 21, 2005 at 02:09 PM

Seriously, you think that nothing at all should be done? Don't you think it would be prudent to maybe ask Karl to take a little vacation from the classified documents until it's cleared up? Just in case. Vacation with pay maybe, until this is over?

mags,

That's a good idea...

For Rove lying about not having any involvement, he should be place on temporary leave....But you guys wouldn't just let it stand there....You would demand further action too....That's why you won't get any cooperation from the White House. Too much bad blood. The stuff that you guys have blamed on Bush, he ain't takin' it.

Thanks.

Mags,

I can understand some people wanting something done (blood I think). However, from what I've read there is a lot more going on than what the public receives for digestion. On one hand you could have a conspiracy of biblical proportions (which I doubt), and on the other it could be nothing more than a total Witch hunt (which I think is closer to the truth).

But, since I'm not privy to the inner sanctum of the investigation, I will patiently to see how it unfolds.

I personally think there are bigger things in this world to worry about, and this to me is not one of them.

Boy!! I was scared for a little while. MSN was engaged in a calm conversation about opinions. This manner of discourse would not scare moderates. Then nick-t showed up and the vitriol returned to the discourse. I am relieved to know the moderates will continue to flock to the conservative candidates running from the nick_t's of the world.

Keep it up!!!!

Ace,

You forgot to list that Cheney was in control of the puppet president.

Oops, typing too fast.

"I will 'wait' patiently to see how it unfolds."

is what I meant to say.

Ace, you do realize that sounds a little...strange. It's actually not us "guys" going after Rove, it's the special prosecutor. I think we "guys" are a little annoyed that the administration didn't place Rove on some form of administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation and the idea that the white house is allowing a potential security risk to stay in an EXTREMELY sensitive position out of spite is terrifying to me and it should scare the pee out of you too. It should have happened as a matter of course.

Why should wait and see what the investigation comes up to demand information that I believe we were entitled to two years ago? Why was there ever a need for a special prosecutor, grand jury or investigation at all. Rove (though his attorney), Cooper, and Novak are all doing the circuit telling portions of the story; see what the responses are; changing stories based on what the others say they told the GJ -- I don't want this administration to be allowed to spin the results of the Grand Jury and then tailor its response later depending on what the GJ can prove. JUST TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH NOW so that we can move forward.

RationalThinker, the "witch hunt" to which you refer being the ongoing criminal investigation?

Now now Irrational,

If you thought the "Bourne Identity" was fiction why did you ignore it happening right here?

It might have been your "fictional story" but the reality of the CIA remains the same and your talking point isn't going to wash.

The very fact you freepers keep running back here, with the same crap and usual garbage tells everyone what they'd need to know.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/20/cia.leak.ap/index.html

: )
You are plain desperate.

You know the issue here is national related crimes. And all the bad blood crap about "Bush" just isn't going to fly. There's a whole multitude of scandals on Bush that haven't been surfacing because they've been, SUPRESSED by the corporate media. And that just happens to be falling apart now.

But they are all connected to the whole White House, even if not Bush himself. And you can't deny it anymore, that is why you freepers always run here claiming Bush is just unfairly bashed or whatever else and recite the same dilluted bullshit talking points.

You are like Scotty Mclellan puppets, seriously keep it up guys!! Oh and by the way, once voting is back under control the "unusual moderate swings" will dissapear. That's just the way it is.

nick

Dems_keep_it_up,

I do hope your not referring to me as a moderate? I am pretty conservative (which makes for a fun household with my wife, since she leans liberal).

However, I do enjoy a good discourse. ‘kinda’ why I come to this site; why go and speak with everyone that agrees with you. That is totally boring.

I may totally or just slightly disagree with someone’s opinion, but having a rational discussion of why someone believes the way the do is somewhat entertaining. And, just maybe, we might just learn something from the discussion.

Make it a great day!

I had a question for you Lizzy,

Since evidently no crime was committed, just like the downing street minutes(oops!) why is the Grand Jury still intensely investigating the matter and using a freely racial board of jurors?

Also why exactly is Rove continually changing his story, and his alibi before authorities and investigators?

While they've been able to get off before, doesn't look like anyone's getting off this time. Kind of reminds me of Duke "Randy" Cunningham who finally had enough and got picketed right out of office....He'll be resigning in shame.

Also just one point.....If its not a story, why has Tony Blair admitted that the meetings at 10 downing street happened and they fixed the facts around the policy?

Why did Tony Blair have to change his alibi to "We did this before the UN happened" when the UN didn't matter? Why are thousands dead and more on the way, with a war based on lies?

And by the way, how come there has been no word from the WH to answer those questions? Oh I wonder, its because someone's HIDING something big!!!!!

nick

Rational;

I do not know your political gradient. I have indicated to nick_t and Amanda_B that moderates have shifted their votes from Dems to Repubs mainly do to the shrill nature of the Dems respond to losing control of the government. The shrill sounds lack any plan of action other thanthe hatred of Repubs. This is why I reference the liberal bumper sticker "Hate is not a family value". The current Dems actions have hate as a Democrats' value. Dems keep it up!!

nick_t

Should the Grand Jury not indict Rove, will you clearly see this as a conspiracy to stack the jury?

I just want to know since you are the only clear thinker. nick_t for senator. Oohhh! Maybe nick_t for the supreme court. This high level of clarity would benefit a justice.

Also I know that the right wants to keep using the moderate talking about, but its all bullshit.

The moderates have seperated more and more from the GOP in every single vote, and if they did not, LEGISLATION wouldn't have been blocked.

Instead the democrats continue to be blamed for obstruction, when its nothing but the moderates of their own GOP party BREAKING RANK, and according to exit polls have abandoned their party long ago.

nick

To the point on indicting Rove, I don't think anyone doubts about that. Perjury & obstruction have already been confirmed so there would be no reason to even make-believe the Jury won't convict him.

In all due discourse, they are after more than Rove, Libby.

nick

The Sharks continue to plunder for blood, this has gotten real good!!
http://whitehouse.gov/
"Q Why does Karl Rove still have security clearance and access to classified documents when he has been revealed as a leaker of a secret agent, according to Time magazine's correspondent?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, there is an investigation that continues, and I think the President has made it clear that we're not going to prejudge the outcome of that investigation.

Q You already have the truth.

MR. McCLELLAN: We're not going to prejudge the outcome of that investigation through --

Q Does he have access to security documents?

MR. McCLELLAN: -- through media reports. And these questions came up over the last week --

Q Did he leak the name of a CIA agent?

MR. McCLELLAN: As I was trying to tell you, these questions have been answered.

Q No, they haven't.

Q Let me ask --

MR. McCLELLAN: Go ahead, David.

Q And they most certainly haven't. I think Helen is right, and the people watching us know that. And related to that, there are now --

MR. McCLELLAN: Let me correct the record. We've said for quite some time that this was an ongoing investigation, and that we weren't going to comment on it, so let me just correct the record.

Q If you want to make the record clear, then you also did make comments when a criminal investigation was underway, you saw fit to provide Karl Rove with a blanket statement of absolution. And that turned out to be no longer accurate --

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, and there were preferences expressed by those overseeing the investigation that we refrain from commenting on it while they're continuing to look at -- investigate it.

Q White House officials have been very clear through their attorneys or through other leaks to make it known that it was essentially journalists who educated them about who Valerie Plame was, what she did, and her role in sending her husband to Niger. It has now come to light that in fact White House officials were aware, or at least had access to a State Department memo that the President's own Secretary of State at the time had with him when he was traveling on Air Force One to Africa, which indicated both who she was, what she did, and her role in the Niger trip. So did the White House, in fact, know about her through this memo, or not?

MR. McCLELLAN: I thank you for wanting to proceed ahead with the investigation from this room, but I think that the appropriate place for that to happen is through those who are overseeing the investigation. The President directed us to cooperate fully, and that's exactly what we have been doing and continue to do.

Q But you don't deny that attorneys for Rove and others in the White House are speaking about these matters, creating a lot of these questions, right, that you say you can't speak to?

MR. McCLELLAN: As I said, we're not getting into talking about an ongoing investigation."

UH OH!!!! Can you freepers please sign up for the White House, Scott Mclellan needs you guys badly!!!!!

nick

I don't mind being call as an obstructionist concerning this white house and its policy.

Obstruct - Tom Delay, Abramson, Frisk, Rove and the whole boatload of them and all their conservative, socialite friends at World Comm and Enron.

Whoops wrong blog.

I wish one of those reporters would say, "so, Scotty, do you ever wanna just bitch-slap Karl for that whole getting-you-to-tell-everybody-the-idea-he-was-involved-is-'ridiculous' thing?"

Well, scotty has now admitted it was Karl. Yet he still says this is a serious ongoing criminal investigation!!!!

Hahahaha I love this, its so amazing and then watch the freepers squirm. Good god its like they were dying or melting!!!

"Ongoing" means they haven't gotten Libby, and the other conspirators yet. That's all it means.

nick

I believe Churchill is given credit for, I paraphrase;

If you are thirty and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are forty and not a conservative, you have no brain.

The aging of the baby boomers is causing a shift in the political power in America. As the boomers become older, certain views become more conservative. During this period, the rhetoric from the Democrats/Progressives has become shrill and derisive toward opposing views.

nick_t, whether you want to recognize the changes or not they are there. You can continue to see the world as flat. But until you recognize the horizon is not the end of the world, Democrats will continue to be outside the control of the governmental power structure. Howling!

Keep it up!!!!

Mr freeper,

If that was true, almost everyone I know above the age of 40 wouldn't be a liberal or independant.

That's basically complete crap. I'm amazed though that the usual talking points of Ken Mehlman find their way all over these blogs. It's very interesting.

nick

Let's ask George what he thinks,

“I’ve got all the confidence in the world the Justice Department will do a good, thorough job. And that’s exactly what I want them to do, is a good, thorough job,” Bush said.

An investigation is also currently being held as to whether the leak of Wilson’s wife’s identity had an impact on national security, McClellan said yesterday. Bush said that he hoped the Justice investigation into the leak would help prevent further unauthorized releases of sensitive information.

“There’s a lot of leaking in Washington, D.C. It’s a town famous for it,” Bush said. “This investigation in finding the truth, it will not only hold someone to account who should not have leaked — and this is a serious charge, by the way. We’re talking about a criminal action, but also hopefully will help set a clear signal we expect other leaks to stop, as well. And so I look forward to finding the truth,” he added.

nick_t

I understand. The world is flat.

keep it up

"If anyone has been leaking out of my administration, I want to know who it is, and I promise that person will be taken care of."

"Taken care of" he will be, by the neocons. Supreme Justice Rove if Cheney has anything to say.....

The world is round, and that's beside the point.

nick

As baby boomers start to think about Bush's plans to reduce their SS benefits, you bet their political views will change. They won't be too conservative when they have to work well into their 70's for minimum wages while dealing with the symptoms of various diseases like Parkinson's -- knowing that stem cell research that the Republicans blocked in the 2005 could have cured them. That tax cuts for the rich bandrupted the SS Trust Fund.

They seem to making a mountain out of an anthill. We went to war in Iraq because Saddam did cooperate with the United Nations and the resoultions that were put forth after the first Gulf War. It took 12 years of failed resolutions before anybody did anything. Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors. If he didn't have anything to hide why kick them out. He made the choice not to let the inspectors back in. Why must the dems insist that it was all about a lie. The same things were said in 1998 by the beloved Bill Clinton. He probably would have taken action in Iraq if he wasn't worried about taking action into the oval office a.k.a Monica Gate. Heck Bill Clinton LIED UNDER OATH and the dems are making a bigger deal out of Karl Rove.

Lizzy,

As usual the free republican double speak is heavy on rhetoric, light on facts.

FACT: The U.N. security exscuse is dead. Each resolution was already approved and complied with.
http://www.rawstory.com/exclusives/muriel/path_of_war_timeline_613.htm

Saddom was already co-operating with ALL weapons inspectors, and they had removed any missiles or things of that nature. Saddom would have been just fine. And if he ever did get hostile, we could have removed him through a CIA black op. No need for a blood war based on lies.

FACT: The UN was complying with all resolutions, and Tony Blair knew this. His lie costed millions of dollars.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sc7644.doc

FACT: The real reason Cheney wanted a full-scale war with Iraq was to remake the middle east into a christian charicature which would provide him OIL. He wanted to build the north pipeline, take over, and then expand by selling big time weapons deals and the ARAMCO bases into Iran. He had always wanted this. It is no secret. He used a bunch of brainless fundies to achieve his corporate dictatorship, since he knew they would follow neo-conservativism off of a cliff. The most loyal supporters are the completely ignorant.

I know its hard to accept at this point that this war which has costed us all so dearly, is based on pure lies.

http://newamericancentury.org/

But it is, and always has been. I know it will be hard to accept, so please read the PNAC plan and get real familiar. You've been used. And no blaming Clinton changes it anymore.

nick

"If he didn't have anything to hide why kick them out"

He didn't have anything to hide as it turned out. No WMDs.

He probably wanted the US to think he had them so we would leave Iraq alone. It was a good defensive strategy until Cheney and the wacko neocons got in power. Just think ... all those oil reserves securely in the hands of American oil men and a way to show the world that they could force a Christian democracy on the Middle East... and make a tidy profit for Halliburton at the same time.

Shame that the Iraqis and the rest of the world didn't agree. Saddam could have been pensioned off to Libya or Eygpt leaving the UN to help set up a stable Iraqi sans Saddam. Instead we have the Bush alternative reality.

nick_t

Get stories to quote.

I started to read the UN press release. Appears to me that the UN reported a failure of Saddam to fulfill the requirements under the resolution. Specifically, Saddam failed to properly document the status of declared Weapons of Mass Destruction. Golly. Imagine Saddam declaring the possession of VX gas (Weapon of Mass Destruction). Kind of reminds me of the liberals screams that the military failed to provide adequate protection from gas attacks.

I can hardly wait to read the rest of the articles you depend on to condemn all who oppose your view.

keep it up

Dems_Keep,

Saddom did not report on "Hostile Weapon of Mass Destruction D" because there were none.

He didn't even know what they were talking about. Saddom was confused about all sorts of things and even still the weapons inspectors went in, on the ground, and were allowed to complete the investigation. Had they been allowed to complete the rest of the inspection, Saddom would have been cleared.

Instead, after talking to Judith Miller weapon inspector David E Kelly was suicided. I wonder why? Probably saw the Halliburton file.

nick

nick_t

I quote from the report;
At the same time, he drew attention to some outstanding issues and questions. On the nerve agent VX -- one of the most toxic ever developed -- he recalled Iraq had declared that it had produced VX only on a pilot scale and, with poor quality, had never weaponized it. But, UNMOVIC had conflicting information, including indications that the agent had been weaponized. A number of chemical bombs containing some 1,000 tonnes of chemical agent were unaccounted for, and several thousand chemical rockets were unaccounted for.

On biological agents, he said Iraq had provided little evidence for its declared production of 8,500 litres of anthrax and no convincing evidence of its destruction, which it stated it had unilaterally done in 1991. There were strong indications that Iraq had produced more anthrax than it had declared, and that at least some of that had been retained after the declared destruction date. A significant quantity of imported bacterial growth media sufficient to produce about 5,000 litres of concentrated anthrax had not been declared.

Are you stipulating Saddam did not complete the forms himself, so he is absolved from all responsibility? Are you serious?

FAT KARL: "It depends on what your definition of is, is you get me?"

KARL ROVE AND LEWIS LIBBY CAUGHT IN OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, PERJURY

"Bloomberg News has slotted a story alleging that senior Bush advisor Karl Rove and Vice President Dick Cheney's Chief of Staff 'Scooter' Libby provided false testimony to the special prosecutor to a Washington-based grand jury, RAW STORY has been told.

Patrick Fitzgerald, the Chicago special prosecutor appointed to investigate the outing of former covert agent Valerie Plame Wilson, may also be looking at whether other crimes -- such as perjury, obstruction of justice or leaking classified information -- were committed."

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Report_Bloomberg_to_reveal_Rove_Libby_gave_false_te_0721.html

The days of the frog march are coming right up!!!!! Looks like not only conspiracy, but they're getting the Tricky Dick Cheney forced into the spotlight.

We could be looking at a soon impeached VP, by force!

nick

Regarding anthrax,

The UN did not get decided with its resolutions to go after anthrax attacks. The very fact they were only hiding anthrax chemicals is destructive in itself.

It undermines the entire, full rationality for going to war at all: Which was weapons of mass destruction, not some long thought destroyed anthrax.

http://democracyrising.us/content/view/268/164/#_ftn8

Yes they did lie and take war to Iraq. Even before the weapons inspectors were finished, which was illegal under UN charter.

nick

He didn't have anything to hide as it turned out. No WMDs. SandyH.

So, we should use information obtained after the fact to make the decision of our actions before the fact? So ignore the Iraq's admission of the presence of WMD's because after the invasion, you did not see any of the WMD's?

So we should not have had the food for oil program?

Is this flat earth thinking? Are you related to nick_t?

nick_t

I have not read the article at democracyrising.us. I am willing to bet this site is a non-partisan group to research the truth about important events. I am willing to bet they endeavor to report the facts no matter the result.

Your track record with qouted stories have not been good so far.

Keep it up.

Dems_Keep,

That is very odd of you. It is not my fault if you are afraid to read partisan sites, because you can find the facts right on there.

Yes, there are other sources but I didn't find them on that page. It is possible to look at liberal or democratic websites, and obtain reliable information. I'm going to be fascinated if you try it in this case because it happens to answer your question.

nick

nick_t

I am not afraid to visit and read at the site. I have just been doing some work and trying to read the first articles you recommended. I will read them.

I like your passion. I will opine after reading them.

http://democracyrising.us/content/view/268/164/#_ftn8

nick_t

Appears this story is a summary of information from several sources (IR and SR). It does appear the authors intent is to condemn/impeach the president for lying to Congress and the American people. The lie would be the claim that the president knew as untrue the claim that Iraq was attempting to purchase uranium (500 tons) from Niger. Am I correct so far? The president knew it to be false as the CIA informed white house staff that the British claim was over blown. The president choose to proceed with the claim to keep the british from being left flapping in the wind. The assumption is that the president knew the lie was necessary to convince the American people of the need to invade Iraq. Am I still on target?

The author does overlook that the same CIA operative providing the statement the Brits overstated the claim about Niger and the uranium, also stated that Iraq already had 500 tons of uranium.

You are right. Why would the Iraqis need to buy 500 tons of uranium when they already had enough. Did you read the article, nick_t? Trust me, I am saving these sites as favorites. They do have answers to the questions.

Keep it up.

Dems,

Excellent work I think we can have a fair debate here.

I concede that the CIA agent could not have the final answer on what did he know about Iraq/Niger and when did he know it.

But, I'll bring up this little problem. That CIA agent and his unit claimed there was 500 tons of uranium or more being sought for Iraq, under political pressure of the Vice President's office. They did not actually say for a fact that the claim was real. If it is proven that these CIA agents were fixing the facts for the VP, then that would mean the case for war had been deliberate lies.

Not massive failures of intelligence, but politically motivated lies since the Vice President kept visiting these CIA agents regularly. That is the point of the legal case.
obliged,
nick

The UN weapons inspectors were doing their job and had not found any WMD "before the fact". When it became evident that they were finding only evidence that disputed the administration's "fixed" intel, Bush aburptly stopped their work and started his invasion.

That was the "global earth" view of everyone but the coalition of the willing...Bush, Blair, and a band of other countries looking for a fast handout for pledging 30 or 40 advisors and a few monkeys. Congress had been suckered into going along with this farce and was stuck having to "support the troops" already in Iraq under dubious circumstances.

Those who hold to the flat earth theory still think that the Shiites will opt for a Western-style democracy instead of a Islamic theocracy...and that al Sistani will invite the United States to keep military bases there once the civil war is over. We are not going to get anything out of this whole sorry foreign entaglement but higher gas prices and thousands of casualties.

Sometimes I think the only reason Bush went through with this (even with the mounting evidence against there being any WMDs) is that he had already put our troops in position months before and he didn't want to appear stupid by having to bring them home for nothing. As if that isn't what he looks like today anyway.

"The omission by Rove created doubt for federal investigators, almost from the inception of their criminal probe into who leaked Plame's name to columnist Robert Novak, as to whether Rove was withholding crucial information from them, and perhaps even misleading or lying to them, the sources said."

Let's see, NOW we have all you stupid liberals crying for someone to go to jail for misleading authorities and impeding an investigation? Where were you when the President, Bill Clinton, did the same thing? NOWHERE, that's where.

This is bigger than Karl ROGUE and Scooter LIDDY. This administration has been stonewalling every investigation into its dealings - be it the 9/11 commision or the Cheney/Sierra club investigation. Keep the pressure on.......!!

Keep the heat on Rove'r.
His security clearance should be suspended until he is cleared. As they do with police officers.
Like to recommend Radioinsidescoop.com for those wanting to hear some audio on Rove- Traitorgate. Its Mark Levine. check him out on Rove.................Robt..

AndyS0,

If the Bush admin had nothing to hide on Downing Street why are they continuing to commit perjury by printing a lie on the Whitehouse website?

"Disarm Saddam Hussein

The gravest danger we face in the war on terror is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

Twelve years ago, Saddam Hussein agreed to disarm all weapons of mass destruction. For 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement.
Three months ago, the United Nations Security Council gave Saddam his final chance to disarm. He has shown his utter contempt for the U.N.
The U.N. and U.S. intelligence sources have known for some time that Saddam Hussein has materials to produce chemical and biological weapons, but he has not accounted for them:
26,000 liters of anthrax—enough to kill several million people
38,000 liters of botulinum toxin
500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agents
Almost 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents
From three Iraqi defectors, we know that Iraq in the late 1990s had several mobile biological weapons labs. But he has not disclosed them.
The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, a design for a nuclear weapon, and was working on methods of enriching uranium for a nuclear bomb. He recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa, according to the British Government. He has attempted to purchase high strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons, according to our intelligence sources. Yet he has not credibly explained these activities.
Thousands of Iraqi security personnel are at work hiding documents and materials from the UN inspectors.
Iraqi officials accompany all inspectors in order to intimidate witnesses.
Iraq is blocking U-2 surveillance flights requested by the U.N.
Saddam Hussein has ordered that scientists who cooperate with the UN be killed, along with their families.
Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including al-Qaida members. He could provide hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own. It would take just one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known.
The United States will ask the UN Security Council to convene next week to consider the facts of Iraq’s ongoing defiance of the world. We will consult. But if Saddam Hussein does not disarm, we will act for the safety of our people, and for the peace of the world."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/nationalsecurity/disarm.html

No WMD was found!!! There was barely a few leftover nerve agents, nothing at all that would have havoked the USA. Intelligence failure? Not according to the law! VP Dick Cheney was on top of every CIA operation going on during Niger, he fixed the intelligence.

Illegal war according to all UN resolutions. The scope of this lie would equal impeachment.
nick

KARL ROVE, LEWIS LIBBY, HADLEY, CHENEY GUILTY OF TREASON: HIGH LEVEL ESPIONAGE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES

"(a) Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation, goes upon, enters, flies over, or otherwise obtains information concerning any vessel, aircraft, work of defense, navy yard, naval station, submarine base, fueling station, fort, battery, torpedo station, dockyard, canal, railroad, arsenal, camp, factory, mine, telegraph, telephone, wireless, or signal station, building, office, research laboratory or station or other place connected with the national defense owned or constructed, or in progress of construction by the United States or under the control of the United States, or of any of its officers, departments, or agencies, or within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States, or any place in which any vessel, aircraft, arms, munitions, or other materials or instruments for use in time of war are being made, prepared, repaired, stored, or are the subject of research or development, under any contract or agreement with the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or with any person on behalf of the United States, or otherwise on behalf of the United States, or any prohibited place so designated by the President by proclamation in time of war or in case of national emergency in which anything for the use of the Army, Navy, or Air Force is being prepared or constructed or stored, information as to which prohibited place the President has determined would be prejudicial to the national defense; or

(b) Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense; or

(c) Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, receives or obtains or agrees or attempts to receive or obtain from any person, or from any source whatever, any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note, of anything connected with the national defense, knowing or having reason to believe, at the time he receives or obtains, or agrees or attempts to receive or obtain it, that it has been or will be obtained, taken, made, or disposed of by any person contrary to the provisions of this chapter; or

(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or

(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or

(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense,
(1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or
(2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.

(h) (1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to the United States, irrespective of any provision of State law, any property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds the person obtained, directly or indirectly, from any foreign government, or any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, as the result of such violation. For the purposes of this subsection, the term “State” includes a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.
(2) The court, in imposing sentence on a defendant for a conviction of a violation of this section, shall order that the defendant forfeit to the United States all property described in paragraph (1) of this subsection."
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000793----000-.html

According to governing law, article 793, of the US Constitution high level officials may have broken both. Each law may have been breached in addition to article 641, which could be a very serious charge.

If found guilty of harming national security, Rove, Libby, and the big fish could be sentenced to and not limited to illicit conspiracy, long-time confinement in federal prison, and or being fined of up to 10,000 dollars.

Each article under this act, shows that one may not disclose covert classified information which can endanger the United States. If indeed, as testament to, the CIA contingency who tracks weapons of mass destruction has been dissolved, and there is no longer a way to keep track of nor secure borders from terrorist nukes, the law of supporting terrorism and international warfare acts in a time of war may apply.

In the fallout of the covert protection act, numerous destruction to United States national security has been confirmed. A lie in order to wage a catergorically manufactured war, and also may include illegalities in each statute. In the process, long-term defense of the United States has been breached.

In essence, the friends of Dick Cheney may be guilty of deliberate harm to the United States. Karl Rove, assisting a swastika nation in another country, has committed a traitorous act against the United States.

While not fully detailed, Rove's account may be equal to selling information to the Chinese government which was defined as treason. Other govt officers, such as Jeb Bush, has already been found to sell weapons chip information to china see: http://www.insider-magazine.com/unrestricted_warfare.htm

If during a time of war, the act of treason is even more serious. Fantasy films like the Bourne Identity give us a glimpse of these events, but we never imagine what it would be like if it happened here. It has happened here.

nick

Text Of Clinton Statement On Iraq
Text of President Clinton's address to Joint Chiefs of Staff and Pentagon staff:

Please be seated. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Vice President, for your remarks and your leadership. Thank you, Secretary Cohen, for the superb job you have done here at the Pentagon and on this most recent very difficult problem. Thank you, General Shelton, for being the right person at the right time.

Thank you, General Ralston, and the members of the joint chiefs, General Zinni, Secretary Albright, Secretary Slater, DCIA Tenet, Mr. Bowles, Mr. Berger, Senator Robb thank you for being here and Congressman Skelton. Thank you very much, and for your years of service to America and your passionate patriotism both of you. And to the members of our armed forces and others who work here to protect our national security.

I have just received a very fine briefing from our military leadership on the status of our forces in the Persian Gulf. Before I left the Pentagon, I wanted to talk to you and all those whom you represent the men and women of our military. You, your friends and your colleagues are on the front lines of this crisis in Iraq.

I want you, and I want the American people, to hear directly from me what is at stake for America in the Persian Gulf, what we are doing to protect the peace, the security, the freedom we cherish, why we have taken the position we have taken.

I was thinking as I sat up here on the platform, of the slogan that the first lady gave me for her project on the millennium, which was, remembering the past and imagining the future.

Now, for that project, that means preserving the Star Spangled Banner and the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and it means making an unprecedented commitment to medical research and to get the best of the new technology. But that's not a bad slogan for us when we deal with more sober, more difficult, more dangerous matters.

Those who have questioned the United States in this moment, I would argue, are living only in the moment. They have neither remembered the past nor imagined the future.

So first, let's just take a step back and consider why meeting the threat posed by Saddam Hussein is important to our security in the new era we are entering.

This is a time of tremendous promise for America. The superpower confrontation has ended; on every continent democracy is securing for more and more people the basic freedoms we Americans have come to take for granted. Bit by bit the information age is chipping away at the barriers economic, political and social that once kept people locked in and freedom and prosperity locked out.

But for all our promise, all our opportunity, people in this room know very well that this is not a time free from peril, especially as a result of reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals.

We have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st century. They feed on the free flow of information and technology. They actually take advantage of the freer movement of people, information and ideas.

And they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen.

There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq. His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us.

I want the American people to understand first the past how did this crisis come about?

And I want them to understand what we must do to protect the national interest, and indeed the interest of all freedom-loving people in the world.

Remember, as a condition of the cease-fire after the Gulf War, the United Nations demanded not the United States the United Nations demanded, and Saddam Hussein agreed to declare within 15 days this is way back in 1991 within 15 days his nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them, to make a total declaration. That's what he promised to do.

The United Nations set up a special commission of highly trained international experts called UNSCOM, to make sure that Iraq made good on that commitment. We had every good reason to insist that Iraq disarm. Saddam had built up a terrible arsenal, and he had used it not once, but many times, in a decade-long war with Iran, he used chemical weapons, against combatants, against civilians, against a foreign adversary, and even against his own people.

And during the Gulf War, Saddam launched Scuds against Saudi Arabia, Israel and Bahrain.

Now, instead of playing by the very rules he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War, Saddam has spent the better part of the past decade trying to cheat on this solemn commitment. Consider just some of the facts:

Iraq repeatedly made false declarations about the weapons that it had left in its possession after the Gulf War. When UNSCOM would then uncover evidence that gave lie to those declarations, Iraq would simply amend the reports.

For example, Iraq revised its nuclear declarations four times within just 14 months and it has submitted six different biological warfare declarations, each of which has been rejected by UNSCOM.

In 1995, Hussein Kamal, Saddam's son-in-law, and the chief organizer of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, defected to Jordan. He revealed that Iraq was continuing to conceal weapons and missiles and the capacity to build many more.

Then and only then did Iraq admit to developing numbers of weapons in significant quantities and weapon stocks. Previously, it had vehemently denied the very thing it just simply admitted once Saddam Hussein's son-in-law defected to Jordan and told the truth. Now listen to this, what did it admit?

It admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability notably 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs.

And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production.

As if we needed further confirmation, you all know what happened to his son-in-law when he made the untimely decision to go back to Iraq.

Next, throughout this entire process, Iraqi agents have undermined and undercut UNSCOM. They've harassed the inspectors, lied to them, disabled monitoring cameras, literally spirited evidence out of the back doors of suspect facilities as inspectors walked through the front door. And our people were there observing it and had the pictures to prove it.

Despite Iraq's deceptions, UNSCOM has nevertheless done a remarkable job. Its inspectors the eyes and ears of the civilized world have uncovered and destroyed more weapons of mass destruction capacity than was destroyed during the Gulf War.

This includes nearly 40,000 chemical weapons, more than 100,000 gallons of chemical weapons agents, 48 operational missiles, 30 warheads specifically fitted for chemical and biological weapons, and a massive biological weapons facility at Al Hakam equipped to produce anthrax and other deadly agents.

Over the past few months, as they have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions.

By imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits, including, I might add, one palace in Baghdad more than 2,600 acres large by comparison, when you hear all this business about presidential sites reflect our sovereignty, why do you want to come into a residence, the White House complex is 18 acres. So you'll have some feel for this.

One of these presidential sites is about the size of Washington, D.C. That's about how many acres did you tell me it was? 40,000 acres. We're not talking about a few rooms here with delicate personal matters involved.

It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them.

The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons.

Now, against that background, let us remember the past here. It is against that background that we have repeatedly and unambiguously made clear our preference for a diplomatic solution.

The inspection system works. The inspection system has worked in the face of lies, stonewalling, obstacle after obstacle after obstacle. The people who have done that work deserve the thanks of civilized people throughout the world.

It has worked. That is all we want. And if we can find a diplomatic way to do what has to be done, to do what he promised to do at the end of the Gulf War, to do what should have been done within 15 days within 15 days of the agreement at the end of the Gulf War, if we can find a diplomatic way to do that, that is by far our preference.

But to be a genuine solution, and not simply one that glosses over the remaining problem, a diplomatic solution must include or meet a clear, immutable, reasonable, simple standard.

Iraq must agree and soon, to free, full, unfettered access to these sites anywhere in the country. There can be no dilution or diminishment of the integrity of the inspection system that UNSCOM has put in place.

Now those terms are nothing more or less than the essence of what he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War. The Security Council, many times since, has reiterated this standard. If he accepts them, force will not be necessary. If he refuses or continues to evade his obligations through more tactics of delay and deception, he and he alone will be to blame for the consequences.

I ask all of you to remember the record here what he promised to do within 15 days of the end of the Gulf War, what he repeatedly refused to do, what we found out in 1995, what the inspectors have done against all odds. We have no business agreeing to any resolution of this that does not include free, unfettered access to the remaining sites by people who have integrity and proven confidence in the inspection business. That should be our standard. That's what UNSCOM has done, and that's why I have been fighting for it so hard. And that's why the United States should insist upon it.

Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made?

Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.

And some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal. And I think every one of you who's really worked on this for any length of time believes that, too.

Now we have spent several weeks building up our forces in the Gulf, and building a coalition of like-minded nations. Our force posture would not be possible without the support of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, the GCC states and Turkey. Other friends and allies have agreed to provide forces, bases or logistical support, including the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain and Portugal, Denmark and the Netherlands, Hungary and Poland and the Czech Republic, Argentina, Iceland, Australia and New Zealand and our friends and neighbors in Canada.

That list is growing, not because anyone wants military action, but because there are people in this world who believe the United Nations resolutions should mean something, because they understand what UNSCOM has achieved, because they remember the past, and because they can imagine what the future will be depending on what we do now.

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. We want to seriously reduce his capacity to threaten his neighbors.

I am quite confident, from the briefing I have just received from our military leaders, that we can achieve the objective and secure our vital strategic interests.

Let me be clear: A military operation cannot destroy all the weapons of mass destruction capacity. But it can and will leave him significantly worse off than he is now in terms of the ability to threaten the world with these weapons or to attack his neighbors.

And he will know that the international community continues to have a will to act if and when he threatens again. Following any strike, we will carefully monitor Iraq's activities with all the means at our disposal. If he seeks to rebuild his weapons of mass destruction, we will be prepared to strike him again.

The economic sanctions will remain in place until Saddam complies fully with all U.N. resolutions.

Consider this already these sanctions have denied him $110 billion. Imagine how much stronger his armed forces would be today, how many more weapons of mass destruction operations he would have hidden around the country if he had been able to spend even a small fraction of that amount for a military rebuilding.

We will continue to enforce a no-fly zone from the southern suburbs of Baghdad to the Kuwait border and in northern Iraq, making it more difficult for Iraq to walk over Kuwait again or threaten the Kurds in the north.

Now, let me say to all of you here as all of you know the weightiest decision any president ever has to make is to send our troops into harm's way. And force can never be the first answer. But sometimes, it's the only answer.

You are the best prepared, best equipped, best trained fighting force in the world. And should it prove necessary for me to exercise the option of force, your commanders will do everything they can to protect the safety of all the men and women under their command.

No military action, however, is risk-free. I know that the people we may call upon in uniform are ready. The American people have to be ready as well.

Dealing with Saddam Hussein requires constant vigilance. We have seen that constant vigilance pays off. But it requires constant vigilance. Since the Gulf War, we have pushed back every time Saddam has posed a threat.

When Baghdad plotted to assassinate former President Bush, we struck hard at Iraq's intelligence headquarters.

When Saddam threatened another invasion by amassing his troops in Kuwait along the Kuwaiti border in 1994, we immediately deployed our troops, our ships, our planes, and Saddam backed down.

When Saddam forcefully occupied Irbil in northern Iraq, we broadened our control over Iraq's skies by extending the no-fly zone.

But there is no better example, again I say, than the U.N. weapons inspection system itself. Yes, he has tried to thwart it in every conceivable way, but the discipline, determination, year-in-year-out effort of these weapons inspectors is doing the job. And we seek to finish the job. Let there be no doubt, we are prepared to act.

But Saddam Hussein could end this crisis tomorrow simply by letting the weapons inspectors complete their mission. He made a solemn commitment to the international community to do that and to give up his weapons of mass destruction a long time ago now. One way or the other, we are determined to see that he makes good on his own promise.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq reminds us of what we learned in the 20th century and warns us of what we must know about the 21st. In this century, we learned through harsh experience that the only answer to aggression and illegal behavior is firmness, determination, and when necessary action.

In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.

If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program.

But if we act as one, we can safeguard our interests and send a clear message to every would-be tyrant and terrorist that the international community does have the wisdom and the will and the way to protect peace and security in a new era. That is the future I ask you all to imagine. That is the future I ask our allies to imagine.

If we look at the past and imagine that future, we will act as one together. And we still have, God willing, a chance to find a diplomatic resolution to this, and if not, God willing, the chance to do the right thing for our children and grandchildren.

Thank you very much.

Lizzy,

Too late!! Don't you realize that Clinton was part of PNAC?

You were deceived, doesn't matter anymore if you go back to Clinton.

http://newamericancentury.org/

Read the official timeline. Clinton was pressured severely by Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Armitage, Jeb and the rest of PNAC's staff to go to war with Iraq. Instead of the war, he imposed sanctions. Bombed kosovo etc. They wanted war with Iraq long back before this even happened.

nick

Lizzy,
That is so pertinent because, as everyone knows, shortly after that speech was made, the US, under Bill Clinton's insistance, conducted a ground invasion of Iraq which killed over 1700 American troops to date as well as thousands of Iraqis and.....oh wait, that was Bush

Nick T,

First of all, the issue here's not about the war, it's about Rove's involvement in the leak of a CIA officer. Quit skirting the issue. Oh wait, you're a liberal, that's what you do. But please, try and focus for a second here. And by the way it was your two boys, Clinton and Gore, that sold top secret information to the Chinese. Or did you forget that pathetic video of Al Gore hosting a fundraiser at the White House for the Chinese. Oh wait, I forgot!!....He didn't KNOW it was a fundraiser....HA HA

The day McClellan said the administration would no longer make any comments was the day they realized that Rove had perjured himself.

I think the Justice Department is leaking much of the info from the grand jury in the hopes that they can force the Special Prosecutor to move ahead with lesser charges and not look into anybody else's involvement. Notice how Scott keeps saying, "when the investigation ends soon"?

But it won't work. After Ken Starr's six-year Watergate investigation, there's a precident to keep looking. Fizgerald is going to be railroaded into cutting this short.

When the DSMs were leaked, he realized why Rove and Libby's testamony wasn't adding up. Finally, he knew why they were lying. Like any good prosecutor, he's not going to quit till he finds out all those involved and how they set up this scam. It is after all, a criminal case with treason being committed.

The Special Prosecutor is now dealing with a criminal organization. Who cares about the little fish who peddled the goods out on the street? He wants the head of this crime family.

AndyS0,

Guess what? It is about the WAR and treason: and always has been

Treason: Most serious crime, and established under the real penalty of the constitution

This is ALL about the illegal war, and about Karl Rove lying in order to get it while destroying our CIA.

Downing Street Homepage: The blowing cover of CIA agents to fix intelligence, and wage illegal wars. Front Page News.

Thank us all and Cindy Sheehan, we might just save your future.

nick