Thank you Congressman Murtha, for your brave honesty. If the democratic party would follow your lead we could win elections across the country! Finally a clear cut strong voice of truth! We haven't had this for so long. Keep it up we need you.

It is wonderful to see a someone be honest about what they feel and think w/o too much spin!!

There is more to the story of what the Bush administration has done/or not done in Iraq. The abuse and torture and the use of most likely chemical weapons is soo far from anyone's hearts and minds... it certainly is not any faith that I'm familar with??? ... seems like the bush administration treats everyone the same... slash and burn... in the end it is only the bush administration that is resonsible for the outcome of their actions.

But it is the world that is suffering... I can see why there is going to be a cut in college aid.. don't want too many thinking people...

Like the greatest scam ever.. Bush being "born again (rove's idea)" soo his history does not count...

I just read my email from Governor Dean, and the first question that popped into my mind was why didn't Murtha's statement originate from the DNC??? Is anyone minding the business of the party there? Don't they realize that at least 80% of Democrats agree with Congressman Murtha's statement and could have made argument a year ago??? Come on Governor Dean - wake up!!! Get some backbone and let's sweep next yers elections!!!

Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) has been a success. - period. The basic Bush plan called for the elimination of Saddam Hussein and the takeover of their resources, specifically oil. That has been accomplished. Now it is time to remove our troops from Iraq and let the Iraqis left over from our genocide to pick up the pieces and return to some semblance of normalcy. I do not understand why that is so difficult for most people to accept. We're done! We won! Now let's get the hell out of there and stop the unnecessary killing of both Iraqis and Americans!

Saw this on MSNBC,

Democrats gave Murtha a standing ovation behind closed doors, but most kept their distance in public. “It’s a trap,” explained a Democratic strategist. “If the party comes out for a unilateral six-month withdrawal, that would become the issue for ’06, and they [Republicans] would kill us again.

Whoever this Democratic "strategist" is, he should be let go. The republicans will kill us if we have no spine and are afraid to speak what we believe because we might then lose an election. Political courage. Murtha is leading the charge.

I totally agree with "Chicago"! The majority of this nation is hell-bent for leaving Iraq and bringing our troops home - the sooner the better! Kick that "strategist" back to the Red state he came from.....it's past time for a little Progressive Liberal Leadership now. There is NO support for the war in Iraq any longer, other than the support falsely created by the very monsters that got us in there in the first place. The sooner we leave Iraq, the more American, British, and Iraqi lives will be spared. Period!

As a fellow Marine, Congressman Murtha has become my hero in Congress. ALL soldiers would rather have peace than war. There is no glory in killing or being killed.
Let our country leave Iraq to the Iraqi people and assist them along with our nations in rebuilding their country.
Enough innocent civilians have been killed, maimed, and tortured already. Enough American and foreign national soldiers have lost their lives for an unjust and illegal war.
It is PAST time to stop the Bush agenda of American imperialism and bring our troops home. If he wants to continue to sacrifice our sons and daughters, let him send his daughters first!

I would disagree with chicago and jimmy. I think it could be political suicide to adaopt a 'get out of Iraq' hardline. (even though I _do_ think we should get out asap) Politically, the dems need to say 'now is the time for diplomacy, and Bush has shown that he is terrible at that.'

This is true: the war in Iraq _cannot_ be won with military force. Every terrorist our brave soldiers eliminate, two more are made. We need to slowly back away, and step up our involvement in the Iraq political process.

they really hate us there
http://www.pbase.com/nclinh/iraq_desert&page=all

You can certainly say THAT again.

And while next month marks 2 years since Saddam's capture, I say we can only say Mission Accomplished once Saddam and the insurgents, not to mention Al-Zarqawi and Bin Laden, are all put to death (and that may take a long time!).

With Bush's abysmal performance and the despicable behavior of the core-cabal of the Republican Party, it just may be that some of them are getting disgusted. In addition to supporting Democrats, we should do everything possible to drive wedges into the Republican party. Getting just a few to renounce the "swift-boat" tactics could sway LARGE numbers of Republican voters that "my party right or wrong" is WRONG. While sweeping them ALL out of office would be ideal, any means to introduce self-doubt into the Republican machine can serve the country well. Let's turn the tables on that old joke about not belonging to any organized party. Michael Moore makes an excellent point that the vast majority of people who consider themselves Republicans are just chattel to the party's power brokers. We need to get them to realize that - to understand they have made a deal with the devil. Getting just a few Republican leaders to more-openly question the party line can accelerate the implosion that already appears to have started.

I sent the following email to my congressman, Henry Hyde (R-Illinois)

"I sent the following memo today to your colleague Congressman Hastert:

"Congressman Hastert, your statements today about Congressman Murtha were the utterances of the lowest, most despicable, knee-jerk political hack imagineable. While I do not live in your district and thus cannot vote against you, I promise to campaign in every way I can think of to get my neighbors who DO live in your district to realize the error of theirs ways and send you packing."

Congressman Hyde, you can urge your fellow Republicans to do the right thing and admit you share your party with evil people who should never have been elected to public office, and, worse, hacks so despicable they could NEVER be elected to anything who have become FAR too influential, making critical (and woefully wrong) decisions affecting the future of our country.

I was once a registered Republican; I was raised by staunch Republicans and proud to associate myself with the party of Lincoln. The party has been co-opted and needs a housecleaning. You are one of the good ones, and since you are no longer seeking re-election, you have an opportunity to do your party and your country a service by speaking out for what is right."

I'm telling you, IF YOU GET THIS CONCEPT AND APPLY IT, YOU'LL NEVER AGAIN ASK, "Why does the Bush Team DO that?!"
Okay. Here are three Bush-Team-induced situations liberal folks are ALWAYS addressing with confusion and lack of understanding:

1. The Bush Team dismisses, defames and undercuts REAL military heroes.

2. The Bush Team smears/attempts character assassination of opponents, fires whistleblowers, conducts firing/dismissal campaigns against professors/teachers, newsanchors, entertainers, and so on.

3. The Bush Team stonewalls, obfuscates, causes chaos, classifies information so the public is blinded by thick layer of secrecy (and this includes media censorship, a form of secrecy).

The sociopath has two adversaries: First folks who are ignorant, gullible, naive, innocent, trusting to a falt, frightened, weak, desperate, stupid, or vulnerable in some other way. These are the easy ones to con, scam.

Second, there are the folks who are smart, streetwise, courageous, informed, intuitve, capable, or strong in other ways. These are the types who can't be conned or scammed so easily or eventually catch on.

Those three Bush-Team-induced situations listed above are for the second group of not easily conned, scammed people. (I think the anthrax scare at the Capitol turned just aout all capable-style folks there were in Congress into "the frightened"-- part of the first category. That made them fall for or at least not block the Iraq War scam. The rest were so few they were dismissed and marginalized as fringe.)

Okay, so now go back and note how the Bush Team responds to those they've scammed. It was verbally evident in Bush's Veteran's Day speech where he defends himself and his staff's pre-war actions and tries to SHIFT THE BLAME TO HIS CRITICS.

Bush sounds like the sociopath he is! Bush uses the twisted 'rationale' of a sociopath: When he said his critics saw the intelligence and made their own decision from it, Bush conveniently failed to mention that his staff tampered with the intelligence to promote their PNAC Imperialism. Bush blamed the victimized Legislators the same way a criminal blames his crime victim:

Criminals love to say that their con/scam/crime victims are so stupid/dense/unstreetwise/naive/weak that they 'fell' for the con/scam -- that is, the victim's 'stupidity, etc.' was the cause of their victimization, not the criminal who perpetrated the crime! (It's like Criminal Bush is saying to Congress, "You fools (victims) made your own bed; now you can just lay in it!" This is a shaming technique that unfortunately many who fell for the scam are susceptible to; these poor 'marks' hate to admit they got taken, that sort of thing. It's a sorry state of frozenness, I'm afraid; and unfortunately, it serves the criminal!)

The criminal has no logical understanding of upstanding personal responsibility and law as constants. The criminal sees responsibility and law as just obstacles to maneuver/manipulate on his course of crime. This is similar in seducers, rapists, and molesters too; these criminals hold the sociopathic viewpoint that if the victims "let" themselves be victimized, that's the victims' fault, so the victims are ultimately responsible! The criminal's anti-social rationale is that the crime arises out of the victim's ignorance/naivete/innocence, not the criminal's actions!

Sociopaths have really twisted logic! And Un-President George W. Bush and Darth Cheney exemplify this in their speech!

Back to the Bush-Team-induced situations, particularly the third where obfuscation, chaos, confusion, stonewalling, and secrecy are the TOOLS of the success of their sociopathic corruption/thievery/perversion (torture). This is the area WE THE CITIZENRY have the most control over, because we can DEMAND THAT THE TRUTH BE MADE PUBLIC in many ways -- especially through the power in our numbers. That's what the sociopath wants to avoid the most -- exposure to the many. Not because they feel shame, but because it is the end of winning the con game for them and then they are just like the weak "loser" they used to victimize.

The only thing this Predator really wants to avoid is being considered prey. They'll do anything not to become prey. It doesn't matter that laws say they've done wrong or are guilty; they don't see themselves as perpetrators of crimes, but when the law is on to them, they see themselves as victimized unfairly!

(That criminals only experience two states of being they bounce between -- being the Predator (aggressor/winner) or the Prey (victim/loser) -- you can understand now why Bush is so big on seeking revenge/retribution; it is a victim's revenge he seeks. It's very different from this leader/loyalty explanation we see most often describing his behavior. If Bush is crossed, even if he only imagines he's been snubbed somehow, his drive to get out of victimhood is immense.)

There was something even more strange than usual in listening to some of the recent defensive speeches this week by Bush and Cheney. I think that came from the juxtaposition of statements that were intended to address both kinds of adversaries at once. For instance, one sentence for the conned "loser" who has fallen for the "fear of terrorists scam", juxtaposed next to a sentence aimed at reputable critics with the intent to portray them as traitors. It was all a jumble, when usually these sociopaths have gone after one adversary at a time, this time they were attempting to con both at once!

Regarding the Murtha current event. I say, don't treat anti-social types like normal human beings. It's a waste of precious time (which they desire to waste!). They are criminal-types, and should e handled accordingly.

I'm telling you, IF YOU GET THIS CONCEPT AND APPLY IT, YOU'LL NEVER AGAIN ASK, "Why does the Bush Team DO that?!"
Okay. Here are three Bush-Team-induced situations liberal folks are ALWAYS addressing with confusion and lack of understanding:

1. The Bush Team dismisses, defames and undercuts REAL military heroes.

2. The Bush Team smears/attempts character assassination of opponents, fires whistleblowers, conducts firing/dismissal campaigns against professors/teachers, newsanchors, entertainers, and so on.

3. The Bush Team stonewalls, obfuscates, causes chaos, classifies information so the public is blinded by thick layer of secrecy (and this includes media censorship, a form of secrecy).

The sociopath has two adversaries: First folks who are ignorant, gullible, naive, innocent, trusting to a falt, frightened, weak, desperate, stupid, or vulnerable in some other way. These are the easy ones to con, scam.

Second, there are the folks who are smart, streetwise, courageous, informed, intuitve, capable, or strong in other ways. These are the types who can't be conned or scammed so easily or eventually catch on.

Those three Bush-Team-induced situations listed above are for the second group of not easily conned, scammed people. (I think the anthrax scare at the Capitol turned just aout all capable-style folks there were in Congress into "the frightened"-- part of the first category. That made them fall for or at least not block the Iraq War scam. The rest were so few they were dismissed and marginalized as fringe.)

Okay, so now go back and note how the Bush Team responds to those they've scammed. It was verbally evident in Bush's Veteran's Day speech where he defends himself and his staff's pre-war actions and tries to SHIFT THE BLAME TO HIS CRITICS.

Bush sounds like the sociopath he is! Bush uses the twisted 'rationale' of a sociopath: When he said his critics saw the intelligence and made their own decision from it, Bush conveniently failed to mention that his staff tampered with the intelligence to promote their PNAC Imperialism. Bush blamed the victimized Legislators the same way a criminal blames his crime victim:

Criminals love to say that their con/scam/crime victims are so stupid/dense/unstreetwise/naive/weak that they 'fell' for the con/scam -- that is, the victim's 'stupidity, etc.' was the cause of their victimization, not the criminal who perpetrated the crime! (It's like Criminal Bush is saying to Congress, "You fools (victims) made your own bed; now you can just lay in it!" This is a shaming technique that unfortunately many who fell for the scam are susceptible to; these poor 'marks' hate to admit they got taken, that sort of thing. It's a sorry state of frozenness, I'm afraid; and unfortunately, it serves the criminal!)

The criminal has no logical understanding of upstanding personal responsibility and law as constants. The criminal sees responsibility and law as just obstacles to maneuver/manipulate on his course of crime. This is similar in seducers, rapists, and molesters too; these criminals hold the sociopathic viewpoint that if the victims "let" themselves be victimized, that's the victims' fault, so the victims are ultimately responsible! The criminal's anti-social rationale is that the crime arises out of the victim's ignorance/naivete/innocence, not the criminal's actions!

Sociopaths have really twisted logic! And Un-President George W. Bush and Darth Cheney exemplify this in their speech!

Back to the Bush-Team-induced situations, particularly the third where obfuscation, chaos, confusion, stonewalling, and secrecy are the TOOLS of the success of their sociopathic corruption/thievery/perversion (torture). This is the area WE THE CITIZENRY have the most control over, because we can DEMAND THAT THE TRUTH BE MADE PUBLIC in many ways -- especially through the power in our numbers. That's what the sociopath wants to avoid the most -- exposure to the many. Not because they feel shame, but because it is the end of winning the con game for them and then they are just like the weak "loser" they used to victimize.

The only thing this Predator really wants to avoid is being considered prey. They'll do anything not to become prey. It doesn't matter that laws say they've done wrong or are guilty; they don't see themselves as perpetrators of crimes, but when the law is on to them, they see themselves as victimized unfairly!

(That criminals only experience two states of being they bounce between -- being the Predator (aggressor/winner) or the Prey (victim/loser) -- you can understand now why Bush is so big on seeking revenge/retribution; it is a victim's revenge he seeks. It's very different from this leader/loyalty explanation we see most often describing his behavior. If Bush is crossed, even if he only imagines he's been snubbed somehow, his drive to get out of victimhood is immense.)

There was something even more strange than usual in listening to some of the recent defensive speeches this week by Bush and Cheney. I think that came from the juxtaposition of statements that were intended to address both kinds of adversaries at once. For instance, one sentence for the conned "loser" who has fallen for the "fear of terrorists scam", juxtaposed next to a sentence aimed at reputable critics with the intent to portray them as traitors. It was all a jumble, when usually these sociopaths have gone after one adversary at a time, this time they were attempting to con both at once!

Regarding the Murtha current event. I say, don't treat anti-social types like normal human beings. It's a waste of precious time (which they desire to waste!). They are criminal-types, and should be handled accordingly.

So sorry, don't understand how multiple posts happened. Please forgive! (Embarrassing!)

responding to Chicago's post at 9:49
"“It’s a trap,” explained a Democratic strategist. “If the party comes out ...

Oh yes, it's a trap - and it's a trap well sprung! Murtha baited the Roveistas and they took the bait. They reacted with their canned viciousness without considering who the target was. They got away with it in Georgia, calling a highly-decorated disabled vet a coward and driving him out of office, and the dems knew they couldn't resist trying it again. They have egg on their faces, and now the backlash will kill them. Let's fan the flames! The dems don't need to push Muthas proposal so much as to expose the reps for the nature of their response. Kick them when they are down, drive the poll numbers into the teens, and THEY will renounce Bush and support some variant of Murtha's plan.

As I watched this Republican grandstanding, two things became perfectly clear that was not clear before:

1. If we stay the course, there will be a DRAFT.

2. The regressives think that there is a finite number of terrorists. THAT IS JUST PLAIN STUPID!

Actually pee-wee there IS a finite number of terrorists - its just that it is a really BIG number, and it replenishes itself, grows faster than we can kill them them.

But you are absolutely correct - the naive idea that we can ferret out every last one of them and then things will be alright is absurd.

"Stay the course" and "as long as it takes" are such hollow, mindless, pigheaded slogans, with no plan for success, and OUR KIDS ARE DYING EVERY DAY while they keep babbling that stuff.

We kill one terrorist and one civilian and create two new terrorists.

THAT IS NOT A FINITE NUMBER!

I am really proud to be a Democrat tonight, are you all? So many of us who have a friend or a family member or who just plain give a damn about our presence and our troops in Iraq have been rallying for a voice to speak up loud and clear and now we got it!! Rep. Murtha is extraordinary for his courage to address and call for an immediate Iraq withdrawl. I thank you Rep. Murtha! The sheer idiocy and mean spiritedness, and just plain CRAZINESS, of Bush and the Republicans who have NO plan, never HAD a plan, but continue to reiterate the false hope of "stay the course" along with GOP Rep. Jean Schmidt of Ohio calling Rep. Murtha a coward just shows the complete desperation of the republicans who use Iraq solely as a political tool. I hope the Dems continue to discuss Iraq, our troops, and immediate withdrawl which the American people support starting within the next six months. Indeed, the majority of the American people are on the same page with this sentiment so let's run with it Dems! To the troops and my friend serving, we love you and want you home and honor your efforts! By the way there are some wonderful posts over at Dailykos.com on Murtha and tonight's GOP shameful House vote debacle.

People do not like to be ripped off. This is the approach Democrats must use to their advantage for '06 and '08. We need to send the message to swing voters that "Your government is devaluing and taking away your money, your voice, and the lives of your country's defenders. Where is your outrage?"

I consider myself a centrist Democrat, and I am revolted by the complacency with which people are treating this administration's failures.

Remember when the country's greatest concern was whether or not oral sex constitutes sex? Where are the motions to have this president impeached?!

Dear Congresswoman Schmidt:

As a veteran with 22 years of service and counting, I want to tell you that I think your remarks on the floor of the House yesterday regarding Congressman John Murtha were disgraceful. I could not help but notice the irony in how quickly you retreated (or should I say “cut and run”) from your own words, recanting them and claiming that your comments were not directed at any particular House member. Your message, however, was abundantly clear.

It is sickening to me that you, who never served a single day in the uniform of this country, would have the audacity to stand up on the floor of the House of Representatives and smear the courage and integrity of a man with Colonel Murtha’s record of service. You have shown us all that you are nothing more than another opportunistic, hypocritical politician who wraps herself in the flag and thumps her chest about honoring and supporting veterans. Then, when they become politically inconvenient, you are the first to throw them under the bus.

You shamed yourself, you shamed your party, you shamed the House of Representatives and you shamed this country.

I hope you enjoy your time in Congress, Ms. Schmidt, because I expect it will be brief.

Sincerely,
Kevin in Tallahassee

I wish John Murtha were president. He said it all. He was honest, sincere, and courageous. This democrat is 100% behind him.

Shame on you Congressman John Murtha for demanding that our military leave Iraq. You were once an honorable active duty Marine and now you're a digusting COWARD!

I just read where the vote was 403-3? Our party is a joke. How many Democrats were in the 403? Who were the 3....Pelosi, Kennedy & ?. Also, I can't believe John Murtha voted to stay the course. We can spin this anyway we want, but, the truth is we got slammed infront of the enrtire world!

The maharishi mahesh yogi movement which ran america in the 60s, supports every known form of terrorism there is.
You will find that they enjoy being the mastermind "terrorists" of all time.
At a diferent level. Maharishi will tell you who killed some teenager here. But They enjoy being masterminds of every form of known terrorism.
Conclusion?
I was once a hukan being and thougth as a hukan being. Someone wanted to take a patental role. Many years later they have even stolen a video I made of me and my mother.
I had "argued," But I have parents, so how can you take a parental role?
Answer: we'll kill your parents and take their role.
Hit a "hot button" like Paramahansa Yogananda, or lesbianism and they will kill everyone to put that view togather.
Why?
Con men.
What is a con man?
There is nothing in their "media" world view. Their philosophy is the opposite to what JP 11 said was "human." They want someone to live that life and they don't believe it is inhuman. PLus, lots of their people are real estate dealers.

I think Nora's post should be put on the front page of this site, and every newspaper in America. Thank you.

Thank you democrats for showing you true self. You have sold out the solders in Iraq and now a retired U.S. Marine in Murtha. At least you are consistant. He was pushed to speak up as one with military credability and given a no confdence vote of 403 to 3. You sent him out and sold him out...sound familiar. I guess the elected officials were thinking about votes instead of guts.

I found this post in Daily Kos:

On Countdown tonight, Newsweek's Howard Fineman was tapped with commenting on the Republican attack on Murtha, which has now devolved into Republicans asserting they will launch an ethics probe of Murtha in explicit retaliation for his stance on the Iraq War. Fineman is a frequent guest on the program, an expert commentator, a solid reporter, and usually meets the challenge with the same plays of detached though good-natured bemusement that most reporters choose for such occasions. Punditry has to be light, it seems, to make up for the subject matter.

But this time around, on the heels of a report on the Iraq War debate in the House, Fineman was somewhere between somber and simmering, from the first moment of the interview to the last. Professional, yes, but the raw darkness of the mood was striking.

***

If the Repubs follow through with attacks on Murtha's ethics, we must fight back! I am fed up with the Republicans that stop at nothing just to pump the idiot President up. It's the Republicans that are politicizing this war. They have been from the outset.

Thank you democrats for showing you true self. You have sold out the solders in Iraq and now a retired U.S. Marine in Murtha. At least you are consistant. He was pushed to speak up as one with military credability and given a no confdence vote of 403 to 3. You sent him out and sold him out...sound familiar. I guess the elected officials were thinking about votes instead of guts.

***

Excuse me but that was a vote on Duncan Hunter's warped amendment. It most certainly was not a vote on Murtha's resolution. Duncan Hunter cycnically changed what Murtha proposed to make it sound like a disorderly withdrawal.

I am sure this was all a plan by the Republicans to try to make the Democrats look irresponsible.
It didn't work. Murtha was well supported last night and in fact HE URGED the defeat of the Duncan Hunter amendment.

What Murtha proposed is a re-deployment over the course of the next 6 months while control is passed to Iraqi forces. American forces would be slimmed down. A quick strike force, probably Marines, would stay in or around Iraq in case of a major problem. It's an idea worthy of honest debate. That is exactly what the Republicans refused to do last night. That is why Duncan Hunter's rubbish deserved to be defeated - in fact, Hunter voted against his own amendment! You tell me that isn't cynical blatant politics.

This is a new low for the Republican party. Americans have lost all faith in them and Bush to solve our probles. There is only one choice kick you Republicans out in 2006!

My message to Murtha? Thank you, and good job Marine!

My message to the democrats who turned thier back on him because they are afraid of the political fallout...

Get out. Get out, step down, walk away if you cannot represent the American people, the majority of whom want us out of Iraq. How could you? How could you give this man a standing ovation when it was just Democrats in the room, then vote no on his resolution? How could you, Nancy Pelosi, say ""Mr. Murtha speaks for himself."

Of course, shame on Ms. Schmidt for calling this highly decorated veteran a coward. But after all I have come to expect that from Republican chickenhawks.

The greater shame lies on the shoulders of all the Democrats who voted "no".

We will leave Iraq eventually, we truly have done all we can. It could be orderly as Mr. Murtha envisioned, or it could be chaotic and disordely, like our withdrawal from Vietnam. We had a choice yesterday, and history will judge the 403 who voted no very harshly.

The blood of all those who will die from this point forward is on your hands, despicable and cowardly 403.

madonna,

obviously you are not informed on what Really went on in the House. The Vote was Not on Murtha's recommendation, which was "a smooth withdrawal at the earliest practical date". He also called for establishment of a 'quick reaction force and nearby presence of marines in the area'.

The Republican's, under a proposal of Rep. Hunter, put out one calling for Immediate Withdrawal, defining it as Cut and Run! Made to make Murtha and the Democrats who voted for it look bad!

It was a farce, thus Murtha voted against it, as did all the Democrats except for a couple trying to make a point.

I just read where the vote was 403-3? Our party is a joke. How many Democrats were in the 403? Who were the 3....Pelosi, Kennedy & ?. Also, I can't believe John Murtha voted to stay the course. We can spin this anyway we want, but, the truth is we got slammed infront of the enrtire world!

***

You people are drinking the Republican cool aid. This is exactly what they want to drive a wedge in the Democratic supporters.

Get this clear. What was debated last night was NOT Murtha's resolution. It was a cynical irresponsible resolution put out by Duncan Hunter to immediately withdraw all troops. He knows darn well that no one including Murtha ever asked for that. Murtha proposed a phased transfer of control to Iraqi. It will occur over a course of 6 months. There still will be a small strike force in or around Iraq. That is not what Duncan Hunter's resolution said so of course we all voted against it.

Let's have an honest debate on Iraq. No more Republican stay the course crap. No irresponsible let's pull everyone out tonight stuff either as Duncan Hunter proposed. We need a reasonable plan to extricate ourselves from this quagmire.

The sooner we leave Iraq, the more American, British, and Iraqi lives will be spared. Period!
***

I agree! We need a real plan to withdraw. Duncan Hunter did not propose a real plan. There was no debate on a real solution. Last night was a political show concocting by the GOP. They ended up looking quite stupid. I am sick of their stay the course rubbish. What course? What defines success? The GOP refuses to answer that question.

Murtha is 100% right. Now, when we will have a real debate on HIS RESOLUTION because that certainly didn't happen last night. It was mainly Republican hyperbole and nonsense.

I am a conservative not a republican for a few reasons. The difference includes independent thought from party lines. I recently read the book "Do as I say (not as I do) profiles in liberal hypocrisy". If you want to save your dollar vote, read it in a public library. I have no problem reading about a republican version of hypocrisy.... but this book made me sick. What happened to our representative’s beliefs and values in this country?

Democratic Party Infested by DLC Republicans

If DLC Leadership did not want to support the Republican Re-WRITE of Congressman John Murtha's plan to "Bring Our Troops Home", DLC Leadership should have submitted their own proposal for the Democratic Party. To their lasting shame, the DLC Leadership of the Democratic Party did not do so and once more chose to cooperate with and support the agenda of the Conservative Right-Wing Republican EXTREMISTS.

A few brave Democrats that represent the people stood up with Congressman John Murtha of Pennsylvania last night and represented the Will of the People and the Will of U.S. Military Forces in Iraq, who are fighting an illegitimate and unnecessary War of Imperial Aggression for the economic benefit and interests of Conservative Right Wing Republican Extremists.

On November 18, 2005, the Majority Will of the People of the United States was voiced by Congressman Murtha that the United States change its course and withdraw from Iraq. The Republican Wing of the Democratic Party, DLC Democrats, as always, supported the Republican Party in a shameful betrayal of the American people, and refused to represent the interests and Will of the Majority Population, contrary to the Will of the Conservative Right Wing Republican Party EXTREMISTS that have lied and deceived their way into infestation of the Government of the United States.

The vote not to support changing the course of the Conservative Right Wing Republican EXTREMISTS, and sensibly withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, was one more cowardly betrayal of the American people in a long list of "Borrow and Spend" "transfer of wealth betrayals" of the American people by DLC Representation and Leadership of the Democratic Party that is representative of Conservative Right Wing Republican Party interests, rather than the grassroots majority population of the American people who are crying out for representation to the Democratic Party to be heard, and are being betrayed rather than being served by DLC representation and leadership.

The sense of the House of Representatives vote of DLC Democrats to betray the American people, and not to support withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq as is desired by the grass roots Majority population of the United States is one more reason why grass roots replacement of DLC representaion and leadership by Democracy for America, the DFA Wing of the Democratic Party is so urgently necessary.

We must have a strong and united Democratic Party that represents the grass roots majority population of the United States, rather than the self serving DLC Democrats that are currently representing the imperialistic interests of Conservative Right-Wing Republican EXTREMISTS, who currently infest all levels of the Government of the United States, and occupy the White House.

We the majority, the "Working and Poor Class of the United States" must reform the Democratic Party, and rid ourselves of the DLC infestation that currently infests and afflicts the Democratic Party, so that our voice will be heard in the Government of the United States. Until we do so, and replace DLC leadership and representation in the Democratic Party with DFA representation and leadership from the grass roots of the "Working and Poor Class", the majority population of the United States, our voice, the Voice of the People, will not be heard in the House of Representatives, the Senate and government as a whole of the United States.

SUPPORT DFA grass roots representation and leadership of the Democratic Party. It is time for a change.

We the people of the United States are not in a win or lose battle where we can afford to accept the sense of the House of Representatives loss on November 18, 2005. We are in a War to Change the Representation and Leadership of the Democratic Party to grass roots DFA representation and leadership, a movement to provide representation and leadershiup of the "Working and Poor Class" in the Democratic Party and the Government of the United States. We must support this movement and our leader Governor Howard Dean and as we acquire strength through the growth of DFA representation and leadership, we will affect change.

It's time for a change.

The vote not to support changing the course of the Conservative Right Wing Republican EXTREMISTS, and sensibly withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, was one more cowardly betrayal of the American people in a long list of "Borrow and Spend" "transfer of wealth betrayals" of the American people by DLC Representation and Leadership of the Democratic Party that is representative of Conservative Right Wing Republican Party interests, rather than the grassroots majority population of the American people who are crying out for representation to the Democratic Party to be heard, and are being betrayed rather than being served by DLC representation and leadership.

***

The problem with what you are saying is that there was no vote to sensibly withdraw. The way Duncan Hunter framed it sounded like a withdrawal throwing all caution to the wind.

There was no honest debate on Murtha's resolution and Duncan Hunter's garbage deserved a NO vote.

The Repubs did this just to grandstand and demoralize the grassroots. Don't let them get away with that.

We need an honest debate on a plan to get out of Iraq. I am still waiting for that!!!

What happened to our representative’s beliefs and values in this country?
***

You mean the Republicans that voted for budget cuts that effect the poor so that they can give tax cuts to the rich. Yep, I wonder what has happened to Republican conservative values. They have no compassion in them at all. For all of his faults, at least Nixon recognized the importance of helping the poor.

Where are the motions to have this president impeached?!
***

So far just grassroots ...

This Republican dominated Congress will never entertain impeachment. We can't even get an honest debate on the Downing Street Memos and the Plame leak pass the Republicans.

Of course, shame on Ms. Schmidt for calling this highly decorated veteran a coward. But after all I have come to expect that from Republican chickenhawks.

***

That was disgraceful. Pity that Paul Hackett didn't win because Jean Schmidt is awful. At least, she had to eat her words and apologize.

cnn question for e-mail responses what is the meaning of the rejection of the immediate pullout by Congress? I argue that it was another set up vote like the one that took us to war. Add your voice.

It's not unusual to see these tactics used, for this administration to get what they want, peddling half truths. After all they have had a lot of practice in maligning those in opposition: I recall Senator McCain, Max Clelland, Senator Kerry, Cindy Sheehan, and now Rep. Murtha, (Not to mention Joseph Wilson) all being treated to the Republican smear machine. It isn't a lack of support to attempt to have a discussion about troop withdrawal from Iraq; it has to happen at some point. All anyone who is speaking out wants is an idea of when and how this will happen. That's what you do in a Democracy, offer responsible explanations to the people; not behave as a bully, beating the country over the head with fear tactics and insults to patriotism...."Our doubts are traitors And make us lose the good we oft might win By fearing to attempt". (William Shakespere).

Robin Vaughan
Mother of a U.S. Soldier

rjsjn, I have voted for Duncan Hunter and will again. As a representative from San Diego he is one of the best in California. The talk about withdrawal by the Democrats is done for few reasons, with the cost paid by our soldiers in harms way. Murtha’s statement was a political move by the DNC to make withdrawal sound like a democrat idea when everyone knows the definition of victory. For victory, the withdrawal will occur when the Iraqi government is voted in and the Iraqi soldiers are in place to protect the new government. I think it was sad for the Democrats to use Murtha in an attempt to steal failure from the jaws of victory (and peace in the region). It is time to think of the country before your hatred of G. Bush.

You mean the Republicans that voted for budget cuts that effect the poor so that they can give tax cuts to the rich. Yep, I wonder what has happened to Republican conservative values. They have no compassion in them at all. For all of his faults, at least Nixon recognized the importance of helping the poor.

****

In response, assuming the across board tax cuts were not taken around the year 2000 (as a result of a busted financial market). What if a recession as most financial and economic experts agree would have occurred. The rich would have hurt and the poor would have hurt much worse. Would you have gone with the Carter or Hoover policy? What is your level of compassion for the poor? Food stamps and eternal servitude to the government or step up programs to financial independence. San Diego has one of the best programs run by Father Joe of St. Vincent de Paul in the country (I have volunteered have you?).

Our government needs more people like Congressman Murtha working to protect our interests. Stay strong against the right-wing's propoganda!

I'm truly waiting for the Democratic Party to stop criticizing President Bush's programs. I want substance from the Democratic Party. When the Democratic Party is opposed to President Bush's programs, rather than complain about it, I want to hear their solution; I want to hear how they will 'FIX' the problem(s).

My voter registration card party affiliation used to read 'Democrat' now it reads 'No Party Preference' and I'm looking for a valid reason to vote for and switch back to the Democratic Party.

Please don't tell me the Republican party has screwed up America, instead, tell me (give me particulars) 'HOW' the Democratic Party is going to 'Fix' America.

Finally--finally!--I hope Bush is being brought to task for at least one of his poor policy decisions.... we have watched him get away with his self-serving ramrodding at our expense far too long.

Perhaps Dubya and Laura could demonstrate their commitment to the Iraqi "cause" by sending their daughters over to join the fight.

Dear Congresswoman Schmidt,

With all due respect, shame on you for your attack on Congressman Murtha. I for one expect more integrity from an elected official, regardless of political perspective. If I was an Ohio resident you would not have my vote.

Congressman Murtha,
Your rights to your ideas, opinion, and speech is one of the most basic amendments in the Bill of Rights. Without at least that, the first ten amendments of our enlightened founding fathers, there is no America worth fighting for....
Every generation of my family on my father's side have served and sacrificed for the above and for the respect and civility that goes on in both congress and parlimentary debate. Sometimes it gets feisty and spicy....but what I tuned into on the news today...some shreiking crazy amazon woman stirring up a fight was disdainful and a disgrace... and very ugly to see - so this is your perfect Republican woman when the fixed smile gets torn away. She should be dismissed if she cannot at least be polite and eloquent in debate on the floor, what she was yelling in her out of control emoting shows all in each party with any education that she is made of the same stuff the harem dancer that calls for John the Baptist's head is made of. Why am I seeing that last scene of Platoon right now in my head? Why are all the poor folks of New Orleans still waiting for help, where is all the stuff they should have? Why are there trucks of ice driving all over the US? Why are they cutting out the basic social services this cold winter, student loans and even FOOD STAMPS for the poor children and mothers? What IS the Plan here. Where IS the big reward, the victory, the big win for the American People, what has been created, contructed...after all of this expense? WE the PEOPLE are your boss...WE are not getting any answers from those in power handling all that money that say WE do not have any plans? WE the People notice that you have never mentioned a history book that has a long list of achievements from those before....plans that worked and sensible defense, things like The Monroe Doctrine....The Declaration of Independence...
Let us not fall into this trap...fighting each other...They want divide and conquer. Let us channel our energies for the good of the whole for we are really only as good as our weakest link as New Orleans and Mother Earth has shown us, and another hurricane still coming???? We, the People can change by staying cool, helping each other and voting with some peoplepower and truth to balance and check our congress, the legislative, judicial and executive branches of our government again so that the brilliant mechanism of the philosopy of the enlightemment can work properly, fairly and decently again. folks, We can not afford the thing We have now that embarrasses us as if it were some tragic soap opera and not true sensible congressional business on the day's agenda in D.C.! We can make change peacefully successfully and calmly by joining in on the 55 state plan and for Ohio, by looking up the 88 county plan at the DNC site www.democrats.org. We have real free speech! We are inclusive of all Americans equally grassroots up!
When the Nazi officials were tried they all said the same thing, "I had to follow orders". It is time to change some of the members in the higher rank and it took a very courageous - nearly self sacrificial move to come out like Patrick Henry and the forefathers to strongly speak your sensible conscience, Congressman Murtha. You were speaking to an issue in particular that you know much about, your comments and concerns were needed to be heard by the People for their own interests and survival.
The People of the United States of America applaud you for exercising your democratic rights as a true civil servant of the People that you love and care about. Because you know this, you are precious to all of us as a living thinking man and because you have been there, on the front lines, you have seen what we all had to witness, summed up in movies like "Platoon" and documentaries like "Hearts and Minds".
Never, have we taken a pre-emptive unilateral action commanded from above. Now, as so many had feared, we can see that this bad strategy of forcing a nation into a war and shouting down desperate and even tearful pleas for restraint and further time (Hans Blix of Sweden, U.N. former head, who has always been a great defender of Western Civilizaton) was a careless jumping into a trap and I imagine that both Eisenhower and Patton would be rolling in their graves over this frequently absentee reservist walking right into the "Charge of the Light Brigade" (English poem by Alfred Lord Tennyson, Romantic/Victorian era)...did this President ever study strategy or past Muslim encounters or culture and religion, not know history or literature or philosophy or law, orlook up what our English allies already knew???, Did he ever ask for advice from European heads of power? It is hard to believe for all sides here that we have a captain with very good pedigree credentials, but such questionable qualifications and experience to put to wise and swift action in the People's times of need and defense, let alone handle the moneys of The People and maintain a growing healthy budget with a reduced deficit. Surely we have more than enough results to prove that he was not an enlightened being not long after taking office. (Example for folks who have forgotten: Foreign relations incident with the plane that went down off China coast...took him a few days atleast then to apologize to China leadership...etc..on it goes....No the record is not good.)
We must be united now as Americans. This is an American problem now. Safety and Health go past politics or rationalizing...it is time for a change of staff and policies, strategies based on bias and fundamentalist myths - that have already failed in our history...do not have a place on any floor or in any seat of the Executive, Judicial, or Congressional houses.
You, Congressman Murtha, have a right to your suggestions and sensible words of strength and conviction stemming realistically from your life experience and expertise, real expertise. It was time a real American Republican stood up, for we have been lost, I am afraid since Ike. I blame Nixon the Nixer for the debacle of your party and I hope that more light comes out of the fifties and what happened because I was betrayed by those close to me when I did the same thing as you long ago and took a stand in my teens on civil rights. Many of us have and it would be so nice to hear more about the outcasts of the disowning families of the right wing rich in the fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties.
One of this type told me she was a horsewoman, I started talking to her about mucking out...she didn't know what the word even meant and had the patience for training for about two weeks fit for a stuffed animal on her pretty pillow. Her pretty fingernails had never so much as touched sawdust let alone horse droppings...
America needs to get clever fast. Putting ideas out on the table for our understanding helps us to see the problems, although the truth can be hard to take. In knowing the diagnosis, like a doctor, we can create the solutions in trust working together to fix it, the way it should be and the way America was set up to be.
We have always tried to Shine the light of the lady that we all know, for that is reason and we have always been respected as a people for it by the world and it has been the one truth that has allowed us to believe in ourselves for the last two plus centuries as The United States of America.
The truth will set us free and bring civilization back, one cannot have any kind of democracy without peaceful civilization and that is not what is existant in Iraq at this time because mass murder for greed is not civilized, bombing a museum full of cuniform artifacts and famous throughout the world is stupidity and very bad ignorant strategy, bad taste and embarrasing to Americans who are diplomats and humanitarians not to mention scholars and archaeologists...and as the brilliant rays of light coming down from Gabriel the messenger with his trumpet who enlightens has shown so naturally again, a moment of truth has exposed the pointy fingered hate-mongering woman yelling on my TV. I can only wonder at what some of our seniors like Senator Byrd must be thinking now!!!
There have been too many errors, the masters of the temple have abused their wealth and power with this country. The White House is filled with something other than civil servants with the true interests of All of The People of the United States as motives for filling those posts even if they were trusted and voted on, their actions have taken a toll on, threatened and frightened, and further impoverished the People, and it is getting worse as we have just witnessed on the floor - they cannot even debate in respect for the public legitimate views of one of their own the minute he dares to stand up and exercise his original thoughts in open dialogue from his rightful seat...yes - rebuttal is okay, but really, that meanhearted cruelty was out of control and that woman should be removed from office for her disgraceful behavior...it reveals that she is not trained or educated about how to even debate let alone how to manage her seat, but what is worse is what was revealed resting in her true soul and that is sad..because it came from being abused in childhood and pain. That kind of autistic cruelty comes from what Psychologist Eric Fromm discusses in his bood on Hitler's pathological mental state called "The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness". It is a classic text in the field for many years now. Today's doctors know how such socially ingrained problems occur thank goodness, and there are many areas of post traumatic shock, or as they called it shell shock are now understood. Unfortunately my father died of shell shock related depression after returning from Guadal Canal with an honorable medical discharge for elephantitus of the foot and leg...The People are not voicing a protest against the defense of this country in disloyalty, how do you do that born here fifth generation down, it is not even a possible thing to do, we are born of this earth here on this land of this culture....many are new and adjusting to life here but all treasure their lives...What is being questioned is all the mis management and the ethical principles at the premise of your methods in this administration, the administration is simply not administrating with the understanding and expertise as so many bungles have hurt the people who trust in and give power to the administration are finding out and they are getting worried about their safety and not trusting the administration which means that their reps must be doing something before the laws break down...they must get it together to keep government accountatble, and believable and successful to the People or change those who do not fit the positions if the People want this and make it known in the majority.
In any organization, an outburst like that woman, Schmidt, especially in a proper ettiquette situation of elites, would create an instant dismissal by one's boss because she has failed at her post and embarrassed, revealed lack of control and weakness, lost composure, and shamed her whole company.
No boss that I know of would have ever cut me a break for that kind of behavior in the workplace, especially any big company. There is too much of this yelling going on lately by other meanhearted nonsensical Republicans and it reveals that the leaders are not leading with the head, heart and action to follow through constructively, or with the proper amount of knowledge to be truly graceful and get results efficiently - it is as if they are doing everything rote, not getting it, not flowing with the understanding of why they are doing what they are doing, just duty or going through the motions because that is what is expected of them but not being original thinkers with it... therefore, they are not getting or with the credibility of the People or having a quality of expertise in their candidates to actually be able tostand up to the job that they were approved of by voters after the party introduced them to run as civil servants of the People. This is a problem of the whole Republican Party Philosopy...it simply follows orders and does duty as memorized or learned - motive, the trained in need to get ahead of others...up that hill and that's it. What is saddest is that they are not liked by this world very much due to these problems of fear, competition, falsely being a secondary bundle of memorized knee jerk proper ways just because you are supposed to stay in line and trust in the leader...don't talk back or you'll get a spanking...just do what I say mentality...this is what they have within torturing themselves, and it results in the class distinction which is growing, the attitudes and all the rest that we are seeing.
What we are seeing is the world, the actual reality that they are fashioning by their beliefs, feelings, and actions.... For this and so many other reasons, Murtha has finally been unable to stand the incompetence. He sees the train with no brakes and knows where it will end up...he has some valid points that must be taken seriously as constructive protective criticism to save his fellows..surely he has already been trying to challenge some of the wrong principles and practices behind the Republican doors but not been heeded and why has he done this - for what purpose? For the true defense of this country. What other motive would he have...are we so untrusting and jaded on all sides that it takes months to figure this out as more disasters befall us...or diseases ???
There are Platoons, it seems, from cooking the books to intimidation in the ranks, to just bad intelligence...(dah, you did not let original thinkers who had studied for years into those positions - just blind followers who had not really passed the tests or earned honestly the degrees), and they also were good at cover ups, blindly loyal - the cults and brainwashed...
What more incompetence can continue as proof that some civil servants have already proven that they need to be empeached and step down so that someone fit for the job which will not be easy by any means can take over...now that the damage is done and its so late...how much more suffering and pain do we have to watch violently and desperately spin out on our own streets...it is time to awaken and take responsibility to stop a repeat of the vicious cycle that has plagued us for the last fifty years...but they deserve those tax cuts because of what...nearly ending this world with wars and again more wars after the war to end all wars??? I think the greatest generation needs to retire and stop breaking promises to it's children and stop sacrificing its grandchildren. They need to level it out a little ethically and share, open some gates for the new technologies, manage life and resources fairly, pay fair wages, actually find ways to support the infrastructure of our cities small business, get off the cheating and monopolizing and make the country work for real success and survival into the future.
How on earth can someone like Congressman Murtha respect a president who, when asked what he would like his posterity to remember him best by, would first not understand the words, then answer with "Oh well, that won't matter, we'll all be dead anyway". Yes, that also was on a televised interview a couple years ago...and many viewers caught it.
Murtha is not saying anything different than what Patton or Ike would say, in fact it is a fact that you can look up...Eisenhower and Einstein agreed on one major conviction after WW2...that humanity did not have the self control, knowledge or wisdom to play with the big matches of atom bombs and this was their greatest concern. Both worked along with many admirals and generals in efforts toward keeping world peace, education, treaties and the reduction and removal of nuclear weapons because it was apparent that human nature was capable of autism, alienation and genocide - and that peace and the motives and ethical reasons for it would be the test of times to come, for their posterity, as it is written in the words of our founding fathers...it is one of our duties to consider the future of our children and our children's children and that would be in their preservation and wealth... is this not the case??? This does not in any way stem from the primitive immature selfish urge to get your own way or to get even, or to fill some definition of a great title on an ego trip, or being a pointing fingered bossy person, or to be a robot goose stepping idiot ending the world without questioning a superiorlest he get punished if he has a valid cricicism or alternate plan that could save lives - he has the right to be heard.
Under President Clinton, if you will recall, we went to Eastern Europe with the consent of the United Nations and NATO as a participating force for order and peace to stop a genocide....no soldiers were killed because it was an intelligent giving action - a caring motive of defending the people against tyrany and prejudice, not for selfish aims. Again, the light of truth is in what we see today...it is time for some accountability NOW. Our reasons for going there and remaining past our welcome are not acceptable to our own citizenry or to the international citizenry. Our soldiers are not able to help and are not credible to the citizenry of that country. We are asked to go home constantly. We need to face the truth and allow the international peacekeeping forces to shift on. We have done more than our part and there is nothing wrong with getting in some new ideas that are perhaps better for the future of America.
We do not want any more Platoons in America. Too many mothers and fathers have now lost their beautiful living children to violence both here and there. This is beginning to sound like a repeat of the sacrifice of Viet Nam. Are our wars like those ancient pyramids, is it really like Lord of the Flies? Are we really just a suicidal species?
Good American People Stand up now whatever your party, it is time for all good sensible men and women to come to the aid of their country. There is still time. The truth of goodness is in ethical enlightened action of each, each and every living day to help and defend human interests, to heal, not to destroy. Death is the final failure for every human, every life, every nation. The duty of every American Citizen is to protect Americans, military or otherwise..even The Soviet Union Military would not raise its arms to its own citizenry. Is that not what we are complaining to China about recently, that thing they did in the square to their students? Did we have any right to demand that of them after our own Kent State? Our honor and credibility is gone and so....
Thank you fellow father Marine Murtha. You were one of the few credible voices on the floor and it was good to hear your wise words of experience. Now this Schmidt woman can just go to bootcamp if she wants to put her actions where her mouth is...she may be good front line material. Then we may believe her. Same goes for that reservist that was absent so much a few years back. Meanwhile golf and cruises for them while the future of our children is at stake...
On it goes, the cannon fodder grows in their garden while they take property and liberty away with an abuse of the priveledge to control and cook the books. This "official woman" or whatever she is can take her fricking emminent domain issues right straight to the front lines with all her fellow private pirate offshore ex patriot entrepreneurs, but she does not fool any of us here any longer,
WE THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF OHIO do now demand the dismissal of Congresswoman Schmidt as a representative for the district she is from in the state of Ohio, she has embarrased the state like the governor in unacceptable acts and disgraceful, hateful behavior on the public floor as proven in front of the entire nation on camera, and not surprisingly made an ass of herself with her pointy Ohio bubble headed bias that warps amendments and government laws like "Emminent Domain" into Nazi like take overs of private property contributed for charity, acquired by campaigns and grants out of the People's taxes and funds,earned and paid for by citizens of The United States of America. Simply put, she is not doing a good job at all and We have decided to let her go back home.
So Yeeeeehaaaaaw! Someone like Patrick Henry said it. A joyful outcry is better and healthier than a furrowed brow and mean scowl. There are many Patrick Henry's and one here just had his birthday!!! See what I mean Doctor Governor Dean?
Carry on..with love and respect for those who contribute real caring ideas -
You, Representative Murtha have shown us that you do really care and your brave contribution is priceless, The American People can see this, thanks to you having the courage to speak out and make a stand once and for all. Now others will be able to come forward more easily. You have done your part and well done sir.
Many thanks, many many thanks and blessings coming your way good man....of the People of This United States of America. Even if we had been somehow "trapped" it would not matter, we already may be - in Iraq and that's the point as I see it and I am so thankful I have a right to my thoughts and words as an American. We can do better and save lives, now that is a real motive for the military...to save lives, not persecute poor folks...it could be someone in your own family. Remember Salem and defamation of character? We could so easily do that to Schmidt but we won't fall in to that trap due to having already learned the lession about labeling.
Sorry this is long but it had to be addessed. Get the goo and the boo out of the closet and dust it off in the light of day. Wash the laundry and chill out...play some mellow music and do some relaxing things and enjoy your day! I love being alive like all Americans...isn't it nice to celebrate a cultured life and beautiful countryside? On my way....
Love, M

A letter I'm sending to everyone on my Democrat Email list. Pass this on....

Last night on the House floor, while the republicans were using republican terrorism against the democrats, Congresswomen Jean Schmidt from Ohio took the floor and called Congressman John Murtha a coward. This man wore the uniform of this country during the Korean War and the Vietnam War.

Under House rules, a congressperson can not personally attack another member. Unfortunately, she didn't play by the rules and called Congressman Murtha a coward.

Please take the time and write to Ms. Schmidt to voice your disgust at her and her republican policy of attack politics.

Her email address is: www.house.gov/schmidt

** Please pass this on to as many people as you can. Thank you.

The prosecuter for the trials on Hitlers gang said: The ones being charged with war crimes said, Hitler, many high officials, and people of Germany feared the Jews and Gypseys would aquaire all the money and take over the World. That they had a right to defend themselves of an eminent danger. They gave several prominent peoples oppenion as being the same.

This was when the Governments in the UN decided we could never attack a group or another Nation out of fear they might attack us. The International Law on War Crimes determined that without this Rule of Law any group or Nation could go amuck. So it is against the law to say we(USA) don't need a permission slip to go to war? WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE IN OUR NATION KNOW THIS? CAN THE USA REALLY BE CHARGED WITH WAR CRIMES BECAUSE OF W. AND HIS CRONIES?

Thank you Congressman Murtha,

Patriotism is not the property of a lone political-party. It belongs to everyone who honors and loves their country. Unfortunately, patriotism is oftentimes exploited by governments in order to silence its critics; thus compelling earnest patriots to brave the consequences of speaking-out against their government’s actions. Partisan patriotism is a dangerous phenomenon; it broadens the divisions between political parties and strains the seams of an indivisible nation.

It is disgraceful how the Bush Administration and the Republicans are disrespecting a man who honorably served his country through military service and now through public service as a Congressman.

Dirty tricks and character assasination of their ooponents has been the modus operandi of the Republican Party and especially George W. Bush throughout his political life.

We all know that politics is a messy business. However, Bush and Cheney have brought the business to an all time low and are fast erroding any respect that may still exist for US politicians.

They have created a huge chasm in congress between the two parties. In the past there was civility during times of disagreement and the parties would eventually work things through.

Presently there is no compromise between the two parties and I place the cause of this squarly on the poisionious effects that the Bush administration has had in Washington.

Keep up the great work. Someone needs to tell the truth and keep this Administration honest.

Watching the debates in the House last night, I had the epiphany that the GOP feels that the ONLY way one can show support for the troops is to sentence them to death needlessly.
I can’t count how many times I heard the phrases ‘stay the course’ or ‘embolden the enemy’ from their side. It leads on to believe that they have simply surrendered free-thinking for the convenience of the repetition of nonsense.
Several GOP members were prone to draw comparisons to Viet Nam. Unfortunately, they can’t tell the difference between apples and oranges. They spoke of how they were in the military and heard Americans back in the states had turned on them. NO ONE has turned on our troops…they have turned on the notion that this gov’t repeatedly presents rhetoric and cliché as POLICY. There was no plan going in…as evidenced by the devastating mistakes made over and over….and there is no plan now. The reference to staying the unknown course, and the vague notion of victory do not qualify. Why would you ‘stay the course’ if you are heading off a cliff? Closing your eyes doesn’t make the edge transform into more earth.
The republicans can’t have it both ways. They talk of the dangers of GLOBAL terrorism…and then speak as if the US isn’t a part of the global community. They act like our men and women dying in the sands of Iraq will immunize us against an attack in the US. THAT talk does not only our servicemen and women a disservice…but it does one to the citizens of the US. Wasn’t VP Cheney warning of dirty bombs in major US cities during the 2004 campaign? How, by their reasoning, could that be possible? We are over THERE fighting. And our troops will STILL be there when it DOES happen here. Yet the republican representatives kept spewing that garbage out last night, as if by saying it over and over would magically make it true.
What emboldens the enemy is that they can strike in the heart of Baghdad, when it had been declared a green zone. They are WILLING to die to kill. You CANNOT rationalize their thinking with that of western Christian thinking. Their belief in 72 virgins emboldens them. Their assured martyrdom emboldens them. Their hatred of outsiders in their land emboldens them.
They went on to wonder why no one was bringing up Afghanistan, and the loss of life there. Have they FORGOTTEN already?? The mastermind of 9/11 (the holy grail of GOP scare tactics) was harbored there by the regime of [b]that[/b] country. It was a direct response to a specific event. It was JUSTIFIED…we had WORLD SUPPORT. We were going after a proven and IMMINENT threat to our national security. No such case can be made regarding why we went into Iraq and it is IRRESPONSIBLE and IMMORAL to continue to link the two! Have they no shame?
Yes…our military is expected to complete it’s mission. The mission that was STATED prior to invasion. You cannot keep altering the mission….that is called NO PLAN. It is not a revising of plans the administration is doing…it is making it up as they go along!! Mr. President…you have never SAID what the plan is…what constitutes victory? Finding and destroying WMDs? There were none. Removal of Saddam from power and ‘liberation’ of Iraqis? Done. Giving the Iraqis a democracy? Done…they democratically voted in favor of a theocracy-styled government. Our ‘mission’ has indeed been accomplished.
It was quite telling that all the republicans said that their actions were not a personal attack on rep. Murtha…yet one let it slip that ‘now is not the time for Mr. Murtha’s resolution.’ Although that was not the resolution in front of them. The intent to silence critics was obvious to anyone wishing to see it.
So, the GOP can ACT offended at the notion that our military should no longer be used as a crutch, hampering the ability for Iraqis to stand on their own. The IRAQIS need to band together to rid their country of insurgents. Wanting it FOR them isn’t enough…THEY have to want it for themselves MORE. The GOP can continue to criticize and attack opponents, to use as a smokescreen for the fact that they offer no plan. They can rush an amendment to the floor to immediately withdraw, rather than have an intelligent debate about the realities and consequence of continued US presence. And they can blindly give their loyalty to the president that puts billions into Iraq while stripping it from Americans. They can ignore the reality that with each now torture scandal, we are seen as occupiers and no different from Saddams’ regime, around the world. Our credibility is in tatters! They can employ hysterics to twist the words of a man who speaks the truth…that a change of course is needed…and needed desperately. When a majority of Americans feel the way Mr. Murtha does, how DARE the republicans question his patriotism…or by extention call into question the patriotism of a majority of the country…they should examine their own.
The definition of insanity is to keep repeating the same action and expecting a different result. The administration truly IS insane.
NONE OF THAT MAKES US SAFER…NONE OF THAT SUPPORTS THE TROOPS!

Kathy_

Even though I am not a constituent of the 'woman from Ohio' I made sure I took the time to write her a little sumpin' sumpin'

especially after the coward 'cut and ran' from her own remarks.

How about tit for tat in the smear war. These right wing republicns are hiding more personal dirt than you can imagine. How about digging it up and using it. That is what America wants so give it to them. When you don't fight as hard or better than the other guy, you are percieved weak and loose and republicans know it. Democrats should know it by now.We didn't make those rules but when we used to win,we played by them better that any Republican because they have more dirt than we do.You have to use what works. It is that simple.

America's Iraq dilemma- Bush & Cheney can't save our asses and their faces at the same time.

There is no unilateral U. S. military solution to the problem. Public opinion now believes that the rational for war was illegitimate, but rejects cutting and running. To help break the polarization Democratic leadership needs to modify Murtha's heroic stance with modifications like- internationalizing a force that can secure the country, for the long term, until Iraq can stand on its own.

Where the hell was this outrage in the presidential campaign? Most all of y'all were perfectly willing to say that was JK's fault. Assholes.

Caliban, John Kerry lost by 2 points. Who was blaming him? I blamed the GOP sheeple who insited on sipping kool-aid throughout the campaign. Thank goodness SOME of them are snapping out of it! Better late than never.

click to read Cynthia McKinney's defense of Murtha.

The lady has a way with words. Her vote for immediate withdrawal was principled. She knew it was a Republican trick and identified it as such.

As the Grandson, son and father of war veterans, I am disgusted by the continuous attacks by Republican chickenhawks on honored veterans. But, their latest attacks on Congressman Murtha have explained to me why they all had "other priorities" when their nation called. Just look at who did their name calling for them. Thursday night is was a Congreswoman from Texas calling Congresman Murtha a coward. Friday it was a Congreswoman from Ohio doing the dirty work for them. It is obvious now to me that none of the Republican leadership served because in the military they would not have been allowed to hide behind women.

They DID NOT vote on John Murtha's resolution last night.

THE REGRESSIVE REPUBLICANS TRICKED YOU AGAIN!

pee-wee...tricked who?
Everyone here knows that the republican pushed, one sentence, unconditional withdrawl was NOT the resolution proposed by Mr. Murtha.

There are some on this blog who's comments reflect otherwise.

To the editor,

Having no experience in warfare nor vast knowledge of war histories, I tend to stay out of the debate over whether pulling the troops out now is better than beginning gradual withdrawl-- of course, anybody by now should realize that one way or another, we ought to be on our way out of Iraq.

But Rep. John Murtha (D-PA) does know a lot about warfare. Murtha spent 37 years in the Marine Corps. He is a voluntary veteran of the Korean and Vietnam wars. Since then and for nearly the same length of time, Murtha has been a highly respected advisor on military issues in Washington as a representative in the House. He has advised many administrations of both parties.

On Thursday, Murtha stood up and said that it looks to him like it's time to get out of Iraq, and the sooner the better. Many Democrats, including the House Minority Leader Pelosi, have spoken in favor of a gradual withdrawl over Murtha's suggestion-- but we must keep in mind that Murtha is one of Pelosi's advisors; Murtha is the leader on this issue.

And the Republicans spit on honorable Americans and make me sick. Rep. Jean Schmidt (R-OH) may have lowered the bar of decency and truth well into the ground: A Republican and most-junior member of the House after barely defeating Iraq War veteran Paul Hackett in a special election this summer, Schmidt has to odasity to call Murtha a "coward!"

Murtha spent 37 years in the marines. He didn't do it so some political-loudmouth could call him a coward when he got back. As the pro-war minority loves to remind liberals, current and former service men earned Schmidt the right to say what she likes, earned her the ability to govern her fellow citizens and send them off to fight more, and those people are not cowards.

The whitehouse spokesman, with no military experience, said that Murtha wants to "surrender to the terrorists." The vice president, also with no military experience, says that Murtha has lost his memory and his "backbone." Then, the GOP-controlled House forced a vote on a fake version of the Murtha bill with not enough time for debate in an attempt to split Democrats between those who vote to pull out now, and those who "support the war.

There is no excuse for Republican smears of Murtha's integrity, intelligence, and authority on warfare-- all three of which Murtha has spent a lifetime strengthening and demonstrating. I heard Murtha's conclusion - time to get out of Iraq - and I decided to read more about his concerns and proposals. The GOP heard Murtha's conclusion and decided to cover their ears, cover their eyes, and spit the most disgusting stuff they had in them straight back at Murtha.

And I wish I could say I didn't think they had that in them.

Sincerely,

Mark C. Gaffney

Vice Chair, Ohio College Democrats State Federation
President, Ohio University College Democrats

I think the link below tells a pretty big story about the current Neocon leaders...

Politician Military Duty List

Oneforall...yes....anyone can be guilty of such actions from any country. When I said said the same thing, I should clarify that I meant that that particular excuse (had to follow orders) came up again and again which is what is usually the case with rank and discipline in any military...that is why the leaders must be good.
Please everyone!!!! Go to the Cynthia Mckinney's Defense of Murtha at Hannah's Blog by clicking onto monicasmith line, it is so full of information and facts about Iraq in the eighties and what has happened...and it is no secret that Saddam was visiting Britain in 1987...it was all in the news at the time over there...why did Americans never hear about it here??? (Not until years later with the documentary on Iraq and Tibet televised...showed the massacres of the delta Bedouins and Kurds... at least in California in about 93-4.)
Get some real history - you will see that McKinney does know the facts of the recent past.
Click on monicasmith line to get there, so good.
Hope this helps!!!
Love M

On airamericaradio.com today I heard one of the Dem Representatives say about the Dems in the House that what happened last night "did our hearts good."

As Democrats we need to do a whole lot more yelling. I know it doesn't look good on TV, but the Dems in Washington have been cowed for so long that I think a good long screaming match might be just the thing to wake them up to their power.

We need to let the Dems know that when they stand up, we will stand behind them.

No more "playing ball" with the bad guys.

My community college students got their loans cut at 2 o'clock in the morning by a vote of 217 to 215.

I hope my students are ready to take on an extra shift at Burger King while the rich get their tax break on dividends.

The truth is finally coming out about this clowns! Remember the VP and Bush saying in their speeches..."we are going to bring decency and dignity back to the White House"?

This is only the tip of the iceberg. pinky

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, but the Germans have accused the Bush administration of twisting pre-war intelligence with regards to Iraq.
Here is the link to the drudge article:
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2.htm

I, as a Democrat, must say that I support Rep. Murtha and his courage in standing for what it right. As he said, the American people are way ahead of Congress in their thinking on Iraq, and I only wish that the rest of the Democratic Party, and it's leadership, would follow suit.

All one has to do is look at the weekly opinion polls to realize that the mood of the country has changed, and to know that NOW is the time for the Democratic party to step up as the Party of the American People.

I live in Indiana, where Senator Bayh, who claims to be a Democrat but sided and acts like a Republican, is spoken of as on of the possible Presidential Candidates for President in 2008. And the others listed as possible Democrat candidates are siding up with the Republicans in order to protect their jobs, going agains the will of the people.

I had great hopes in this party when Gov. Dean became Chairman, but alas, I see no changes. We must Stand up NOW, along with Rep. Murtha, on of the few Democrats who shows that we can, and must, have a spine. Or else, this party that is standing around watching things happen will fall apart.

In reference to madonna's comment earlier:

The vote on the house floor last night (friday) was on a resolution put forth by the Republicans. It was a mockup of the one Murtha has been working on for months, one that should have had more than one night's debate. I watched the final 3 hours of it on c-span and let me tell you, there was more than one parliamentary confusion as to what was really being debated.

When Pelosi learned of the Republican's trick, she instructed all the Dems to vote against it. I'm not sure of the logic here. However, the three "yea" votes on it came from 2 Dems and 1 Rep.
I'll look it up to find out who. My guess is Kucinich and Murtha and 1 brave Republican.

Oh, I might add that the house also voted themselves a $3100 raise last night. Right after cutting social programs and college loans.
That's $1,348,500 to their pockets as they pull from ours.

Go figure......

Oooops, I was wrong on the votes, the roll on TV said 2 Dems, 1 Rep. On the House site it lists 3 Dems as the "ayes" Cynthia McKinney D-GA, Jose Serrano D-NY, and Robert Wexler D-FL.

This resolution was put forward for a quick up or down vote by Duncan Hunter R-CA, not Murtha.

I am so glad this is coming out and maybe we will put this important dialogue on the front burner for awhile, that is, after the House returns from their 2 week vacation.

I'll tell you, I live in the district neighboring Jeane Schmidts, and when her term is up, I will be working full time for whoever is running against her. And Paul Hackett for Senate!!!!

You are doing a great job. Don't back down.
You are admired for putting our country ahead of politics. Please continue to stand your ground.
The truth needs to be spoken.

Cheney the chicken hawk:

FIVE DEFERMENTS:

1st deferment: Cheney enrolled in Casper Community College in January 1963 -- he turned 22 that month -- and sought his first student deferment on March 20.

2nd deferment: (student), after transferring to the University of Wyoming on July 23, 1963.

3rd deferment:(student)on Oct. 14, 1964.

4th deferment: attended graduate school at the University of Wyoming on Nov. 1, 1965.

5th deferment: On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Cheney had his first daughter. Cheney applied for 3-A status, the ''hardship''exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. It was granted.

Followup to my own earlier post:

"Oh yes, it's a trap - and it's a trap well sprung! Murtha baited the Roveistas and they took the bait. They reacted with their canned viciousness without considering who the target was. ... They have egg on their faces, and now the backlash will kill them. ..."

HA!
NOW Bush comes out with a 'cooler head'. Clearly Rove conducted a poll, figured out the people weren't drinking THIS Kool-aid, and contrived a new position. Just two days after Cheney blasted all Democrats for wanting to 'cut and run' and the gentlewitch from Ohio called Murtha a coward, Rove sticks his hand in Bush's head and moves his mouth to pay respect to Murtha, decline the ad hominem attack, and 'respectfully disagree'.

Do they actually have so little respect for the American people that they think they can FLIP-FLOP like that and we'll think Bush is the voice of reason?

It won't wash - the genie is out of the bottle and Bush can't stuff it back in. The Republicans are going down, and for once I am glad for the 'piling on' mentality of the press!

They said what they said and did what they did.

Introducing the sham mockery of Murtha's proposal, trying to trap reasonable people into either voting for a bad resolution or appearing to reject any notion of ever leaving, was childish and cynical in the extreme. THEY THINK THAT WE ARE ALL IDIOTS AND THEY CAN MANIPULATE US ANY WAY THEY WANT!

They insult every American with an IQ over 75. Those few who posted here indicating they bought it - well, the evidence speaks for itself.

Posted by MacSuibne on November 19, 2005 at 08:40 AM

Uhhh, the vote that went down 403 to 3, was the HUNTER proposal, not the Murtha one.

Several Republicans who were on the House floor said afterward that Ms. Schmidt did not appear to know she was referring to a much-decorated veteran.

"The poor lady didn't know Jack Murtha was a Marine - she really just ran into a hornet's nest," said Representative Jack Kingston of Georgia.

Representative David Dreier of California said, "Very clearly, she did not know that Jack Murtha was a Marine."

***

Horsefeathers! Of course she knew. She just didn't expect the backlash. David Drier is a pathological liar.

So, when Murtha points out the obvious, that Emperor Bush has no clothes in Iraq, everyone watch as all his drones march out screaming that he does...

YOu have to realize that all of this is coming apart for the GOP. First, they start an illegal war that there is no justification for. Then, they steal an election (all Democrats are required to read "Fooled Again" by Mark Crispin Miller. Then, they claim that they have a mandate with a straight face. Sooner or later, it all falls apart. As I have said many times, there is a reason that Bush's poll numbers are in the thirties (well two reasons) 1. Bush's real vote number was a lot closer to 40% than it was to 50%, and second, about 35% of our fellow citizens are stupid enough to think that the Bush Administration is actually telling the truth. We have to go after the Republicans for cheating and stealing elections. That is the only way this scourge will end. EVERYTHING has to be predicated on the fact that the Republicans have stolen the last three elections and thus stolen the public trust and discourse. People know for whom they voted, and it was not for the Jean Schmidts of the world. Even Republican voters are not that void of conscience.

If you would like to tell Congresswoman Jean Schmidt what you think of her insults to Representative John Murtha, this is a link to her online email page:

Click Here

Sorry. I see her web site filters out all addresses outside her Ohio district.

If you are willing send Schmidt a FAX her listed FAX numbers are:

FAX 202-225-1992 or 513-791-1696

DC Phone: 202-225-3164

Mailing address:

238 Cannon House Office Building Washington, DC 20515

Of course, all mail to Congress is delayed 2 weeks for X-Ray inspection

Dear Rep. John Murtha,

First, Bush went to war with Iraq to find WMD’s. He did not find any. So he threw up a smoke screen and claimed we are bringing democracy to Iraq. I support the first reason the U.S. went to war. We accomplished our mission. There were no WMD's. It is time to redeploy our troops.

If it were a perfect world, we would not need a military. A war is the extreme form of diplomacy. When all else fails, a nation is forcing its will on another nation. I agree there are times when a war is necessary. I submit to you, in the final analysis, a war serves no economic purpose. The products for war are manufactured to destroy life and property and not to build. For that reason, we must follow the example of President John Kennedy and do everything possible to avoid a war.

I lost a brother in World War II. Another brother came home safely and was awarded the bronze star. Like all veterans, I think the real heroes are the ones who gave their last full measure of devotion.

Respectfully,

Robert London

Rebuilding America's Defenses

Here's the strategy document that the framework for the US's current military state in the world... there are several assumptions that drive the document ... the primary one is that the US is the last super power and the US should use its military might to dictate world policy and take over parts of the world that the folks that wrote the document deemed important...

there are many problems w/ this document one being that it is ok to go to war based on ideology and not an actual risk... a lot like zealots going after other folks that they do not understand... Wiccan.. Buddhists... etc...the other is that the notion that violence will crush opposition... this is an existential threat to each person involved... that leaves only several option and violence out of fear is one of them... suicide bombers is another one.. cause the bombers see there communities actual existence threatened... soooo like many fascists belief in some idea.. is translated into a right to remove those that do not fit the idea... very very dangerous... that's one reason the European polls show that they view the US as the most dangerous nation on earth...

Please join me in writing to Dr. Howard Dean and other party leaders . . .

Sunday, November 20, 2005

Dr. Howard Dean, Chairman
Democratic National Committee
430 S. Capitol St. SE
Washington, DC 20003

Subject: Party Unity on Iraq

Dear Dr. Dean:

Today, many of us watched Sunday morning talk shows. The Harris Poll Thursday showed President George W. Bush's Poll number at 34 percent, and George W. Bush's War of Aggression on Iraq is the most important issue in every poll.

I worked on your presidential campaign for two years. I also worked for John Kerry's candidacy, and I have spoken on your behalf to DNC members in Northern Virginia when you were running for the chairmanship.

I am concerned that the Democratic Party has not come up with a unified withdrawal plan for the Iraq war or publicized one widely in the media. I know you were against the war from the start; that's one of the reasons I backed your campaign for president. Now, as the leader of our party, you need to push the rest of our key political leaders to join in a clear and realistic call for ending our occupation of Iraq. Our country has reached a crisis of opinion on this illegal War. At the same time, Democrats are terribly fractured on a solution. The nation’s priorities are in chaos, and the Party is not ready to take meaningful action.

I have written you before, and you were kind enough to reply. I know you are very hard-working and busy. Please take a moment to consider the following suggestions:

· We cannot afford to lose the initiative! Now that Jack Murtha has started the debate, it’s time for action by all the party’s leaders.

· We have been terribly ineffectual thus far.

· We desperately need a consensus and an unambiguous position.

I recommend you

· Call a national conference call for tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m.

· Follow it with an urgent Party Caucus in D.C. or NYC.

· Solicit inputs from the Democratic Think Tanks to help develop a strategy – both internal to the party and for the country.

· Follow on with an appeal to the news media and PACs for publicity.

· Ask key leaders to participate immediately – Representatives John Murtha and Nancy Pelosi as well as Senator Harry Reid.

· I know other party leaders would be strongly drawn to participate, perhaps Governor Mark Warner and Senators Hilary Clinton, John Kerry, Vice President Al Gore . . . .

So far, George W. Bush’s tragic war officially has cost the lives of over 2,080 American boys. U.S. Military Personnel who have died in German hospitals or en route to German hospitals are very rarely counted. They total about 6,210 as of January 1, 2005. The Department of Defense reports we have over 15,560 wounded, and official reports document another 27,000 in other than enemy action.

Giant corporations have received billions of taxpayer dollars in no-bid contracts in the war, and Iraq has turned into a black hole where our hard-earned dollars disappear with little or no oversight. It is a morass for our brave and abused soldiers.

George W. Bush lied. Our boys are dying. Please act today!

Sincerely yours,

Paul Matthews

. . .

References:
American War Casualties: http://icasualties.org/oif/
Iraq War Dead: http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/index.php#count
Uncounted Wounded: http://www.counterpunch.org/goff08012003.html
Iraq Body Count: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
Misled into War: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

If 'Mean Jean' didn't know Mr. Murhta's credentials...she should have never spoken. It's hard to believe that a person of her years could be THAT naive!

Does she not research ANYTHING? Apparently not, for she..

Doesn't know the house rules.
Doesn't know jacksquat about a person she is going to comment on in front of television cameras.
Quotes a marine who talks tough, but in his 30+ years never saw combat in ONE military engagement, and never faced the choice of 'cut or run.'

Is this the thoroughness she serves the people of her district? And they are FINE with this? Good Lord do they get the short end. They look like a bunch of idiots for choosing HER to represent them at the national level.

And now this draft dodging administration is saying John Murtha doesn't have a backbone. Now this administration that has never been on a battle field before because of their political influence is calling John Murtha unpatriotic. How dare they?

More administration insiders are coming out with stories on how Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld have been a running a gestapo style operation within the administration.

It is time for the democrats and moderate Republicans to stand up to this radical right wing administration!

Funny how the argument has changed from whether we leave Iraq or not to when would be the best time?

I say we get our troops out of Iraq before the newly elected Iranian-backed theocracy demands that our troops leave. Al Sistani will be calling the shots after the election not Chalabi...and he has stated often that he wants us out as soon as possible.

Mr. Bush, in his personal vendetta to topple Saddam, has sacrificed our troops and national dignity only so that Iran could inherit Iraq. Nice work, Mr. President. Not only did you insure that we lose the war but that the Iraqi people lose as well. They are stuck with an Islamic theocracy instead of a democracy.

The real winner: Iran.

Well Sandyh, of course the debate is shifting.
When you start a war with no plan at the beggining, and no quantifiable objectives, then the debate changes as time goes by.
If W had set any goals, then after they had been reached then there would have pressure to bring the troops home. Now, every 4 months there is a new goal (elections, democracy, Chalabi's birthday, memeorial day) that has nothing to do with beating, killing or stopping Al Queda or the Islamiofascism, or whatever it is we're fighting (see how we don't even know who the enemy is), and that deadline passes and the slaughter continues.
As it is, we'll never know when we have won, so we can never come home without cutting and running. Therefore we will be in Iraq permanently; which was the neocon goal all along.

Haven't you noticed? The Bush administration hates the military.
Keeping soldiers in Iraq with out a plan or an exit strategy is criminal. Firing an honest general who told them the truth and then passing over active Army generals and putting in a retired yes-man in as Army chief of staff is criminal. Not only ignoring reports that the Army Reserve units were ill-equipped but disbanding the organization that was tasked with making the reports is crininal. Refusing to buy proper equipment and refusing to reimburse the families of soldiers who bought the equipment they should have been issued is criminal. Putting our military personell into jobs they weren't trained for is criminal. Putting contractors in charge of soldiers (as in abuGraib)is crininal. Using targeted pay raises, and loss of family benefits for lower enlisted soldiers, many of whom have families on food stamps, is criminal. Cutting back on the Veteran's Administration at a time when the WWII and Korean War veterans are at an age of most need for the benefits they were promised, and at a time when they are creating more disabled veterans than any time since Viet Nam (incidentally many Viet vets are now in their 60's)is criminal. Shall I go on? Actions speak louder than words. Every time Bush or one of his cohorts prates about "Support our Troops" or attacks a veteran who disagrees with them, I want to puke.
But what do I know, I was only in the military for 30 years.

"Based on your posts, I will assume that Democrats will only vote for combat veterans in future elections.

Posted by tralfas on November 19, 2005 at 09:34 PM
"

Tralfas the Neocon machine has been calling americans who have served their country cowards for a few years now. Perhaps if they had the guts to serve their country they might have learned something about war and peace. No one here said you should only vote for veterans. But perhaps the List of Republicans who haven't served yet continue to send others, then call them cowards is a story ALL americans should know by heart.

I read all the comments carefully and noted that no one responded to NoPartyPreference who called Congressman Murtha "a disgusting COWARD". This person needs to be set upon by a few hungry pit bulls. But even they probably wouldn't pursue the bait.

Please don't tell me the Republican party has screwed up America, instead, tell me (give me particulars) 'HOW' the Democratic Party is going to 'Fix' America. Posted by NoPartyPreference on November 19, 2005 at 11:46 AM

What kind of a dumbass question is that? We'll fix things by putting them back the why they were when they worked fine before the Republicans screwed them up. Is that "particular" enough for you?

If 'Mean Jean' didn't know Mr. Murhta's credentials...she should have never spoken. It's hard to believe that a person of her years could be THAT naive! Does she not research ANYTHING? Apparently not, for she..
Doesn't know the house rules.
Doesn't know jacksquat about a person she is going to comment on in front of television cameras.
Quotes a marine who talks tough, but in his 30+ years never saw combat in ONE military engagement, and never faced the choice of 'cut or run.'
Posted by mammalicious on November 20, 2005 at 06:01 PM

It didn't bother Bush Junior to "cut and run" when he was in the Texas Air National Guard, now did it? Is he a coward?

I watched Murtha on one of the Sun. morning talk shows. He has backed off considerably from his stance a few days ago.

Murtha may be an honerable veteran and deserves respect for that, but that doesn't make him right or above criticism.
Courageous people don't flip flop on important matters.

The left found this guy, an honerable veteran, and paraded him in front of everybody as an experienced military man who was demanding immediate troop withdrawl. Then they saw the polling data that shows most Americans are against immediate withdrawl. So they dropped him like a hot potato.

Typical, the left has no conviction, no leadership and certainly no integrity.

I think the house vote fri. night was a good idea. Republicans said basicaly "you dems want to pull out, fine, lets vote and you can go on record in support of pullout" Of course very few did.

Back to flip flopping are you? Don't you people have any creativity? I might not have the conviction to making the same mistake over and over again. But I do have the resolve to see this through politically. You want to stay the course and "win" this war. Go ahead, tell me how you do it?

How about making Iraq the 51st state? Then we could cut their federal funds and make their militias fight for us --- at reduced pay and benefits, of course, with inferior equipment. They could pay tolls to fund their broken roads and sewage systems. And we could dump all those unemployed and mained by our shock and awe invasion off Medicaid.

It's time that the Iraqis find out how a true democracy treats its poor and sick.

I watched Murtha on one of the Sun. morning talk shows. He has backed off considerably from his stance a few days ago...

Courageous people don't flip flop on important matters.

The left ... paraded him in front of everybody as an experienced military man who was demanding immediate troop withdrawal...

I think the house vote fri. night was a good idea... go on record in support of pullout" Of course very few did.

Posted by Seahawkfan on November 21, 2005 at 01:09 AM

Yet another Kool-aid drinker. Can these people not listen to complete sentences and comprehend them? Does their entire world view come to them in words under five letters long? Is Sesame Street the only way to communicate to them? Do we need to get Kermit or Miss Piggy to explain that the proposal Murtha explained Sunday morning was exactly what he had said earlier in the week, that all the accusations that he had called for immediate withdrawal were bogus, and that the Republican sham proposal was a contrivance to attempt to spin reality for his benefit? How can we delicately explain to him that he has demonstrated in writing that he is a gullible, unthinking, manipulated pawn of the neocons?
Sigh... no hope. We have to just accept that in our society the right to freedom of speech does not require actually thinking, listening, and analyzing before exercising it. Repeating catch phrases like "flip flop" must be very satisfying. Sort of like following the cheerleaders cue cards at a ballgame. "Go" "Team"..."Win" "Game"

Hey Seahawkfan,
So then, what is Georgie W's Plan? Out a few more CIA agents? Keep up the relentless attacks on Democrats? If the Bush and Rove spent as much energy on Iraq as they do on going after political opponents, they may have been able to win in Iraq. For a thorough display of why we should leave Iraq now, watch the video from McLaughlin group, with Lt Gen Odom and his nine points (available at Crooks and Liars)

I'm amazed at the people who keep talking about flip-flopping. I watched the debate on CSPAN. The Democrats reiterated over and over that it was a REPUBLICAN bill that had critical sentences changed and it was a ploy by the REPUBLICAN party and that it was NOT Murtha's bill. What is it? Do the Repubs have a large protion of the population so brainwashed that they think that Democrats flip-flop even when they don't???
These people need to wake up and smell the spin, because it really stinks.

Seahawkfan

Let us agree W, Dick and Rummy are the cowards. They had other priorities when other folks of their generation were in Vietnam.

How dare you radical right Republicans call John Murtha a coward without a backbone. John Murtha has not changed his position. It is this incompetent President that is running scared. It is he who is changing his tune on Martha after he, Dick and the White House spokesman questioned John Murtha's patriotism.

Democrats need to start impeachment process against this President. They do not have the votes in Congress but at least they could make a symbolic statement.

OK, Who said that veterans are not against the war?

Not a true statement. Maybe there should be a poll for only Veterans.

Also, a message for the Administration; How long do you think the United States Armed Forces will tolerate your total lack of Support?

If you are going to Support them, then do it. But don't use them to Hype the already incredible Lies that are being spewed everyday in the media by your hired reporters.

You do a great Dis-service to your brave men and women.

As we all know, talk coming from the White house, is not Cheap!! And the cost for our Military Folk is thier Lives!!

The Mother of NOT ONE!!! BUT TWO MARINES!!

http://www.ivaw.net/http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php

It is time for people to start questioning Dick Cheney's patriotism?

One wonders if the only the purpose of this war is for Dick's Halliburton to swindle this country at the cost of the lives of thousands of young men and women. And thousands more decapicitated because of this war.

A quote from Murtha's website on 11\17\05
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr051117iraq.html

regarding what he thinks we should do...

"To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces"

If that's not a pullout, please tell me what it is

The latest "cut and run, flip flop traitor" -- the U.S. commander in Iraq, General Casey:

The top U.S. commander in Iraq has submitted a plan to the Pentagon for withdrawing troops in Iraq, according to a senior defense official.

Gen. George Casey submitted the plan to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. It includes numerous options and recommends that brigades -- usually made up of about 2,000 soldiers each -- begin pulling out of Iraq early next year.

Arrest that man! He's is cutting and running! Emboldening the terrorists!

George Bush in Mongolia. Is there any place further away from the US? It's a hoot that Bush has to go to Mongolia and China this time of the year.Must be getting a little hot in the White House for him right now.It's a shame he has to come back.

Murtha never proposed an “immediate” or “sudden” withdrawal of troops. This is Murtha’s resolution:

Whereas Congress and the American People have not been shown clear, measurable progress toward establishment of stable and improving security in Iraq or of a stable and improving economy in Iraq, both of which are essential to “promote the emergence of a democratic government”;

Whereas additional stabilization in Iraq by US military forces cannot be achieved without the deployment of hundreds of thousands of additional US troops, which in turn cannot be achieved without a military draft;

Whereas more than $277 billion has been appropriated by the United States Congress to prosecute US military action in Iraq and Afghanistan;

Whereas, as of the drafting of this resolution, 2,079 US troops have been killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom;

Whereas US forces have become the target of the insurgency,

Whereas, according to recent polls, over 80% of the Iraqi people want US forces out of Iraq;

Whereas polls also indicate that 45% of the Iraqi people feel that the attacks on US forces are justified;

Whereas, due to the foregoing, Congress finds it evident that continuing US military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the people of Iraq, or the Persian Gulf Region, which were cited in Public Law 107-243 as justification for undertaking such action;

Therefore be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

That:

Section 1. The deployment of United States forces in Iraq, by direction of Congress, is hereby terminated and the forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable date.

Section 2. A quick-reaction U.S. force and an over-the-horizon presence of U.S Marines shall be deployed in the region.

Section 3. The United States of America shall pursue security and stability in Iraq through diplomacy.

I don’t see anything about an “immediate” or “sudden” withdrawal in there, do you? Murtha’s essentially asking for a progress report and maintaining political liaisons and reduced Marine presence on the ground as soon as practicable.

Murtha’s resolution was never debated on the floor. It was the Republican Hunter resolution that was voted down. This is Congressman Hunter’s resolution in full:

It is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately.

Hunter’s resolution was brought up for debate knowing no one, not Republicans or Democrats, could support his resolution. So what we have is a bunch of Republican Congressmen and women belaboring a Republican resolution as if it was a Democrat’s resolution (Murtha), to make it appear as if Democratic Congressmen and women want to “cut and run” in Iraq. Meanwhile, Cheney and the rest of the cogs in the spin machine are working their hardest to make it appear this is not the case.

Congratulations Republicans on making a mockery of the sacrifices of the men and women who’ve served in Iraq you allegedly love so deeply for political partisan gains. It’s not a soldier’s place to publicly criticize policies. If the politicians elected to represent soldiers can’t earnestly debate the policies that put them in harm’s way, who can?

Kudos...

Nov. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Iraqi leaders, meeting at a reconciliation conference in Cairo, urged an end to violence in the country and demanded a timetable for the withdrawal of coalition troops from Iraq

Despite the "only cowards cut 'n run" crowds banshee like screaming it appears getting our troops out of Iraq on the earliest possible timetable has now become the mainstream battle cry.

Seahawkfan
Do you agree W, Dick and Rummy are cowards and do not have a backbone?

Do you agree the nation is right in questioning Dick's patriotism? The only benefit from this war has been son of halliburton has made a huge profit. If the administration claims this war has been successful, then isn't it logical to conclude that this administration went to war to benefit Halliburton?

How dare you radical right wing Republicans question John Murtha's partiotism?

"I read all the comments carefully and noted that no one responded to NoPartyPreference who called Congressman Murtha "a disgusting COWARD". This person needs to be set upon by a few hungry pit bulls. But even they probably wouldn't pursue the bait."

"Yet another Kool-aid drinker. Can these people not listen to complete sentences and comprehend them? Does their entire world view come to them in words under five letters long? Is Sesame Street the only way to communicate to them? blah blah?"

"Lots of other post I don't want to cut and paste"

Thats the way to do it, these folks disagree with us so lets "smear" them while at the same time proclaiming our righteous indignation to the republican smear tactics!

Don't be silly.
I'm a democrat, be sure of that, but its for the right reasons, not because I'm a tool that gets outraged whenever I'm told too.

Honestly our party and their party aren't that much different. Nowadays politics is simply two huge propaganda machines trying to deceive more people then the opposing one. Its disgusting. We need to demand integrity from ALL OF OUR politicians. They need to be interesting in serving America not their respective brand-labels.

I am a soldier but I'm not a sheep, and I'm tired of being told what to believe. I'm tired of having to pick through all the connotations and half-truths to see the facts.

Meh.

These guys who work for the RNC aren't worth responding to. They just work the boards and do what they are told to do by the Bush boys and pretend to be some average American. They are the discusting cowards in this country and we should know that by now.

It is irresponsible of the Republican Party leadership and their neoconservative allies to deny that the Republican Party leadership and the neoconservatives did mislead the nation in making the case for war in Iraq.

Again, I wish to thank all who have donated their time and thought... and information here. I wish that some of this could be aired on basic cable news but have seen nothing that explains much of anything, lordy don't they like to keep most Americans confused!
Speaking of...So now we have a General retiring??? Just up and in the middle of a crucial point in a war, RETIRING??? Is it just me or is there something really off here. I do not recall Generals, Presidents or even Prime Ministers "just retiring" during WW2. Perhaps there is a health problem? This is not some lesser commander...this is a leader, the leader of our active forces. What is he planning on doing, riding off into the sunset singing "Happy Trails To You"? It goes along with the list of who in office actually served (above). You would think this was a corporation, not the US Military. It just stinks of armchair again!
Can anyone add to this latest strange dissonance in events? Talk about cut and run!!! I would like to hear more, I have been watching, but it is not in the mainstream media. Just alot of the same old whitewash balony. Thanks...

Axis of evil: W, Dick and Rummy

It is simply a fact that Democrats like Murtha are encouraging the Iraqi insurgents when they say the war is going badly and it's time to bring the troops home. Whether or not there is any merit to the idea, calling for a troop withdrawal — or "redeployment," as liberals pointlessly distinguish — will delay our inevitable victory and cost more American lives.

Anti-war protests in the U.S. during the Vietnam War were a major source of moral support to the enemy. We know that not only from simple common sense, but from the statements of former North Vietnamese military leaders who evidently didn't get the memo telling them not to say so. In an Aug. 3, 1995, interview in The Wall Street Journal, Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army, called the American peace movement "essential" to the North Vietnamese victory.

"Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American anti-war movement," he said. "Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

What are we to make of the fact that — as we now know — the Democrats don't even want to withdraw troops from Iraq? By their own account, there is no merit to their demands. Before the vote, Democrats could at least defend themselves from sedition by pleading stupidity. Now we know they don't believe what they are saying about the war. (Thanks to that vote, the Islamo-fascists know it, too.)

The Democrats are giving aid and comfort to the enemy for no purpose other than giving aid and comfort to the enemy. There is no plausible explanation for the Democrats' behavior other than that they long to see U.S. troops shot, humiliated, and driven from the field of battle.

They fill the airwaves with treason, but when called to vote on withdrawing troops, disavow their own public statements. These people are not only traitors, they are gutless traitors.
Ann Coulter

Funny that people who have never been in the service and their war experience is nothing but a few movies can know what our troops might think when a decorated Vietnam hero makes a statement. This congressman has backed the military from the beginning and and they know it. He has supported our soldiers because he has served in war and knows what it's like unlike the not so brave guys that sent our troops to this one.Murtha's statement is not against our soldiers, it is disagreeing with the polititians that sent them there. Big difference.George Bush and the Republican cronies hide behind our soldiers when someone disagrees with them and their idea of the democracy they claim we are fighting for, is to shut up anybody who might disagree with them. When someone stands up to guys like Bush and Cheney, they are the heros and if Bush's plans do not suit America, they are wrong for this country and must be changed. I don't see any crown on Bush's head and the last time I checked we were a free country and we had free speach and if Republican cronies don't like it, they can leave. Soldiers have not but their lives on the line and paid the ultimate price for some group of polititians to shut you up when you dissagree with them.

There never was a reason to attack Iraq. The ultimate shame of this nation and one it can never live down, is it's attempt to dominate another culture and the lies it told to do so and steal that nation's natural resources.

It is high time the Democratic Party denounced their own foolishness in approving the Invasion of that Sovereign nation, in an act only reminiscient of The Nazi invasion of Poland, more than 60 years ago.

Now is the time to recant and join Murtha in his heroic stance. Democrats must stand unified to prevent any more Americans from suffering death or disfigurement in the indefensible search for a fasle Democracy in a Nation immersed in it's own trivial but lethal Civil unrest.

Americans must rise, especially our elected officials, to this occassion, without hesitation.

There never was a reason to attack Iraq. The ultimate shame of this nation and one it can never live down, is it's attempt to dominate another culture and the lies it told to do so and steal that nation's natural resources.

It is high time the Democratic Party denounced their own foolishness in approving the Invasion of that Sovereign nation, in an act only reminiscient of The Nazi invasion of Poland, more than 60 years ago.

Now is the time to recant and join Murtha in his heroic stance. Democrats must stand unified to prevent any more Americans from suffering death or disfigurement in the indefensible search for a fasle Democracy in a Nation immersed in it's own trivial but lethal Civil unrest.

Americans must rise, especially our elected officials, to this occassion, without hesitation.

Ann Coulter,
No amount of radical right wing propaganda can change the fact this administration has screwed up with respect to Iraq. This is possibly one of the most incompetent wars in the history of the country.There was no planning going into the war, there is no strategy for securing the peace or how to get out of the quagmire Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have landed us into.

None of the objectives of the war have been met. Bush senior armed Saddam to his teeth to neutralize the influence of Iran and looked the other way when Saddam was gassing his own people. Junior comes along and totally negates that policy; Iran is the one country that is getting a strategic advantage in the region because of this war.

Violence in Iraq is not because "liberals" are voicing their concern about the war. Violence is escalating because of the incompetence of this radical right wing administration. Terrorism in the world is escalating because of the incompetence of this radical right wing administration. No amount of propaganda by radical right wingers will change that fact. So don't even try that line. The silent majority is waking up to the lies of the vocal radical right wing. The country will not take this incompetent war any more.

I agree, stand your ground. This is only the beginning.

That's so true Sam...
The first unilateral pre-emptive offensive attack on another sovereign nation in the history of the United States of America.
For what, a personal vendetta and profits? Or is there really something here about world domination? Where did it start? Why? What did Americans do to deserve this and how did it start? Where did it start, when? What is their gripe? Who do they not like, what do they want?
Now what...where is the victory and where is the plan?
The plan is to "secure peace", to create order and self rule....democracy...
Just how is Peace Won?
Peace is required for Democracy to function.
Now think this ACoulter...Do you think they like what happened to their land, their museums, etc?
Do you think they like your violence and paranoia? Do you understand them or speak their language? Do you understand what negotiate or diplomacy means?
Do you understand that war is mass murder? What is your plan? To keep killing ad infinitum?
Do you understand that The United States of America is not in a vacuum, that it is a part of the world? Do you understand that the world is made up of other countries with different customs and histories? Do you understand the difference between Kurd, Suny, Shiite, Bedouin? Have you ever read Al Quran?
Have you ever lived abroad or in a third world country? Do you understand that to achieve any peace, there first must be achieved trust? Do you believe that humans have logical minds and intelligence to understand the principles and premises of philososphy that have been studied since before ancient Greece? Have you studied history, pre-history of the near, middle and far east? Do you know where Mesopotamia is?
Do you have any trust in your fellow humans on planet Earth? Do you understand what Civilized means? Do you know the definition of Liberal in the dictionary? Do you understand the study of conversational interaction, symbolic words and labeling theory, political language, ideological hegemony? Do you understand the concept of self fulfilling prophesy, stigma, conflict resolution?
Do you know who the American engineers were that helped design the dams for Saddam that killed all the delta Bedouins? Do you know what Global warming is? Have you ever heard the term "Yankee Imperialist" yelled at you on the street in another country? Do you know what exploitation is? Do you understand what worker's rights, minimum wage and worker's compensation is? Do you know about the slave labor by illegal immigrants here and subjects in other countries whose products are being sold here? Do you know what run away shop means?
Sorry, but it has been well known across the pond for a long time. It has been on TV documentaries since the early nineties...where have you been? Have you not listened to the c-span coverage of the independent council on 9/11 and the association of certain American firms with Sheik Said, supporter and funder of Mohammad Atta? That he and others were let in and out of the country aside from regular customs procedures, given special passes? That warnings to watch out for these guys was given, but the papers sat on desks of certain current administrators ignored? That there were no return acknowledgements of these warnings?
One begins to wonder after all of this if there has not been a bit of mis-management going on...
Even educated Republicans who are....afterall, also....Americans. Is this not correct?
Do you understand the Geneva Convention and the definition of war crimes?
Perhaps you might understand the old Puritan saying...Practice what you preach, do unto others as ye would have done unto you, or turn the other cheek?
Ooops, another contra-dict-ion.
Peace, love, education, and freedom of information, thought and speech in the United States so that We The People can ask questions and find solutions,
Oh, by the way...not many Americans donated away most of their fortunes in an attempt to make sure a vote was recalled that was not counted correctly in Florida in 2000...now that is what I would call a concerned American..She,(Ms.Fonda-Turner), knew what was coming in the future, ah -one can only imagine how nice we would have had it if Gore had been able to take his rightful post as our President...Perhaps none of this trouble would have started or events gone at all the same way and evidently Atta and buddies were aware of that too. Guess they did not like people who don't practice what they preach...It seems logical doesn't it? As I said, many Americans are wondering these days...one thing we know, solutions that are successful in creating peace and good health in any country are always good for the People who have to live there.
I think Murtha was looking for solutions. Oh, by the way, did you ever watch a close friend's boyfriend come back from Nam in a body bag?
Love, M.

"These guys who work for the RNC aren't worth responding to. They just work the boards and do what they are told to do by the Bush boys and pretend to be some average American. They are the discusting cowards in this country and we should know that by now." --Tug

I might be confused here. Are you saying I'm a coward and that I'm in the RNC because I have an opinion? Not even a republican opinion, just one you don't like? Ok.

All I'm advocating is free-thinking, integrity and repectable debate. If that makes me a republican then then why the heck would anyone vote democrat, not to mention me? I usually do. Why then? Maybe I'm just confused again... Or maybe you're confused. Maybe you don't know why you believe what you do, you just spout off lines you've heard other people use?

Baahh.

If you have been lucky enough to get an education and go to college, there is something all undergrad students are taught in classes about scientific experiments or what is called Empirical Inquiry. To keep an open unbiased mind.
You may go into the exploration thinking that one particular outcome is the case, but along the way as the information comes in, you may be surprised to find that something other than what you thought was the cause of the phenomenon and the conclusion to your experimental study turns out different. Either way, the aim is to get the true or truest answer presently available as to the phenomenon so that a solution is reached, or a conclusion that points in the direction of clear understanding for better efficiency and correct functioning. Also, conclusions do change themselves, and over time may create what are called paradigm shifts in science causing what are called scientific revolutions where a long held theory gets so many holes in it that the whole theory becomes replaced with a new one. Furthermore, the new theory may contain some of the old parts that worked combined with new parts. Some situations are new and other factors remain constant. Each unique event should be examined thoroughly as change is a constant. Read Kuhn's book "Scientific Revolutions".
The issue in opinion formation is that in science, one constantly checks for anomolies and other biases or contradictions with a neutral open awareness that fair and square - what is coming in as factual evidence is analyzed and recognized for what it is. One observes what it is made of, how it occurs, what it reacts to, if it fits, if it works toward some solution, etc.
All in all this is recorded and the facts are in place.
This can serve in society and the study of mass behavior. One can take the media and examine it the same way for example. One can question and questions are good for gaining understanding and clarity. Study and debate always brings up issues, questions, and answers and investigating does the same thing. It is important for professionals and leaders to 1) know the answers before action 2)Act ethically in accordance with the standing laws and interests of the People.
3)Keep getting more answers due to fresh evidence.
So, it is good to voice opinions and ask questions in the interests of the continued good health of one's fellows and to better inform oneself for one's own survival. If evidence comes in contrary to one's beliefs, it should be fairly recognized as factual, not ignored, or hushed for other motives such as greed or power....for such a fact may have a future impact on events and results..it should atleast be noted. If there is a further question, investigations should continue to seek more factual evidence that may explain an anomaly...it is an ongoing process that should be handled objectively. One should be equally glad to be proven right or wrong as one is corrected on the facts and therefore, one can go forward on solid knowledge. Otherwise one is the proud owner of a disproven biased attitudinal set.
What is at issue is not to do with being labeled or not labeled, but being correctly labeled in the moment for what is factual and everything changes including labels so moving living beings are never just one thing and no two people experience the same life path through time. Also, there is labeling and there is motive in labeling, ie, false consciousness, false labels that hurt or defame or blame or misinform or labels that mystify confuse or fictiously glorify to gain position or fame. There are ulterior motives that can distract or shade the process of investigation itself.
The issue is not just about being called good, bad or cowardly, but faulty information in higher circles that the majority of a citizenry were not privy to, Star Chambers behind closed doors and other such situations that are outside the publicly agreed upon and known order of law and information which stands voted on,tried and already proven to function successfully as has been built over years of hard work and tradition, also in this case which has internal mechanisms called checks and balances in the operation of orderly conduct and the procedure of Government. A wrong set of assumptions that many people become convinced of through continued misinformation shades opinion and therefore shades what people think they are voting on. Take the example of the used car salesman, promising the perfect product only to make a profit selling a disatisfied customer a lemon.
Everyone has a right to an opinion. Everyone has a right to question. Everyone has a right to know whether their opinion is based on true or false evidence. Everyone has a right to continue to check one's sources of information, and one's premises on a continual basis. But it is also a fact that many have a motive at the root of their actions.
Someone above made an excellent point, it is the politicians that order the military into a war...it is the People who must determine whether the grounds (premises) for such drastic destructive and painful action are based upon true and dire circumstances, whether such an act is relevent/proportional to the true ongoing situation, whether such an act will bring constructive results or whether there is a risk of consequences that are not in the interests of the betterment of the People. Whether there are alternatives, what the cause is, what the curative solution for continued peace is, what the motives of the one promoting such action as war, violence, destruction, murder...is and if this is appropriate. Please notice, the word party has not been used once....However, performance, accuracy, results, honesty, these factors lead one to see if the motives and visions and wishes of the action and actors has come from either a blinder vision attitude, or a focus on wrong details problem, or dreamy blurred vision negating details, too wide of an overextending view or assumption that was unrealistic physically not possible, not affordable not able to actualize or keep up with the dream or goal...like an unplanned exploration to the antarctic for example...such things do bring failure sad as it is...the objective is to avoid failure, a blunder or an accident.
It is that many thinking folks here do care and do inform themselves and cannot help but see a long list of blunders with this administration, which were created on this administration's watch, and had witnessed prior to this administration and congress, a very successful and rational governing for the previous eight years and this is being called into question after much suffering and loss. The mounting blunders, some accidental, some perhaps intentional in and of themselves, have indeed become precipitating events compounding into bigger long term problems. The word Victory is not defined as suffering and loss. There is a contradiction. A rocket blows up, a ship can sink, the brakes can fail.
We ask that certain people take off their rosy colored glasses and examine the premises and facts of actions or inactions that have led us down this primrose path to 2005. There are differences between attacking the private domain of any individual's behavior, and having bombs dropped on people's heads. Corrections and answers, facts and articles about the clarity of events and issues are always welcome here to assist those who wish to inform themselves to make a decision based on knowledge which is a basic right of this public citizenry.
However, the progress report of this administration and stacked deck congress is not looking good. The light bulb has been flickering since 2000. The People have been patiently waiting for things to get better. They have gotten worse for all on every level. It's time for a change if an evolutiion to more constructive living is not able to be achieved. War is not a joyful adventure or a fun hunting expedition. Bombs and bullets blow up a body and there is pain and death, this is not sport. Military Arts are not Cullinary Arts although both are constantly polishing up and perfecting the art and practice of profession. But without the honor and the reason and the right to justice, taking lives is not glory. One does not lightly begin to awaken the primitive kill instinct in homo sapiens with big destructive weapons for fun or to award medals. This is not a movie, this is real life, not a computer game, this is real life and there is pain and a dead man has no country, no family, no ego. The objective of successful living is certainly not to pass on pain and death for fun. The premise contains the kernal of Concience and the issue becomes Ethics. The losers are usually the ones with a bad concience...a bad or false premise leads many down a wrong course.
Americans who care do not want fellow Americans to suffer or to cause any problems for others. Most truly want to be the best they can be in a lifetime of for and by the people they grow up with and know and work with in their communities. The premises are usually toward gaining success and a better life. A good way to check the first American Premise is to re read the Declaration of Independence. The People do not just get up and fight for fun. It takes a lot to make them rise up against oppression, but when checking into what they want is not performed enough as in democracy, unrest happens. Democracy is the brilliant logical mechanism of a three tiered governing body to prevent revolution and war, to allow for reform to take place in peaceful reasonable agreement and compromise of for and by the People and their representatives.
Premises can change suddenly in current events as they unfold and the events themselves can turn the tables on the primary initiator of the action, for example, from Offence to Defence as in a game of Chess..then you are in deep foopaw for sure...it all does make sense if you take the time to study and read and this is why conscious action is so important to achieve good ends in the first place. Have you checked your premises lately? Have you checked the premises and motives of your representatives lately? Have you checked or double checked anything you have read seen or heard on the news lately? Have you checked with others at all lately? The actions of a delusional alchoholic can be devastating to others around him/her while he/she is blind to anything other than satisfaction of his/her cravings. As the old saying goes, Allforone and Oneforall. It is wonderful that we are civilized and free to keep reasoning, inventing and learning with each other as fellow Americans...and this makes sense on all levels and domains of societal life so we try to keep the channels open to reach enlightenment, trust, and solutions in the hope and aim of creating a future we and our children can live with...I hope this helps in some little safe way to clear away your foggy confusion BigPic and others. Reason is key...
Love, M.

Wow. Great post :p

That last paragraph is actually what I was trying to say and what I've said before.
"Know the facts so you know what you're talking about." Don't recite talking points.

Once again, great post; I like how you broke it down to 1+1. I'm gonna save this one.