Perhaps Murtha and others are concerned because pictures such as the ones featured at the following link are on the internet for all to see. I believe either CNN, MSNBC, or Drudgereport ran a story yesterday that stated we MAY be using White Phosphorus in Iraq. If it's true, I'm disgusted. That could be what Murtha means when he said the war isn't being conducted "as advertised."

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=12676

I don't think we should withdraw our troops immediately, but no one can say "Murtha isn't patriotic" or suggest that he doesn't love this country. I think it's disgusting that every time people question Republicans, Republicans attack those who dare to question them as unpatriotic.

I can't stand that bitch, Jean Schmidt, she's MY rep and does not speak for me.

Murtha deserves repsect. It took guts for him to stand up yesterday and say what he said. I think rather than vote against bringing the troops home immediately, those Democrats who do not support taking troops home now should abstain rather than vote against it. The reason those democrats should abstain is because there may come a time when we need to simply pull the troops out immediately. This will definitely happen if the GOP refuses to set dates that will serve as goals to work toward with regards to Iraqi military capability and involving the Sunnis in the political process. Republicans have been so pig-headed and arrogant in refusing to re-examine their policies. If we don't set goals to work toward, we're going to lose.

I cannot believe that the Republicans turned this into another attack against a Rep. who served for his country.

This isn't Murtha's resolution. This is political B.S., grandstanding for the cameras. I hope all the Dems vote "present" while stating that they want to debate MURTHA's resolution.

Hopefully she'll lose in 2006 then you won't have to put up with her anymore.

It's incredible the GOP doesn't want to set dates/goals to work for with regards to training Iraqi troops and involving the Sunnis in the political process. Every time anyone questions the Iraq strategy, immediately Republicans question their patriotism. Ironically, it is their failed policy that is causing us to have so many problems over there. They should re-examine their flawed policies. They refuse to have a goal-orientated strategy -- they refuse to set goals that can be measured.

Agreed. They should vote "present." Then they should talk about how the GOP has chilled debate/strategy development with regards to the Iraq war, because anytime anyone makes a suggestion, or points out problems, they attack the individual rahter than addressing the individuals concerns.

They prevented the nation from debating whether or not to enter the war by attacking protestors. They called anyone who didn't want to invade Iraq an "appeaser." this is why the public feels mislead. They never allowed us to fully debate the issue. While inspectors were looking for weapons and finding none, Bush ordered the attack.

Will someone tell me what happened?

I got a phone call at the critical moment ... :(

we have got to mention that no one is allowed to criticize or debate, because the GOP suggests anyone questioning them is unpatriotic or, to quote McCarthy, "Un-American"

The GOP is acting like Murtha proposed a resolution calling for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops. They're trying to force dems to take a stand on whether we should withdraw immediately.... Dems should simply vote "present"

They've also attacked Murtha. They're saying he's unpatriotic and trying to hurt the UNited States in exchange for political gain. In other words, the GOP is mad that Murtha had the guts to tell them "things aren't going well."

"The war isn't being conducted like you said it was going to be conducted. We need a change..."
Etc...
you get the idea -- any time anyone questions the GOP, they get attacked and the GOP refuses to address the real issue

Here is a link that suggests the U.S. may be using White Phosphorus in conducting the war

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=12676

this isn't the way to win the peace. This isn't hte way to win the war. We should be focusing on increasing Iraqi capability and including in the political process all Iraqi groups. We should have concrete, measurable goals toward which we can work. Instead, the GOP simply attacks war critics as unpatriotic. This is exactly why we're in this mess to begin with.

VOTE!!

Do you think the United States should:

Stay the course in Iraq --? 3%

Withdraw U.S. troops within six months --?? 75%

Commit to do whatever it takes to win the war -- 22%

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

Funny how the house republicans still dont get it when poll after poll shows that 2/3 of america believes the Bush admin is screwing up royally.

They refuse to realize they are now a MINORITY when it comes to what americans want.

To force a vote in congress that doesn't allow for the safety and security of our troops (which is what Rep. Murtha proposed) only shows further proof that house Republicans are absolute idiots that still cannot put together a plan to curb spending, reduce THEIR deficit for the past 5 years and bring home our familys safely from a war that should never have happened!

I think the administration is exactly where they want to be in this war. Slow and bogged down. Why, because it costs more money that way. Who is getting rich, Haliburton and Cheney, that is why it is so linked to the CIA leak case. I am a former police officer so I gage things by who had the most to gain, movtive, Cheney. Who had the opportunity, Cheney. Who had the means, Cheney. Who is runing the white house, Cheney. Any questions?

"If we are going to continue to be proud that we are Americans, there must be no weakening of the code by which we have lived; by the right to meet your accuser face to face, if you have one; by your right to go to the church or the synagogue or even the mosque of your own choosing; by your right to speak your mind and be protected in it." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower, November 23rd, 1953.

United States Congressman Jack Murtha of Pennsylvania finally spoke his mind yesterday about the war in Iraq. And war is a subject he knows a great deal about, for you see, Congressman Murtha is also retired Marine Corps Colonel and Vietnam Veteran Jack Murtha who earned a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts in the service of his country.

Of course the Bush administration, which was already in political free fall, immediately went to the same old tired counterpunch mode of trying to accuse, attack, and smear Colonel Murtha as they have done previously against the likes of Commander John McCain, and Lieutenant John Kerry who also served their country with great distinction in the Vietnam War, another unpopular, ill conceived, and deceptively sold war, in which both President Bush and Vice President Cheney went to great lengths to avoid having to serve.

"In this country, if someone dislikes you, or accuses you, he must come up in front. He cannot hide behind the shadow. He cannot assassinate you or your character from behind, without suffering the penalties an outraged citizenry will impose." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower, November 23rd, 1953.

We the People must finally hold President Bush to account for his repeated and shameless character and patriotism attacks on anyone of conscience who dares to stand up to him and speak truth to power. We the People must finally stand up and say with one voice "enough Mr. President, have you no shame?" and demand an apology.

Respectfully,

Doug D.,
Orlando, FL

cnn question for e-mail responses what is the meaning of the rejection of the immediate pullout by Congress? I argue that it was another set up vote like the one that took us to war. Add your voice.

The critics of Rep. Murtha are being foolish. They should consider whether their stance is in long term best interests of the nation.

A. Stephen Thamban

I heard on C-Span yesterday, the prosecuter for Hitlers Gang said: The Gang used the fear factor in their defense. Many people in Germany and the World thought the Jews would get the bulk of the wealth and take over the rest of the World. This was their excuse for trying to wipe out a Nation.
The other Nations set up a Security Councel in the UN with the rule of law that no group or Nation can go to War with a Group or Nation on the basis of fear of an eminent danger. There has to be an overt action against another.
So we do have to have a permission slip to go to war or else be charged with War Crimes.
Don't you hope and pray the USA will somehow escape being charged with war crimes? We have enough of a Bully image.

Even though I am not a constituent...I had to let this ''woman'' know how I felt of her antics. I hope others do too!

How dare you attack a man of Mr. Murthas service as a coward!! Your 'cut and run' from your words on the floor is a testament to your character...or should I say LACK of it?
You NAMED him and then slandered him, and then spinelessly tried to say you didn't mean anyone PERSONALLY??
You truly are something that has managed to crawl up from under a rock. Time for you to crawl back underneath it.
I truly hope you feel the adequate shame that you deserve for attacking in the pack mentality you obviously don't have the courage to rise above. You didn't even have the courage of your convictions to stand by what you said! I look forward to your loss in the next election.

W's Rush to War: A Walk Down Memory Lane

Of course Bush and his entire administration are today trying mightedly to distort history by asserting "you all had the same intelligence." But just when did Bush decide it was time to give up on diplomacy and weapons inspections and give the green light to invade Iraq?

Although Congress authorized the use of military action, as big a mistake as that proofed to be, they did so only as a last result. So the crucial questions are: "When did Bush decide to go to war?" and "Had Bush made a convincing case for war?"

Read on and be your own judge.

***

How the US Set a Course for War with Iraq

By Quentin Peel, Robert Graham, James Harding and Judy Dempsey
Financial Times
May 26, 2003

In the first week of January, when most of the Paris elite was still on the ski slopes, a top French diplomat delivered a blunt warning to his boss at the foreign ministry in the Quai d'Orsay. Gérard Araud, director of strategic affairs and security, told Dominique de Villepin that the US administration was absolutely intent on going to war in Iraq. "We seem to be acting as though we believe the train has not left the station," he told the foreign minister. "In fact, it has already departed. All we are doing is lying down on the tracks in front of it." France, he added, must choose between finding a diplomatic way of supporting the inevitable war and preparing for outright opposition.

Mr Araud, a close observer of Washington politics, sounded his alarm just three days after George W. Bush had addressed US troops preparing to leave for the Gulf from their base at Fort Hood, Texas. "We are ready," the president declared, in the ringing tones of a leader all set for war. The realisation that war in Iraq was inevitable was not universally shared in Europe. In London that week, Jack Straw, the British foreign secretary, declared that the odds were 60 to 40 in favour of a peaceful diplomatic solution. In Berlin, the German government was still clinging to the hope that the process of weapons inspections launched by the United Nations Security Council in November would avert any need for military action. Within days of the meeting at the Quai d'Orsay, however, the government in Paris started to move.

On January 9, Mr de Villepin sent a letter to his US counterpart Colin Powell, the secretary of state. "Cher Colin," he wrote in his capacity as chairman of the UN Security Council for the month of January (see below). It was the diplomatic equivalent of a warning shot. The next day, January 10, Mr de Villepin started a round of telephone calls to his fellow foreign ministers, proposing a full-scale ministerial meeting of the Security Council that month. It would not be about Iraq, he said. That might be too divisive. It would be on terrorism: the one subject that might preserve the fragile unity of the international community.

At almost the same time, President Jacques Chirac ordered Maurice Gourdault-Montagne, his personal diplomatic adviser, to fly to Washington to see Condoleezza Rice, Mr Bush's national security adviser, to find out what was up in the US capital. Their meeting took place on January 13, over lunch on the mahogany table in Ms Rice's neat, net-curtained office at the front of the West Wing of the White House. Jean-David Levitte, the French ambassador, and Steve Hadley, Ms Rice's number two, were present.

Mr Gourdault-Montagne - known by his Hollywood-style initials MGM in the corridors of the French bureaucracy - had come with three arguments cautioning against any rush to war. Courteous but firm, he warned that such action might, in the view of his president, destabilise other Arab governments in the region. War would spur recruitment to al-Qaeda. And there was still no evidence to link al-Qaeda to Baghdad. His concerns were bluntly dismissed. "They got the reply: boom, boom, boom," a senior French diplomat recalls. "Everything was impossible. The preparations for war must proceed. "The message from Condi Rice was absolutely clear. The US had decided that military action was necessary to resolve the Iraqi crisis and the only thing that would stop it was the fall, or departure, of Saddam Hussein."

Mr Gourdault-Montagne also met Paul Wolfowitz, deputy defence secretary at the Pentagon and the leading advocate of military intervention to overthrow Mr Hussein. He learnt that the "window of opportunity" for invasion was open until mid-March, when summer temperatures would make desert warfare well-nigh impossible. The message went straight back to Paris and galvanised French government thinking. "We were the first to realise and say publicly that things were changing very fast in Washington," says Mr de Villepin, a close confidant of the president. "They were talking less of proliferation and weapons of mass destruction and more of terrorism and regime change." The meeting he planned at the UN Security Council was set for January 20, one week after the White House encounter. It was Martin Luther King Day - not a good day for Mr Powell. Like all black American politicians, he had a string of speaking engagements planned for the occasion. But he cancelled them to come to New York. The French foreign minister and the US secretary of state met the night before, in Mr de Villepin's suite at the Waldorf Astoria on Park Lane. It was a perfectly friendly exchange, although the Frenchman did express his concern at the direction of US policy.

Mr de Villepin, however, noticed one thing: Mr Powell was using exactly the same language and arguments as had Ms Rice, a week before. "It was then I understood that the die was cast. I understood that the pressure of the administration was too strong. Diplomacy was no longer relevant . . . I realised that those who wanted to make war had a free hand." January 20 has gone down in history as the day of the "diplomatic ambush", when the Frenchman caught his American counterpart unawares with a passionate public assault on precipitate military action in Iraq.

It all happened after the Security Council meeting ended. First Mr Powell spoke to the press outside the chamber and left for lunch at the French residence on Park Avenue. Mr de Villepin, as chairman, had to wait for the journalists to arrive for his formal press conference. He used the occasion to condemn what he saw as a rush to war. "We will not associate ourselves with military intervention that is not supported by the international community," he said. "Military intervention would be the worst possible solution." Richard Armitage, Mr Powell's deputy, remembers the secretary of state's reaction at lunch: "He was very unamused . . . When he's unamused, he gets pretty cold . . . He puts the eyes on you and there is no doubt when his jaws are jacked. It's not a pretty sight."

"He felt betrayed," according to another senior State Department official. "I don't know if de Villepin meant to double-cross him, or that's just the way it happened." Mr de Villepin denies any malign intent. "There was no ambush," he says. "I did not mention the word 'Iraq' once in my speech [in the Council]. It was only at a press conference afterwards that I discussed Iraq in reply to a very aggressive question. I said . . . nothing at this time justifies the resort to force. "This statement was turned round and used by the [US] administration to justify its position, which had shifted to the war option."

Whatever the interpretation, the damage was done: Mr de Villepin's outburst was splashed all over the world press and TV screens. It was the moment when the differences between France and the US over Iraq became inescapable. "From then on things became really polarised," says a British official in Downing Street. "The Americans were very cross and the French were digging in." In fact, White House insiders agree that the French analysis is close to the truth. The "internal moment" when the US president and his closest aides decided that military action was inevitable had come some four weeks before MGM's trip to Washington - in mid-December. That was when Mr Bush was briefed on the contents of Mr Hussein's 12,000-page declaration responding to the charges of possessing, or attempting to produce, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. The president's advisers said it was "not even a credible document". Mr Hussein, they concluded, had made a "strategic decision" not to co-operate.

"There was a feeling that the White House was being mocked," says one person who worked closely with the National Security Council during those days after the declaration was delivered on December 8. "A tinpot dictator was mocking the president. It provoked a sense of anger inside the White House. After that point, there was no prospect of a diplomatic solution." There were many in the president's entourage who had always expected to reach that conclusion. They had argued against sending any UN inspectors back to Iraq. Indeed, vice-president Dick Cheney had denounced the idea four months earlier. "Saddam has perfected the game of cheat and retreat and is very skilled in the art of denial and deception," he told the National Convention of Foreign War Veterans on August 26. "A return of inspectors would provide no assurance whatsoever of his compliance with UN resolutions."

Mr Cheney was a clear hawk on Iraq. But he had been forced on the defensive by sharp criticism from senior members of the first Bush administration, such as Brent Scowcroft, Ms Rice's former boss as national security adviser, and James Baker, the former secretary of state. The compromise presented by Mr Powell, and thrashed out through the summer months, was to seek UN backing for action. Mr Bush had returned from his summer break on the family ranch in Crawford, Texas, convinced of the need to move on Iraq. He was also committed to "regime change" in Baghdad, as demanded by the US Congress. But he agreed to tackle Iraq through the UN.

When Tony Blair, the British prime minister, flew in for an informal summit at Camp David on September 7, the battle for the president's ear was as good as won. Mr Cheney attended the meeting but did not utter a word throughout. "By the time we got there, Mr Bush was predisposed to go the UN route," according to a senior Downing Street official. Mr Blair warned the president that if Saddam Hussein said Yes to all the demands of the weapons inspectors, he might have to stop short of outright regime change. But "neither of them thought Saddam was intelligent enough to say that". Even France agreed at the time. "None of us expected Saddam Hussein to behave like Nelson Mandela," says one French ambassador. And everyone could live with the conclusion: if the Iraqi dictator failed to co-operate, the consequences would be precisely the military action Mr Cheney favoured.

By giving the UN a last chance to "prove its credibility", the US president was papering over the cracks in his administration. He was also responding to electoral pressures. His political advisers were telling him that voters in the November mid-term congressional elections were keen to see UN support for US policy. But even as Mr Bush prepared for his big speech to the general assembly on September 12, Mr Chirac got his word in first. In an interview with The New York Times on September 8, he proposed a compromise to head off the "automaticity" of war. There should be not one resolution in the Security Council, he suggested, but two.

The outline of a compromise was there, even if it took eight weeks of hard diplomatic slogging to negotiate the final wording of Resolution 1441. The British claimed the credit for getting Mr Bush to the UN (although Mr Powell did all the spadework). It was the French who ensured that the resolution was passed unanimously - to the surprise of both Washington and London. In the closing days, Mr Chirac spent half an hour on the telephone to Bashir Assad, the young Syrian president, to win his vote. But even as the UN diplomats were locked into drafting detail, important political changes were under way in Europe that would make it ever more difficult to bridge the transatlantic divide. As Mr Bush stepped up to speak at the UN general assembly, the issue of war in Iraq had become a big topic in Germany's general election campaign. It was a vital moment.

Faced with overwhelming popular opposition to war, Chancellor Gerhard Schröder said Germany would not back US action - even if it had UN approval. He called it a "military adventure". Washington condemned his words as cynical electioneering. More importantly, the criticism was taken personally by Mr Bush. According to his closest aides, the US president believes he had been given a direct assurance by Mr Schröder, in a private conversation when they met in Berlin in May, that the chancellor would not exploit the Iraq issue in his campaign. To this day, Mr Bush has not forgiven the German leader. "The president believes the character of a person is known by whether he keeps his word," a senior White House official says.

Ms Rice said relations had been "poisoned". Yet German pacifism reinforced the anti-war movement across the continent. It also alerted Mr Chirac that he would not be alone if he fought for a diplomatic solution. But there were mutual suspicions. "The general expectation was that after the elections, the Germans would fall into line [with the US]," a senior German government official says. "The French thought we would bow to US pressure and we thought the French would do much the same. "After the German elections [on September 22] it took about 10 days for Mr Chirac to realise that Mr Schröder was standing by his position. That is when the French position started to harden."

The French president had himself just been re-elected by a landslide, thanks to the collapse of the Socialist party and a run-off against the far-right Jean-Marie Le Pen of the Front National. For the first time in five years, he had a government of his centre-right supporter and he was determined to exploit his room for manoeuvre, at home and abroad. Mr Chirac and Mr Schröder had never hit it off personally. Both opportunists, they have little politically in common. Yet they had a special reason to make it up. The 30th anniversary of the Elysée treaty, which established the Franco-German partnership at the heart of the EU, was set to be celebrated on January 22.

The result was that top civil servants in Berlin and Paris spent months working far more closely together on common policies than they were used to doing. The first evidence emerged at the Brussels EU summit in October, when Mr Chirac and Mr Schröder unveiled an agreement on financing farm policy - to the consternation of Mr Blair. "London was taken completely by surprise," says an official in the German chancellery. "But we were talking all the time. We were co-operating on other issues at the [EU constitutional] convention. The Elysée celebrations were an important signal. Chirac realised he had to get on with Schröder." In Moscow, Vladimir Putin was feeling unloved. He, too, was doubtful about the wisdom of any war in Iraq. But the US assumed that in the end he would come round. His closest officials were indicating that it was largely a matter of money - making sure Russian loans to Iraq were honoured and Russian oil company contracts would survive.

Washington was wrong. At least three more factors were in play: fear of excessive US unilateralism; resentment at the US failure to reward Russia's support since the terrorist attacks of September 11 2001; and domestic politics, with Mr Putin determined to deny any ammunition to his nationalist and Communist opponents. Slowly but surely, Russia was moving into the same position as France and Germany. Sergei Prikhodko, Mr Putin's top foreign affairs adviser, emphasises the first. "It was a matter of principle. We were not cobbling together any kind of bloc. We were not acting against anybody. It was a coincidence that our points of view coincided with France and Germany on Iraq." Senior US officials admit they thought commercial interests played a big role. "They put tremendous emphasis on their economic interests being paramount," says one. "But as the situation escalated in the first months of 2003, the economic arguments receded."

For a brief moment, after Resolution 1441 was agreed in the Security Council on November 8, there was a feeling that perhaps, after all, war might be avoided. If it were inevitable, even the doubters might be involved. France was already well involved in negotiating possible participation with its own troops. Indeed, during the negotiations in the UN, France agreed that Mr Hussein would probably fail to co-operate with UN inspectors. War was likely. So in December a senior French liaison officer visited General Tommy Franks' headquarters in Tampa, Florida, to discuss fielding at least 15,000 soldiers as part of an allied force. As late as January 7, Mr Chirac told his armed forces chiefs to be ready "for any eventuality". That was the day after Mr de Villepin's meeting in the ministry. In the next three weeks, the French president dug in against any early action. He knew now that he could rely on Mr Schröder. He also had strong indications of sympathy from Mr Putin. Popular feeling in Europe was running strongly against any US-led action.

Mr Chirac made his move on January 22, the day of the Elysée treaty celebrations. Standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Mr Schröder he declared: "War is always an admission of defeat ... the worst of solutions. Hence everything must be done to avoid it." He implied it was a common European policy, although it was not. It was a fateful day. In Brussels, France, Germany and Belgium blocked a US-led initiative to give Nato support to Turkey in the event of Iraqi retaliation. The next day in Washington, Donald Rumsfeld, the blunt-spoken US defence secretary, dismissed the fears of "old" Europe. "The centre of gravity is moving east," he said. The stage was set for Europe to split, with a helping hand from the US.

Additional reporting by Mark Turner, James Blitz and Andrew Jack

You can tell how intelligent people are by listening to what they say. Some republicans, such as Jean Schmidt are not intellectually gifted at all.

Murtha should be awarded the DEMOCRATIC Medal of Freedom or something!

testing, one, two,

Amen and Amen, Dawn!

He definitely should be given more support from members of his own party. Kerry sent an email asking us to write letters and call in to talk radio, supporting Murtha--saying don't let them Swift-Boat him. I'll give him credit for that much.

We need an Illinois blog, Dawnie. Will you have time to help us if we need it? Pretty much count on us needing lots of help...

Fade

I've written two such letters. One to his website (finally) and another to the 30 something democrats (as a suggestion for one of their cspan debates)

I have to agree fade. I don't think the party has turned their collective backs on him, but they didn't jump to the forefront to defend him, agree with him or anything. I think they believe it could be political suicide to back him maybe, what's your opinion on why they seem to be turning backs on Murtha?

Actually FADE - I work on websites (which include blogs sometimes) and I myself have a message board, not blog, as I don't have much traffic.

Your group, unless extremely chatty, might do better with a board?

just email me from my site I won't take up space here with it - no problemo!

Well, there was an article in the paper this morning, and I'll go look for it. One of the consultants think our "branding" is too weak in the "get our war on" department, so we need to leave that door open for opportunity later.

I think it's bullsh*t to play that "keep your options open" game, and leave us vulnerable in the "they don't have a plan" department. I'll go find the article...bbiaf (be back in a flash)

Colbert is perfect. He portrays an egomaniac, just like Daffy.

Posted by WilliamSchubert on November 20, 2005 at 01:56 PM

Link from the LA Times

Good to see you all. I have chores to do, but my short attention span will surely bring me back soon.

bbl

He looks like a mini-Clark Kent doll

cya Fade! I understand about that attention span thingy!! lol

{{fade's}} hot link from 2:03

LA TIMES

and he asks, "will you still call me Superman?"

lolol j/k

Colbert actually REMINDS me of Daffy. Kind of an egomaniac, but not an evil guy. Crazy and on the wrong side sometimes, but only enough to make it obvious which side is right.

Stewart can outsmart people, just like bugs. I can see him saying "What's up doc", and pulling out a carrot, especially during an O'Reilly interview.

O'Reilly, like Fudd, lets his anger get the best of him. Makes it easy to outthink him.

Patrick have you ever met anyone from here?

I was thinking about some old arguement some of the yakkers in here were having the other day..... how do any of us know if the others is who they claim?

I mean really?

Unless we've actually spoken with them or something.

Or if they have their own personal website with their goings on that can be followed w/pics etc. I have met many people from on line none from here. I would say 50 percent of the time it was an ok experience. The other 50 was awful!

et vous?

Ok Will when you put it like that I agree about Bugs! Jon is smarter than the aaaaverage bunnywabbit!

is are MAN my english is poor today.... pardon

Hannity would be Yosemite Sam

Dawn, I don't have a blog, although someone on here once suggested that I start one. (WHY? I'm not that interesting).

Also, I'm 'puter uh-litt-uh-ritt, and can't post pics or even do more than what little I can do.

I HAVE come a long way since last February, when I finally decided that I have lurked long enough. You and Shakin the Tree got me on this Site, and Pam taught me how to do Paragraphs, and both of the Williams taught me how to link, (until they changed that TWICE), and Amanda taught me HREF stuff.

So, Maybe I've met folks on here, maybe not. I go to kenosha and Mkee a lot, so I may have met Joan at some point, but maybe not. Haven't been to St. Louis in 25 years, so paige & fade are out of the Q. Haven't been in Sarasota since 1975, and you weren't even born then.

So the odds of meeting someone in Boston in 1982 and having a connection now are slim.

My blogage buddies.

www.oif3dell.blogspot.com

DUDE

I graduated HS in 74! (but you know how old I am)

You've actually MET Joan? That should help Domingo feel less paranoid. I get that way too though.

I guess click my name.. I tried that other link and of course it didn't work.

Posted by DeLLBerto on November 20, 2005 at 02:28 PM

page not found (was that your point?) LOL

Posted by Dawnelle on November 20, 2005 at 02:32 PM

Try that other one, with my name.. I don't know what I'm doing.

Jez Dell love your optimism of 06! Holy cow!

Now I hope even MORE that the DEMS take it in 06!

No, I have never met Joan. I just go to Kenosha and Milwaukee a lot, so a chance encounter MAY have happened, but not in any context having to do with this site. Joan said she lives about 1 mile from one of my favorite restaurants, and since I go there several times a year, we may have been standing next to each other, and not known it.

The Dems better take whatever we can in 2006. Who knows where it could lead?? If it's proven Bush lied about Iraq and we have a majority in 2006.. can we say impeachment. I sure hope we take '06 and take it big.

Loved Sparta, LaCrosse and the Dells but thought Milwaukee was a dump!

That was in um? 78?79? I'm sure it's changed.

Again I'll say confused - so Hadley is Woodward's source?

This thing just seems so disgustingly INBRED to me!

Aww, I loved Mkee in the 70's precisely because it was frozen in time circa 1954. Even the busses were those old ones. The "Modernization" trip they went on about 15-20 years ago tore down a lot of funky old buildings, and replaced them with a lot of cartoonish "Modern" ones, which look dated 10 years later.

Still a cool town, though.

I spent a lot of time partying in Sparta, Tomah and LaCrosse. LaCrosse's night life is insane. It's a college town and I think all the students are alkys. The bars were all to crowded for me, so I'd find the least crowded one and have a "canned supper."

As I was in my young 20's that makes sense now why I have that impression of it being old and dirty!

Not many 20-something's appreciate old outdated architecture although I did adore the beauty of the OLDER parts preserved in Savannah's Riverfront district.

Maybe the garbage people were on strike that weekend?

I love Madison, WI

Posted by DeLLBerto on November 20, 2005 at 02:55 PM

TOMAH!!! Yes, we didn't have a dentist at Ft. McCoy that summer so I had to go to TOMAH for my fillings!! LOL Thanks for the memory! It was a little dinky town back then and yes LaCrosse at that time was rated the highest in the nation for VD at that time!!! lolol

Must have been the drunks! I was military so it was fun but NOT like college, I'm sure!

Never made it to Madison that summer but did about kill myself skiing the Black River! (lots of sunken bolders just under the surface, turns out)ugh!

boulders - shoot

ok I'm babbling on two threads..... time for a break! (from the caffeine!) LOL I can't spell, or talk straight I'm too hyper!

bbl HUGS!

I was at Ft. McCoy too, but had a lot of fun. I got a filling in Tomah myself... ouch ouch ouch. I think the dentist used the cheapest material he could find because it fell out already and it was a year ago. I got all 4 wisdom teeth pulled out in LaCrosse. That dentist was good. I recovered the next day.

I think Hannity is the ChickenHawk.

La Crosse..."Old Style"

Yummm. Need I say more?

I drank "spotted cow." I think it's made by New Glarus brewery. But I enjoy Old Style, it's what my father in law drinks.

New Glarus makes some good stuff. There is a store in Milwaukee that sells ALL the Wisconsin Breweries' stuff, even micro-brews. You can pick and choose your own "Mix a Six" pack, and have 1 from any brewery you want, or 2 or all 6.

It's like flights of wine, in that respect.

That's so bizarre DELL - small world indeed!

For FLA DEMS only (lengthy email)

US SENATOR BARACK OBAMA TO KEYNOTE
FLORIDA DEMOCRATIC PARTY STATE CONFERENCE

At the invitation of Senator Bill Nelson and Florida Democratic Party Chair
Karen Thurman, United States

Senator Barack Obama will be the keynote speaker for the 2005 Florida Democratic
Party Conference. Senator Obama will speak to delegates at the conference's
Saturday dinner event on December 10, 2005.

"I am quite pleased that my colleague Senator Barack Obama will join me to
deliver our message about

changing the way business is done in Tallahassee and Washington DC by putting
the needs of Floridians first

and offering a better deal for working families," said Senator Bill Nelson.

"I am proud to host one of the most diverse rosters of national speakers to ever
address a Florida

Democratic Conference," said Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman.
"These fine Democrats are all proven winners in competitive red states and
understand how to galvanize the communities in urban and rural
areas that are the keys to our success in winning the 2006 elections."

With Senator Obama now confirmed, the speaking schedule by key national
figures is as follows:

DNC Chair Howard Dean, House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer: Friday Welcome
Reception, 7PM

Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack: Saturday Breakfast, 7:30 AM
Hon. John Edwards: Saturday Lunch, 12:30 PM
Senator Barack Obama: Saturday Dinner, 8:00 PM
Virginia Governor Mark Warner: Sunday Brunch, 9:30 AM

Tickets for the meal events can be purchased at www.fladems.com, or by calling
the Party at 850-222-3411.

Saturday's General Session will include remarks from United States Senator Bill
Nelson, as well as gubernatorial candidates: Congressman Jim Davis and State
Senator Rod Smith. Alex Sink, candidate for Chief

Financial Officer, Sen. Skip Campbell, candidate for Attorney General, key
leaders of the Democratic state

legislative delegation and Democratic members of the congressional delegation
will also address the conference.

In addition, Congressmen John Lewis, Barney Frank, and Luis Gutierrez will also
address Saturday's general session

For more information about the schedule or these speakers, please visit
www.fladems.com or contact Mario

Zervigon, (850) 222-3411 or mzervigon@fladems.com

Will

The chickenhawk would be RUSH don't cha think? All puffed up like he is when really he's such a LITTLE man?

dualling (dualing) Chickenhawks - they both need to have their butts kicked by a REAL man! Preferably a Soldier or Marine! NOW indeed I must go. But I'll be back tonight! Be scared, be very scared!

haha. ;-)

Dawn!! Say hello to my Senator for me, hope you get to see him, if you think he's terrific on the tube he will blow you away in person!

Oh, good afternoon Dems!

Funny you should mention Obama, Dawn. I was going to post this article about EVERYBODY from Warren Buffet to Oprah to Spielberg to Soros backing Barak.

OMAHA -- Warren Buffett sits on the edge of a soft brown sofa, closely watching as Barack Obama navigates the well-appointed living room. He moves his square glasses closer to his face, unfolds his arms and springs to his feet when the time comes to welcome his guest to Nebraska.

"There he is," Buffett says with a wide grin, pulling Obama toward him with a hearty handshake. "You're the hottest ticket in town today."

The sage of money and finance, America's second-richest man, seldom becomes invested in politicians. But he has made an exception for the junior senator from Illinois, which is precisely why Obama has arrived here on a frosty fall morning, without an overcoat or an entourage.

Obama's national appeal rallies an army of backers

B'Ye, {{DAWN}}

Hi, {{paige}}

So this is where you all went.

I don't think most Dems are turning their backs on Murtha. But if we really rally around him, they will do the old Michael Moore number of him. So let him work independent of the usual Dem spokespersons.

He has credibility because he made his decision to speak up as a traditional military hawk. When he says he thinks the troops are getting the short end of the stick and he's worried about the long-term effects on the military establishment, it is a powerful message.

We can respect him and defend him against Roviaran insults, but we don't have to coddle him. He's been around the block a few times and knows how to handle himself --- even with these Republican serpents. The more they attack him, the more the MSM will cover his concerns about this bogus Iraqi Bush venture.

I'd personally like to see more of Cheney spouting off his hate and venom. He really undermines everything Rove trys to do to bolster Bush's sagging poll numbers. And that in turn, scares the shit out of the Congressional Republicans who make more mistakes on the House and Senate floors.

I was thinking about some old arguement some of the yakkers in here were having the other day..... how do any of us know if the others is who they claim?

I mean really?

Unless we've actually spoken with them or something.

Posted by Dawnelle on November 20, 2005 at 02:14 PM

I wouldn't be so plain & simple if I could make believe. ;)

Hey DPD! great article on Obama, he is indeed someone special and imo a real leader that we can look to for a bright future. It's time to get rid of politicians who forgot they were elected by the people, for the people, NOT the special interests. I don't think Obama will ever lose the proper perspective and I hope he runs for President soon.

Posted by Bleujae on November 20, 2005 at 03:41 PM

My dear, you could never be plain and simple. Just the fact that you're here attests to that. :-)

I agree, {{Butters}}
I don't REALLY dance nekkid. I just don't dance.

;) (It was a sop to Matthew McConnahay being the sexiest man alive for the second time.)

hello {{everyone}}

milwaukee, a dump? my home sweet beer city? this thread is so midwestern, i can hear the hard consonants crisply...paige, it's good to see you on the blog, again.

the toy drive party was a smashing success--and raymond (gary) was very enthusiastic about hosting parties for us. if we have a larger crowd, drinkin'--he'll throw in appetizers for free.

Hey fade, good to see you! I'm multitasking with chatting with panicked students (lab report due tomorrow), seeing my friends here and grading papers all possible because my daughter is sleeping. :-)

Our get together went well, I'm looking forward to our December meetup. Gary is a hoot, a good guy and solid Dem supporter.

{{{paige}}} {{{DPD}}}

I dance, in jammies. ;)

Thanks, Dawnblogger, for helping out us dialups.

I was just taking a quick break. Time to get the laundry off the line then to my studies.

BBL

Posted by DPD on November 20, 2005 at 03:48 PM

I'll take Matthew McConnahay as sexiest man alive anytime, watched "Sahara" a couple of weeks ago and ooooh, baby, made my old middle aged heart go pitter pat. :-)

{{jacque}}

missed ya again! maybe later...

i think FITZ is the sexiest man alive...definitely!

Carolina 3

DA BEARS 13

6 in a row, DeLL

next time some bonehead comes in here quoting democrats on saddam hussein from years ago, let's remind them of what colin powell and condi said in 2001 before 9/11:

"(Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."

~Secretary of State Colin Powell, statement made on February 24, 2001, while meeting at Cairo's Ittihadiya Palace with Egyptian Foreign Minister Amr Moussa. Asked about the sanctions placed on Iraq, which were then under review at the Security Council, Powell said the measures were working.
__________________________________________

"But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."

~Condoleezza Rice, July 29, 2001, CNN's Late Edition

___________________________________________

not to mention Dickie boy 5 days after 9/11:

"The focus is over here on al-Qaida and the most recent events in New York. Saddam Hussein's bottled up…"

[Interviewer: Do we have any evidence linking Saddam Hussein or Iraqis to [the 9/11 terrorist attacks?]]

"No."

~Dick Cheney, NBC's Meet the Press, Sept. 16, 2001

Paul posted a link to the beeeotch Schmidt if you want to let her know whatcha think...he was much more professional in his approach...not a good paraphrase

gregg reported that biden may have reunited with his long lost cojones...i will reserve judgement to determine if it's just a hormone shot or the real deal...

finally, YES OBAMA RAWKS and the roving smear campaign will be taking aim at the greatest threat to democratic cerebral ho-hum boring politics since the Kennedy brothers...Happy Birthday-- Robert!

{{Jenny}} I got your number..

867-5309
(8-6-7-5-3 0H -NIE EE EYE ENN)

Way to go on Rapid Response, Jen! i am so sick of their lies, but they do stick to the script and together. Nice to sprinkle in a little truth--wish the punditry would do the same. They're all too entwined to remember we, the people.

you sure do {{DPD}} :D

{{{Jen}}} how are you?? Thanks DPD, I'm instantly back in high school with that song stuck in my head!

paige,

i honestly don't know who matthew mc is...i'll have to google him...there's definitely a little something missing from my life, i see...

thx Fade, just was reading that in Franken's new one and decided it would come in handy in the future. errands, bbl

paige,

the only film i've seen him in was "a time to kill"--and he was sexy in that one...i've got to watch Outfoxed and the Walmart movie before i see any others...hardly ever sit still long enough to do a movie.

speaking of, we have a party at work tomorrow, so i'm going to make a cake...
bbl

{{{Paige}}}, i'm fine, been largely not here much b/c my laptop has been in the shop since late Sept. but it comes back next week they say. Hope you've been well, hope I catch you again soon! Gotta run!

Two years ago, when Plame’s identity was first revealed, Hadley was Condoleezza Rice’s deputy at the NSC."

Dawn, the same old names on the WHIG list just keep on popping up in context to this leak. And they all seemed to have been on that Air Force One flight to Africa. "Inbred" and "embedded" explains a lot of why grand juries have had to be called into this investigation to sort out the liars from the traitors.

Why does Woodward think he should be privy to national security material without a clearance -- and bandy it around as "gossip" -- then conveniently forget about it? What else has he forgotten?

Or can't remember --- until the book is written and the advance spent? I think he knows plenty.

Here's the Sexy Guy's Mug Shot.

It seems he likes to smoke pot and get nekkid and play bongos.
SO, What's wrong with THAT?

Sexy Man In Jail

bye fade, bye Jen!

gotta go, daughter is up from nap, bbl.

Hi {{DPD}}

So, yeah, what IS wrong with that?

Hi Sandy,

Steven Hadley was rumoured to be the source for "Plan of Attack". Somebody spoon fed him information, since there were so many first hand accounts. I never bought that it was Powell, which was another name tossed about in that regard. I always thought it was Hadley.

Now, it looks like he's the guy on this new leak. I'd love to see Woodwards smarmy little grin wiped off his little ivy league repug face. Bernstein was the balls in that operation while the old navy felt sang to mr. ww....

gossip, indeed. they get so full of themselves, don't they?

Rush is Yosemite Sam. Sorry about these drive bys, I am cleaning and buying stuff to clean.

"Consarn Liberals, Sazz a frazz a shazz um."

well uh, will, i uh heah you choppin' but i uh doan see no chips a flyin'..

foghorn leghorn...sexiest rooster alive

cleaning, eh? i should be since i only have my bathroom to finish...there's a cake in the oven, and it's starting to smell very nice...

i love sunday--how about you?

and i love Henery Hawk

Sorry I was gone for a while. I was sending an e-mail to the local FOX station complaining about their mis-stating what Murtha said (he called for an immediate withdrawal...President won't go for the Democrats 'Cut and Run" strategy..." you know, that kind of stuff)

I ALSO said that I will file a license challenge with the FCC. I'm going Downtown soon, and I know where WFLD is, and can file my complaint there, and the station is only a few blocks from Federal Plaza, so my Christmas Shopping trip will be for everyone.

If you want to complain to Fox32, Chicago, use any zip code starting with 606, 603, 601, or 608. You don't need to post a house address, and I only put in my "E" addy so I can see if I get a response.

OOPS, 605 works too, and THAT'S the rich part of DuPage.

wow, thank you for the lovely Christmas gift, dpd.

i'll be delighted to let them know what i think about them twisting the truth...wish i could do a little twisting myself...

and thanx for the zipcodes, too

glad to see you here, cuz i was talking to myself on the blog and in my room...too scary to contemplate

i did it, dpd. that zip code worked...thanx--again

c-span 2 was showing something that i thought looked interesting, about the media and twenty ways they misrepresent the truth about...so it turns out to be the freakin' Heritage Society propaganda...it's sickening how they have skewed the center and now John Birchers have a place at the table...

Blob Woodward went to the same HS as John Belushi.

Wheaton, IL. The home of Wheaton College, and the Billy Graham Institute for Tax Evasion Using God, Inc, (LLP)

An Off-Shore conglomerate

Ok I'm back fade. I said Shawn was the chicken hawk because shawn thinks he is "bigger" than he is. I didn't want Rush to be Foghorn Leghorn, because for all his bluster, Foghorn Leghorn is a decent person (rooster?) underneath, whereas if you look beyond all of Rush's bluster, you get a giant anal cyst in a NAZI package.

Corruption Inquiry Threatens to Ensnare Lawmakers
By Philip Shenon
The New York Times

Washington - The Justice Department has signaled for the first time in recent weeks that prominent members of Congress could be swept up in the corruption investigation of Jack Abramoff, the former Republican superlobbyist who diverted some of his tens of millions of dollars in fees to provide lavish travel, meals and campaign contributions to the lawmakers whose help he needed most.

Mr. Abramoff, who is under indictment in a separate bank-fraud case in Florida, has not been charged by the federal grand jury here. But Mr. Scanlon's lawyer says he has agreed to plead guilty and cooperate in the investigation, suggesting that Mr. Abramoff's day in court in Washington is only a matter of time.

Scholars who specialize in the history and operations of Congress say that given the brazenness of Mr. Abramoff's lobbying efforts, as measured by the huge fees he charged clients and the extravagant gifts he showered on friends on Capitol Hill, almost all of them Republicans, the investigation could end up costing several lawmakers their careers, if not their freedom.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/112005A.shtml

Looking for a Hostess gift for Thanksgiving, or Christmas gift?

Fort Worth, Texas - After spending scorching August days with hundreds of war protesters at her makeshift camp near President Bush's Crawford ranch, Cindy Sheehan slipped away each night to her tent or RV for a few quiet moments on her laptop.

Now those journal entries are in her book, "Not One More Mother's Child," to be released Wednesday. The paperback also contains some of her speeches to peace groups earlier this year, letters to politicians and writings since leaving Crawford.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/112005G.shtml

As for loving Sunday, I will steal your quote:

i uh heah you choppin' but i uh doan see no chips a flyin

I cleaned my bedroom and my upstairs bathroom yesterday, and today I am working on the downstairs bathroom and the kitchen. I have no idea when I will get to the livingroom and my office. I had two women from Working America come and visit, and I was totally embarassed by the condition of my living room. But I keep putting it off till last, because once it is done, I am dome cleaning for another six months or so.. ;)

It is about time! No torture by the US in OUR names!

US must give independent UN experts full access to Guantánamo

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/16617.shtml

This serves these Drs right. the AMA and Drs all voted for Bush, because he said he was all for capping Malpracice claims! Now they get their little payback.

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is headed for a clash with the nation's doctors over a federal plan to cut their Medicare fees by 4.4 percent next year, even as the government tries to measure the quality of care they provide.

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_3235062

if you look beyond all of Rush's bluster, you get a giant anal cyst in a NAZI package.

Posted by WilliamSchubert on November 20, 2005 at 06:48 PM

well, that's some vivid imagery, Schube. you are truly gifted...now that your semi-annual cleaning is done, don't you feel accomplished?

finished my chores, the cake turned out spectacularly--hope it makes it to the office...it 's kinda hard to resist...

almost bubble time...

Saw this disturbing one on Raw Story:

British-trained police operating in Basra have tortured at least two civilians to death with electric drills, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.

Cool website on Working in America, by an offshoot of AFL-CIO. You can find out which companies in your area outsourced jobs, who has OSHA violations and other relevant information for workers. Good BushWatch link on the AFLCIO's site, too, which links directly from there.

i uh heah you choppin' but i uh doan see no chips a flyin

Posted by WilliamSchubert on November 20, 2005 at 06:58 PM

Well according to QT WATCHES THE BLOGS which is printed every Sunday, George owes "intellectual cpoyrights" money to a cartoon character.

From Sundays QT Column in the Sun-Times:

Say it ain't so

Language Log, itre.cis.upenn .edu/?183-142?myl/languagelog, in a discussion of "disfluency" in modern politicians, precisely quotes an answer from President Bush at a press conference last week in Tokyo:

"Obviously, the extent to which uh the Japanese government wants to give reconstruction money to Iraq is up to the Japanese government, and to- to the- and I- as to the- the- the uh deployment of troops, it's up to- it's up to the government, 'swhat happens in democracies -- government makes decisions that uh that uh that they're uh capable of living with, and that's that's what we said, w'said, do the best you can do; make up your own mind, it's your decision, not mine."

Please don't do that again, Language Log.

Now isn't THAT more succinct than W's explaination of "Tribal Sovereignity"?

The Sunday "QT WATCHES THE BLOGS" COLUMN

Ok, so I get to Buca di Beppo to pick up a Macaroni Rosa, right? And I hand the girl my credit card, and she says "Do you have any ID?" I say, "Of course", and produce my ID. I then say, "You guys should know me by now, I come in here all the time." The girl responds, "I am new here, and anyway it is for your protection really. It's too bad we have to do this, but this is the way the world is."

I leave, and all the way home I am thinking that the place is decorated like a mid 20th century mobsters hangout, and this little pipsqueak is talking about my "PROTECTION"?

1) Back in my day, people STAYED at Italian Restaurants long enough to know who their customers were.

2) I cannot see any pipsqueak asking Nicky the Nose or Sammy the Slasher or Tommy Gun Tony for thier ID. Nope, I just can't see it.

3) maybe if the lesson you learn from THIS administration was something other than "Crime Pays GOOD" (not well, because they ALL have grammar problems) that moral lesson would filter down to the masses too, and you wouldn't have a problem.

4) if it WASN'T me, well let me ask the question. How many instances of people paying for their food with other people's credit cards do they HAVE at buca? Does it come out of Buca's pocket if the card WAS stolen? I just want to know.

Here's your sunday evening chuckle. The Bush and Company photo album.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/agi_t_prop/54599936/in/photostream/

Posted by WilliamSchubert on November 20, 2005 at 07:47 PM

William, read THIS and weep

Fishing For Information...

Never forget Therezin

I think of this every time someone says:

US must give independent UN experts full access to Guantánamo

because what they did at Therezin was clean it up and present it, so people would be fooled.

awwww, thanx dpd. this was on the link you posted and it made me feel so much better...

"Any time you catch yourself thinking that your life might be empty and pointless, just meditate for a minute or two on the concept 'Paris Hilton fan.' "

hey Bill,

I was in a store the other day, charging some Christmas stuff, probably amounting to $60-70, and they asked me for ID.

I handed it to them, but said, "Trust me, If I was using someone else's credit card, I would be over at the Porsche dealer, not here buying petty amounts of merchandise".

Sometimes these people get carried away !

which one was that, foghorn leghorn or porky pig?

heading out. Stacks of books to read, plus bb gave us all a project yesterday, a play he has written and wants critiqued! So good night to go and dig into it.

see you all tomorrow.

Posted by WilliamSchubert on November 20, 2005 at 07:54 PM

the lack of credibility in this administration would make it totally impossible for me to believe any reports that their "official inspections" would produce. it's so clear that abuse and torture were (are) rampant at abu grahib, yet the good military brass polish theirs and kiss the ring...the iraqi people were holding mass demonstrations regarding the issue just this weekend, but we don't even get a glimpse at that story, here...unless you dig...

your inner inner historian and inner creative writer have taken over tonight, schube

Goodnight, {{{Pam}}}

enjoy the reading and thanx for the good stories...

Night Pam.

Fade, Rumsfeld claims the military does things on its own, ignoring the civilian leadership. Does anyone buy that?

HAHAHAHAHA!!

I'm watching the "Simpsons", and Homer is facing yet another child psychologist....

Any way, Homer says something that sounded SO Bush-like

"It's EASY for you to find fault, but it's hard for you to SHUT UP!"

Just like the Pug attack apparatus.

G'Nite, {{PamB}} evenif you ARE a troll

;)

looks like the ball is getting rolling. from salon:

Jewish Group Votes to Oppose Alito

- - - - - - - - - - - -

November 20,2005 | HOUSTON -- The largest branch of North American Judaism voted on Sunday to oppose Samuel Alito's nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court.

More than 2,000 delegates of the Union for Reform Judaism adopted a resolution saying Alito would "shift the ideological balance of the Supreme Court on matters of core concern to the reform movement" on abortion rights, women's rights, civil rights and the scope of federal power.

The vote came at the closing session of the group's biennial convention, which was held in Houston Wednesday through Sunday.

During a debate before the vote, Jeff Wasserstein, a former law clerk for Alito and a self-described liberal Democrat, argued in favor of Alito's nomination, while Elliot Mincberg, vice president of People for the American Way, argued against it.

The Union for Reform Judaism represents about 900 synagogues in North America with an estimated membership of 1.5 million. Of the three major streams of U.S. Judaism -- Orthodox and Conservative are the others -- it is the only one that sanctions gay ordination and supports civil marriage for same-gender couples.

The Senate Judiciary Committee plans confirmation hearings on Alito's nomination in January.

--__

WATCH THE SIMPSONS

It became a "Parody" of he whole Bush Crap.

Sad, but TRUE.

Hey Dere GG

and a Time piece suggests that Democrats are in a good position...

Alito

Does anyone buy that?

Posted by WilliamSchubert on November 20, 2005 at 08:19 PM

Sadly, i guess some do...though i sure as heck don't buy any of their assorted lies, no matter how nicely packaged they are...

i freak out totally whenever i meditate on that whole Special Operations Command--because they're doing the stuff that gets blacklined, redacted and "plausibly denied" later down the line...

ollie north looks like a choir boy compared to some of these mercenary types that now have a home in the military/spook/psy ops central...chilling, i think...cause our 40 Billion dollar intel budget is larger than EVERYONE ELSE'S COMBINED and we still can't stop an attack on the PENTAGON? or know that those docs from Italy were forged? They knew--they set it up. Sure as i'm sittin' here, whoops...there went my colander with the copper coils...sorry

Hey gentlebloggers!! Hey DPD, what's that 6 in a row for da Bears??

Hey, DeLL

Howza dem Pukers doin'?

Hey, Brian...how are you, sir? Packers play tomorrow night...are you ready?

Posted by DPD on November 20, 2005 at 08:46 PM

I feel lucky they didn't get a chance to ruin my Sunday, they play tomorrow. Monday's already stink so if they lose nothing lost... at the rate they are going I should say when they lose.

I'm ready fade, only bad part is I'll be at work, where technically I cannot watch TV, even though I am all alone in an office with a TV that gets ABC. We'll see how far that goes around oh 9:00pm or so.

Oh and no need to call me sir.. goodness gracious, ma'am. ;)

My name is a link to my blog.. not much on there, just fishing a few rants and bragging about my family.

hey dpd,

i met a guy in a bar friday night, while i was waiting for my mom's shrimp order, and he will be working on security and safety on the river...the federal building in St. Louis is dedicating an entire floor to offices for them...they're remodeling now...with all kinds of big screens and high tech goodies...

wonder if he's going to be writing tickets to fishermen? scary

DellBerto,

I checked out your blog this afternoon. You are the exact same age as my son, so i kinda get a kick out of calling you sir.

Posted by fade2bluz on November 20, 2005 at 08:56 PM

LOL.. well then ma'am. I guess you sure told me ;)

fade, log on to the Chicago Tribune. It's FREE and you get access to EVERY Paper they own.

They started a NINE part dissection of the lead up to the War using transcripts of speeches by Bushco, and comparing them to Known FACTS AT THE TIME, and known facts TODAY. It's pretty telling that they call this an "EDITORIAL", not an Opionion Piece.

The FACT that the Pug Party Founders are doing this is telling.

The Trib (Which founded the Pug Party) was the FIRST Paper to call for the resignation of Nixon with a Front Page Editorial titled "Let's Face It, Mr. President..."

This could be the fast end of Bushco.

They cancelled the LTE page, and the Op Ed page and ran a 2 page Editorial spelling out their reasons for this unprecedented act.

I URGE everybody to sign up (it's free) and fact check everything printed.

I KNOW that there are a lot of people on this blog who are MUCH smarter than me.

Please?

"Fade, Rumsfeld claims the military does things on its own, ignoring the civilian leadership. Does anyone buy that?

Posted by WilliamSchubert on November 20, 2005 at 08:19 PM"

I'll buy that. We are a nation of laws and the military is sworn to uphold those that are appropriate for them to enforce...illegal attempts at mis-direction cannot change that. Remember Nixon's Watergate.

i'll have a look dpd

Wilkerson better watch his back:

A former top State Department official said Sunday that Vice President Dick Cheney provided the "philosophical guidance" and "flexibility" that led to the torture of detainees in U.S. facilities.

Schube, I posted that article 15 minutes after it was published, here's the 7:59 update:

Rummy Won't Set Timetable For Iraq, Says Military Commanders Are In Charge

Well, quiet night.. I'm off to bed. Good night everybody!! {{DPD,fade,anyone I missed}}

Actually, fade...

I think Schmidt should watch out

PIE MAN

Later, Yooper
;)

The change in the command climate after 2000 was extremely disturbing. I had never seen the like in all the time I was in the military. We were told that even discussing our Commander-in-chief in a negative way with our friends would be cousidered disloyalty and reflect negatively on NCOER/OERs (annual ratings). We sort of shrugged, at first, and thought that someone had just gotten too eager to please the boss. Then Shinseki got fired. He was a good general, the only problem was he had ethics and wouldn't kiss butt. The only thing I didn't like about him was those stupid black berets were his idea. As soon as I had enough active duty time in, I told them hasta la bye bye. A month after I got my retirement orders in my hands so they couldn't touch me, they instituted stop loss. I've got friends over there, some for the second time, and these are Reservists. I was an Active Guard and Reserve(AGR) soldier, but I've also been Active Army and a drilling Reservist so I know the system. I don't know how my friends feel about things. I don't mention anything about my feelings in my emails to them because I don't want some gung ho jerk to try screwing with them for something I said. In this command climate you can't trust the privacy of emails. I do know they are getting tired and fed up. We have to find an honorable way to bring this mess to a halt without screwing them or the Iraqis over.
As far as I'm concerned Bush is a war criminal.

Posted by DeLLBerto on November 20, 2005 at 08:52 PM

15th Dale Jarrett

While my man, Stewart, won the championship. ;)

Butters, I woulda thunk you'd be a Gordon fan
;)

Goodnight, Brian...sorry that i got so immersed in the news...

have a great week

hi, jacque--goodie that your guy won the race...

dpd, what does that pieman charge? seems you don't assume much liability when you contract out the job...or do you?

DPD,

I like the badass boys. ;)

hi ya, {{{bluz}}}

dpd,

the trib collection is impressive, their future stories are going to be very juicy. thank you for bringing it to my attention. i'll look at them as they break, as i know you will...this was a thorough analysis, and what caught my eye was the distinction between the chemical and biological weapons versus the nuclear weapons...this will be an exciting story, no doubt.

my printer is out of ink, but i'll fix that tomorrow. this is the kind of series worth printing.

bluz

My guy won the championship. haha It's no big whoop. I've not watched like I used to. Gotta get my chores done on the weekend...and study.

I missed MTP this morning, so will have to catch the repeat at 10 EST.

Well said Butte.

We get propaganda from people caliming to BE THERE, but they are ALWAYS tripped up with a simple question.

Rummy is treating these PEOPLE like machine parts, which can be recycled until they wear out, or just become useless. Then, it's back to the scrap heap to get more "Used" parts.

It's ALL a joke for these War Prifiteers.

Good evening, Butte

Haven't seen you 'round here before, so welcome. Your comments are very interesting, but i don't know enough about the military to comment, other than we appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us. You are retired, now?

fade, the Trib is NOT calling that a 'Story", nor an "Analysis"

They are calling it a 9 part EDITORIAL!

Something is up with THAT.

{{{Bleu}}}

Have a wonderful week...enjoy mtp...and goodnight

yeah, something called the legal department...they're doing an enormous amount of fact-checking...and there was no "opinion" to speak of in that "editorial"...i think they're very wise to present it as such...

yeah, they're covering their collective ass...might not bode well for the pretzledent and his trusted leaders...tenet and powell took a dive for him...there's probably something in the record to indicate that explicitly...

i'm going to love this, that much i know

Jeez Louise, The Trib got FOIA info and put it up right next to Bush's speeches. Powell at the UN was laid bare. Tenet was proven to be a manipulator for the sole purpose of gaing access to the Oval Office.

I can't wait for the rest of the Editorial...

AND PART 10...

"Let's Face It, Mr. President... Redux"

{{{dpd}}}

goodnight, mwah

{{fade}}

Mmmwwwaahhh!!

Published 15 minutes ago..

Lotsa dead, but not the guy they were trying to kill

Has Bushco done enough to be charged for War Crimes, and be hauled into the Hague?

YET?

OOPS, They Were Collateral Damage

Night fade. I was watching Blues Brothers 2000, and now I am back to cleaning.

What is wrong with the DNC? the open thread came unravelled, and they can't start another one. I feel totally disenfranchised!

It seems to be working OK here. Adapt and Utilize.

(Sure beats "Lockstep and Ignorant" every time)

Hows it goin' Flagjohn?

The enormous amount of buzz in the paast few days made for an 800+ thread, and the folks on DIAL UP kept getting "timed out"

So, Here we are.

If 'Mean Jean' didn't know Mr. Murhta's credentials...she should have never spoken. It's hard to believe that a person of her years could be THAT naive! Does she not research ANYTHING? Apparently not, for she..
Doesn't know the house rules.
Doesn't know jacksquat about a person she is going to comment on in front of television cameras.
Quotes a marine who talks tough, but in his 30+ years never saw combat in ONE military engagement, and never faced the choice of 'cut or run.'
Posted by mammalicious on November 20, 2005 at 06:01 PM

It didn't bother Bush Junior to "cut and run" when he was in the Texas Air National Guard, now did it? Is he a coward?

How U.S. Fell Under the Spell of 'Curveball'

BERLIN — The German intelligence officials responsible for one of the most important informants on Saddam Hussein's suspected weapons of mass destruction say that the Bush administration and the CIA repeatedly exaggerated his claims during the run-up to the war in Iraq.

Five senior officials from Germany's Federal Intelligence Service, or BND, said in interviews with The Times that they warned U.S. intelligence authorities that the source, an Iraqi defector code-named Curveball, never claimed to produce germ weapons and never saw anyone else do so.

According to the Germans, President Bush mischaracterized Curveball's information when he warned before the war that Iraq had at least seven mobile factories brewing biological poisons. Then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell also misstated Curveball's accounts in his prewar presentation to the United Nations on Feb. 5, 2003, the Germans said.

more at LA Times

Am I the only one up right now?

I'm trying to locate a post from yesterday that gave figures on how many have died in Iraq abd also the numbers that the government doesn't list - the people who have died either in route or in German hospitals.

I need that post so if you're out there with those figures could you post it again? I'm writing a letter to the editor of our local newspaper and I want to put those figures in my letter.

Posted by Kathy_in_Indiana on November 21, 2005 at 04:06 AM

Kathy-

I didn't find what you were actually looking for, but here's a search on the key words you were asking about:

ACTUAL U.S. MILITARY DEATH?

I'd add a word of caution to you here- be careful how you word a LTE only because the repukes will "come out of the woodwork" and attack you. Maybe you could use phrases like, "it's strongly speculated" or "several sources have concluded and strongly believe" (and maybe cite a few).

The only reason I say this is because I think it goes back to that cartoon and article Ted Rall had to do withdraw last year on that very subject.

For what it's worth- wish I could have been more help. ;)

morning chuck and kathy.

i get the feeling that bush lecturing china about how they need to let pat robertson sit in on communist party meetings or whatever moronic twaddle he ranted is alot like a puppy trying to convince its owner its ok to pee on the rug. could we have sent a person with a smaller brain or more limited world view to china?

i like this quote from isaac asimov that i found at crooks and liars and by the way, they have an 11 minute clip from snl that sends up bush in asia and that bat lady congresswoman who attacked murtha if your interested:

"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."

we need a new thread. meeting in pamb's garage like this with the door down and richard nixon masks on is getting old.

i find this quote from president shit for brains in asia poignant:

"My hope is that the government of China will not fear Christians who gather to worship openly,"

fact is i never feared "christians who gather to worship openly" before he was elected but i sure as shit do now!

gee i seem to bashing bush this morning. i don't know whats gotten into me? from the wapo:

"BEIJING, Nov. 20 -- When President Bush was flying toward Asia a week ago, his national security adviser, Stephen J. Hadley, predicted to reporters in the back of the plane that the four-nation trip would yield no "headline breakthroughs." He turned out to be right...

White House officials said that did not mean the trip was unsuccessful, because they never expected to bring home any major agreements in the first place."

this is like what i told my father when i was taking french in high school..."don't be concerned about the failing grade, i made a deal with the teacher that i would never try to speak french in public and i wouldn't have to do any homework or take tests and he would just fail me!"...my father was thrilled with this plan.

it is also like having your doctor tell you that he wants to do knee replacement surgery on you but you shouldn't expect any increase in stregth or mobility....i mean why the fuck go to china if you already know it will be a waste of time? send the airline tickets to some kid trying to master how to make dim sum or something and lets get something for money.

good morning,

bash away, gregg...i'm so enjoying it.

hi fade. that snl piece at crooks and liars is fun.

Population 1: the town that's been reclaimed by the prairie

As rural economies collapse, communities across America are being deserted, as Paul Harris discovers in Monowi, Nebraska

~snip~Changes in the rural economy, where Wal-Mart and other chain stores take almost all the business, have destroyed what remains.~snip~

Morning, Dems. I hope I followed the clues correctly and am on the right thread!

Greg, he went to China because he is trying to escape the US until his spin doctors can put a better face on the war. And the ecomony. And the deficit. And scare us to death over bird flu. You know the dance.

Morning, Fade!

OMG, Cspan is showing that dumb photo of bush trying to get out that locked door in China. I bet you won't see that on msm news.

Good morning, Cyn

The SNL clip on Crooks and Liars is hilarious--thanx to gregg, i'm getting off to a funny start, this morning...

The Halliburton joke is my favorite--"millions with an 'm', that's adorable"

Good Morning again..at work now. Man - I couldn't sleep this morning that's why I was posting at 4am..good grief. I need a life....

Thanks so much Chuck for the link. I'm going to use that information when I write my letter. Also, I am very much aware of the republican wolves out there. They have pounced on me every time I write a letter to our local newspaper. I'm used to it. I've got a very thick skin and it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, if I can stick it to them - I usually do! The last time I got tons of feed back was when I refered to the tactics of the republicans as "republican terrorism". That brought a few of the crazies out. Job well done I guess you'd say.....

morning cyn. today i start my even more intense cardio work out as i try to cooperate with my cardiologists desire to kill me. of course that 100,000 calorie piece of chocolate cake i ate will take six months to work off all by itself...then again maybe i should power walk the 60 miles back up there and get another slice?

Did anyone see Rumsfelt on Face the Nation yesterday when he said he didn't know anything about the Murtha/Schmidt thing but then just a few seconds later said, "well, they (Congress) did vote the Get Out Now bill....

Give me a break - the lying piece of horse poop..

Did anyone see Rumsfelt on Face the Nation yesterday when he said he didn't know anything about the Murtha/Schmidt thing but then just a few seconds later said, "well, they (Congress) did vote the Get Out Now bill....

Give me a break - the lying piece of horse poop..

sorry for double post

Hey, good morning everyone! Hope you all had a great weekend.

gregg,

an m&m = a walk the length of a football field, 36 chocolate chips = one mile

well, off to work...where do you work, Kathy? nice to be able to blog on the job...

i'm fortunate in that i get to read news for a large portion of my day...i love my job...happy monday and have a fine week, y'all

Morning, Kathy and AmericaF!

Gregg, I loved your post on Lizzy's blog where you said we wandered around the surreal town as no one wanted to leave the group. You hit the nail on the head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/20/AR2005112001463.html?sub=new

Mark Warner in 2008!

cyn, thanks. it was how it seemed to me. now i must head for the evil treadmill that is calling me from town. have a nice day i am not sure we will have too much more of this weather. regards to carl.

Fade, you are right - Just watched the Crooks&Liars video and I'm ready to start my day.

Off to work. Have a great day, all.

fade - I work in the aftermarket for the RV industry. We're in our off season right now so I get to answer the phone, when it rings, blog, play games and watch tv! But then sometime in March all hell breaks loose and the season is off and running. Then I didn't have time to swallow spit if ya know what I mean!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/20/AR2005112001167.html

I guess you can't call everyone that disagrees with the war 'unpatriotic cowards' and tell China to be more open to ideas and international criticism in the same breath.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/20/AR2005112001167.html

Sorry, meant to link that story.

new open thread

Yeah, I'm retired now. If I wasn't I couldn't be saying what I've been saying without repercussions that would damage my career. That's why a lot of military aren't speaking out. I figure somebody has to speak up for them.

What amazes me is the logic of their argument that withdrawal hands over a victory to the terrorists. Winning the peace means winning over the hearts and minds of the general public in Iraq, and our presence there in force alienates those we are trying to befriend and adds membership to the terrorists' rank and file.

The Murtha Plan did not call for abandonment of Iraq, but a redeployment to their outer boarders. It called for containment, but not occupation. To my way of thinking, it shows our resolve to stand by the Iraqies in their times of need while falling short of intervention in their internal affairs. If the plan had not been attacked as a cut and run policy by the administration's followers, and instead had been embraced as an act of goodwill to the Iraqi people, it might have stood as an ultimate diplomacy move. Now, having already been labled as a plan to hand over an easy victory to the terrorists by our own, it would be a self fulfilling prophecy if we proceeded in that direction.

I feel if we presented our arguments as a diplomacy move to win over the general populace of Iraq to our side, instead of the terrorists, and not a plan to cut our losses or serve our interests, we would grant the GOP a chance to disengage gracefully from their opposition on the grounds they have heretofore stated.

I'm only one democrat, probably alone in his opinion, but I felt it needed to be stated here.

I am so very glad that some Democrat had the guts to speak out publicly on his beliefs. This man is a war hero, and a patriot and his service to this country can't be questioned by any decent person. America is becoming tired of the Bush bunch attacking their own people for disagreeing with them and we are becoming tired of the attitude that democracy is always agreeing with the guys in power. Where would Republicans be if Democrats had played the same game when they had all the power? If your actions won't stand the test with America, they are considered wrong for our country and must be changed. That is democracy.