First IMPEACH BUSH

so yesterday the repubs copied our exit plan initiative. today they're copying our war planning criticism. reds are turning blue all over this wonderous country!

Hagel Defends Criticisms of Iraq Policy
Administration Calls Statements by Democrats Harmful to War Effort, Troops
Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) strongly criticized yesterday the White House's new line of attack against critics of its Iraq policy, saying that "the Bush administration must understand that each American has a right to question our policies in Iraq and should not be demonized for disagreeing with them."

With President Bush leading the charge, administration officials have lashed out at Democrats who have accused the administration of manipulating intelligence to justify the war in Iraq. Bush has suggested that critics are hurting the war effort, telling U.S. troops in Alaska on Monday that critics "are sending mixed signals to our troops and the enemy. And that's irresponsible."

Hagel, a Vietnam War veteran and a potential presidential candidate in 2008, countered in a speech to the Council of Foreign Relations that the Vietnam War "was a national tragedy partly because members of Congress failed their country, remained silent and lacked the courage to challenge the administrations in power until it was too late."

"To question your government is not unpatriotic -- to not question your government is unpatriotic," Hagel said, arguing that 58,000 troops died in Vietnam because of silence by political leaders. "America owes its men and women in uniform a policy worthy of their sacrifices."

Hagel said Democrats have an obligation to be constructive in their criticism, but he accused the administration of "dividing the country" with its rhetorical tactics.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501450.html?referrer=email

Good Morning Everyone!

Nice to have a clearly identified open thread . . .

:)

Bob,

Emulation is the best form of flattery.

Another Report of War Crimes at Fallujah

Click Here

Posted by fade2bluz on November 16, 2005 at 07:53 AM

Hi ya, bluz. I had class this morning and am just now getting back online. The other students loved my pancake pie bake. ;)

I give to my local democratic club and/or executive board as well as working my slacker off doing fundraisers. This gives to local dems campaigns as well as helps pay any apportionment monies our county owes the state party.

I give on the state level by attending their dinners & parties (woo-hoo! I love a party!) and contribute to the direct campaign. I will never give to moveon or any other "progressive" cause ever again. The time we had the foilhat event was enough for me. My piddly $250 donation and the cost of the programs could have bought a lot of ads or air time for someone local. The up side is, meeting others from around the USA was priceless!

I'm hoping that these "meetups/organizational meetings" don't over shadow the county political organizations. It will divide the grassroots efforts.

Hello all ... I really enjoyed last night's kickoff. We had about 45 people in Boise, ID, ready to get to work.

Gov. Dean mentioned that there's somewhere on the DNC site where we can sign up to get a weekly message email from the DNC, but I don't remember where it is on the site. Can someone help?

I already am on the DNC email list, but this sounded like something else (especially since he said 11,000 people are on it - I'm sure there are way more on the email list).

Thanks, and here's to MUCH success in 2006.

Julie

Write the senators!

Samuel Alito could not have put it more plainly. "The Constitution," he wrote in a 1985 job application he posted to the Reagan administration's attorney general, Ed Meese, "does not protect a right to an abortion."

Click Here

I hope these meetings will activate those who hosted/attended to run for precinct committee person.

Back to the grind for me.

Nice to see you, Jacqueline . . . :)

Posted by Paul on November 16, 2005 at 11:12 AM

I suppose reasonable minds can disagree on abortion, although I'm inclined to err on the side of caution and say that the Constitution provides a limited (not absolute, but very few, if any, rights are absolute) protection of the right to abortion. But from your link, I find this even more shocking:

Alito's antipathy toward Roe wasn't the only high point of his '85 job application. He also noted that he disagreed with the Warren Court's decisions "in the areas of criminal procedure, the Establishment Clause and reapportionment." Reapportionment? By far the most notable reapportionment decision of the Warren Court was its famous one-man, one-vote ruling, which required state legislatures to create districts of equal population. By 1985 this decision -- unlike Roe -- had won universal acceptance. What on earth did Alito disagree with here? The disenfranchisement of pasture and cow?

Posted by bb on November 16, 2005 at 10:57 AM

It's nice too see more conservatives finally voicing their distaste for the President's war policy (well, his lack thereof), perhaps I'm NOT alone. Well, I can dream, can't I?

Posted by redstaterebel on November 16, 2005 at 11:12 AM

We had 10 people in Nampa, Idaho...not a bad turnout actually.

One thing for certain, Dean is a fabulous motivator.

Posted by Terry on November 16, 2005 at 11:26 AM

And to think, it only took the Supreme's 190 years to realize the equal district population idea set forth by Thomas Paine in the aptly titled 'Common Sense'.

As a follow-up to my last post . . .

Although they've made overturning Roe their focal point, the conservatives' judicial agenda does not end there. Make no mistake about it, if they get their way, they will roll back Constitutional jurisprudence in this country 100 years. At a minimum.

Posted by AmericaFirst on November 16, 2005 at 11:30 AM

You know what? If this is true, I think we found what we could use to defeat this nomination. I know abortion is the "sexier" (pun not intended) issue, but if we get the word out that Alito would overturn Baker v. Carr, if he got his chance, we'll have everyone but the extreme lunatic-fringe right and the blind-faith Bush supporters demanding that their Senator oppose his confirmation.

I hear ya A1.

But it is really convenient for them to do it now that we are within a year of elections. I don't trust a word that comes out of their mouth. Some of these conservative senators have acted (and voted) like right wing nut jobs run amok the past couple of years. There is an agenda for Republicans to turn against Bush because it is the fashionable thing to do in this country right now (and for good reason!!).

MNDem

It's nice to see a Republican stand up and say that it is patriotic to question your government. I respect the guy for standing up to party leaders and saying that, even though I may disagree with him on other things.

It'd be nice if we could get back to having healthy debates about government policies without accusing those who disagree of lacking patriotism. It's like when people of one religion call those of another religion "atheists". It not only stinks, it reveals that one's argument must be pretty weak. If the truth were really on Bush's side, he wouldn't have to resort to such underhanded tactics.

Posted by MNDem on November 16, 2005 at 11:35 AM

Sorry, I just get a little hopeful that there are moderate conservatives like myself who don't blame only Bush for the out of control spending, reckless environmental policy, and lack of stance on illegal immigration. It takes more than one man to spin us out of control like we now are.

But it is really convenient for them to do it now that we are within a year of elections. I don't trust a word that comes out of their mouth. Some of these conservative senators have acted (and voted) like right wing nut jobs run amok the past couple of years. There is an agenda for Republicans to turn against Bush because it is the fashionable thing to do in this country right now (and for good reason!!).MNDem

So true! But what is more disappointing is that these guys are coming forward and many of OUR leaders, Clinton for one, are being silent about this. They should be on the front line, saying what Hagel said yesterday.

No, it takes an administration, Congress, and general public with enough enablers to allow Bush and Cheney to have their way.

I understand. I don't necessarily believe that moderate conservatives are the enemy. There is such a slippery slope, however. Just like here in Minnesota. Norm Coleman was projecting himself as a very moderate Republican (he used to be a Democrat as mayor for St. Paul for cripes sakes). But, Wellstone was still coasting to a win. Then, Wellstone's unfortunate plane accident happens and Coleman wins by a hair. Now the "moderate conservative" votes in lock-step with the most extreme members of the Republican party. I wish some of these senators and congressmen would get out of Washington and meet with their constituents more often instead of getting brainwashed by lobbyists and members of their own party.

Posted by Terry on November 16, 2005 at 11:33 AM

Made me go read up, ya did :-) Reynolds v Sims goes hand-in-glove. If either or both were overturned, would that mean that the DeLay-style gerrymandering could stand indefinitely with no recourse? At the moment, there should be recourse (if anyone had the money) to challenge the weird, snakey, enemy-vote-diluting, friendly-vote-concentrating districting the repubs put in place. Or is there really, and is that why the districts still stand?

It's disgusting to see any party trying that and it's past irritating that the current crop appear to be getting away with it.

I just don't know enough about this kind of law to know what to think, yet.

Posted by Terry on November 16, 2005 at 11:33 AM

I think you could be right Terry. Abortion is an extremely touchy, passion-related subject, whereas the equal-voting issue (among others) allows us and others to think more logically and rationally, to bring us down to a less personal level. Such issues are easier for the common voter to get on board with.

Personally, in my and only my OPINION (we know what those are equated to), the Democrats should step away a bit from the abortion issue, allow it to fade a bit for now and focus on issues that are not quite so apt to ignite extreme sensitivities or emotions, purely political issues. Judge Alito has provided enough fuel for fires other than abortion. Like I said, that is only my OPINION, and is to be taken as such, and not as some type of guidance for others to follow.

You may not have seen this -- The Details of Who Lied . . .

Click Here

Good Morning Everyone!

Nice to have a clearly identified open thread . . .

:)

Posted by Paul on November 16, 2005 at 11:01 AM

INDEED!!

Our Casualties Mounted Today

George W. Bush has slaughtered 2,080 boys as of today!

Here's my report from the New Orleans Democratic Lawn Chair Rendezvous last night.

It's like we're playing Russian Roulette with this culture of corruption we've allowed to bloom at all levels of our government.

Which one of us will go when the next disaster strikes?

http://kunselman.info/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=10&blogId=1

I get the feeling the new Order around this blog would rather we ONLY chat if we are hosting parties and marching in visually observed parades for the party????

Sorry, I served my time in the military and maybe it was that but I don't march or gather for orders any more!

Doesn't make me any less of a Democrat. jmo.

If you haven't read Woodward's statement, you will probably find it interesting:

Click Here

Posted by Dawnelle on November 16, 2005 at 12:52 PM

I know what you mean. I'm of the opinion that ideas are better spread by simple conversation, a small planting of the seed using a well placed comment. I generally find people to be much more receptive that way.

AF did you serve? curious.

I am quite sure being ordered around for 6 yrs is what makes me quick to jump back now days.

You are the republican that can't find a PUG home to chat in? Why not become an Independent (at least?)

Republicans that don't change are a REAL threat to some here. Just so you know.

Posted by Dawnelle on November 16, 2005 at 01:05 PM

Actually, I'm active duty right now (I've been in for 8 years now). And, I'm not a Republican. I hold generally moderate conservative views on most topics, but I've found that I tend to be more in agreement with many here than I ever thought possible. I'm about as independent as they come. Fact is, I hope Gov. Mark Warner runs in '08 so that I have someone to vote for!

No, no, no!

Wes CLARK! or AL GORE!

I turned back into a PROUD Democrat with AL. (old story here by now) I was so proud of myself. hehe.

What can I say I really liked that old fart Perot! He made me laugh! Had AL Sharpton run back then I'd have voted for him. I didn't DO politics back then.

I didn't know anyone else that did either.

But we never had a SHRUB in the White House until recently (I started paying more attention during the first Bush)

I understand that many folks here are very guarded when it comes to any conservatives coming here, and I can't say I blame them. I've seen some of the people you call trolls come in here, and they are pretty repugnant. I don't come here to be disruptive (I was a bit on Monday, but I've since toned myself down some on certain issues, because like I said, I find myself in agreement on more issues here than in disagreement).

this stuff makes me want to puke no matter who does it. too bad we thought we could wade into the middle east and fix things. they look as screwed up as ever and if anything we got ourselves unfixed to boot.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - An Iraqi student who said he was held with prisoners in an Interior Ministry bunker described on Wednesday how he was hung blindfolded in excruciating positions and called a "Sunni dog" by his Shi'ite interrogators.

He was speaking after more than 170 detainees were discovered in the bunker on Sunday night during a raid by U.S. troops who were searching for a missing teenage boy.

"They blindfolded me and tied my hands behind my back and then hung me by a ceiling hook. My shoulders and arms felt like they would come off," the former detainee, who asked to be identified only by his initials, M.I., told Reuters.

"Other times we had to stand up straight and not move for 10 straight hours or face more torture."

I was in class last night, change chance the call is available for download today?

Posted by Dawnelle on November 16, 2005 at 01:14 PM

Everybody has a turning point story. Lord knows I have mine. But lets say we just agree to disagree on our preferred candidates for '08, since arguing about it won't change either of our keen military minds. :-)

ethics, now there is a term that the bush team has never wrapped its head around:

LONDON (Reuters) - Global warming poses an enormous ethical challenge because countries that produce the least amount of greenhouse gases will suffer the most from climate change, scientists said on Wednesday.

Whether it is an increase in poor health from diseases such as malaria or shrinking water supplies, nations in sub-Saharan Africa, Asia and South America are vulnerable to the consequences of changes in global temperatures.

The World Health Organization (WHO) has estimated that climate change leads to more than 150,000 deaths every year and at least 5 million cases of illness.

In a review of the impact of global warming on public health, researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the WHO predict countries in Africa and coastal nations along the Pacific and Indian Oceans will be hardest hit.

ethics anyone?

Yes did Warner serve?

Gore and Clark did (of course)

If you're in the military NOW? Why are you wasting time on the net? Don't you have a job? Unless your job is working on the NET? Spying on democrats?

lol joking

Posted by Dawnelle on November 16, 2005 at 01:23 PM

Shhh! You'll blow my cover! :) No, bit of a standdown phase right now. In regards to your earlier question, no, I don't think Warner served. But to be the Governor of Virginia, you have to keep a pretty good rapport with the military.

Actually, I could agree with you on Clark, maybe a Warner/Clark ticket (or vice-versa). I applaud Mr. Gore on his environmental stances, but I'm not sure how he would look a second time around. I'm not against him or anything, just hesitant.

Warner/Edwards 2008

Warner/Edwards 2008

Posted by MNDem on November 16, 2005 at 01:32 PM

That'll work too!

Posted by AmericaFirst on November 16, 2005 at 01:29 PM

An honest opinion, I can appreciate that. Gore had my M.O.S. (I think he held both of them) and he's so much thought of where the internet is concerned! I love his forward thinking ways.

NO no no! At least ONE of them must have served their country! imo

Posted by AmericaFirst on November 16, 2005 at 01:29 PM

Maybe you can provide some of us (me) with some info on your man...I'm willing to listen.

I was a huge Kerry fan (still am), but I understand that some have hesitancy with that. And, then there is the tinfoil part of me that believes that we could ressurect Reagan as a democrat and still not win b/c of voter fraud.

So, sell me.

Posted by BlueinIdaho on November 16, 2005 at 01:35 PM

Man, I never thought I would be selling a Democrat, but here goes nothing (I think hell just froze over!):

(this is from http://www.draftmarkwarner.com)
1. Turned a $6 billion deficit into a $544 Million surplus
2. Eliminated or merged more than 70 duplicative or unnecessary boards and commissions and eight state agencies
3. Salvaged Virginia’s threatened AAA bond rating
4. Double-digit unemployment has plummeted in 12 of 13 of the most distressed counties
5. 97% of all eligible children enrolled in heath care
6. Single largest investment in K-12 education in state history
7. Second largest increase in college and university funding in the nation
8. Highest math SAT score increase in the nation
9. 700 miles of broadband connecting nearly 700,000 citizens and more than 19,000 businesses

Now I know that is only one state, but Virginia has been rated as THE #1 Best Managed State by the independent Government Performance Project. His (and Mr. Clark's) endorsement has been credited with giving Dem. Tim Kaine the recent victory in the Virginia gubernatorial election.

Where is he on Equal Rights? Choice? Etc?

Warner is a little socially conservative for my taste. I prefer Russ Feingold. The guy voted against the Patriot Act. He wants a timetable for Iraq. He is very fiscally conservative. He even bucked consensus and voted against pork barrel spending. I'll see if I can link for you.

Refreshing to see a Senator turn down pay raises. Even when he gets them he sends them to the treasury.

http://www.russfeingold.org/#Issues

He's considered very "liberal" but has a conservative fiscal policy.

Forget it. It says he's a moderate on social issues. I don't think I could vote for him.

pdf files on the warner site

Where is he on Equal Rights? Choice? Etc?

Posted by Dawnelle on November 16, 2005 at 01:51 PM

http://www.governor.virginia.gov/

That is the governor's official website. Type in any issue in the 'search' box, and it will give you either his position, voting record, or both. It would take all day to try to list them on here. I can tell you he supports Equal Rights (but that is a broad category, so I'm not sure if he supports everything?!), he is pro-choice but is opposed to all post-viability abortions - except to protect the mother's life or her health.

Dawny our state failed for reproductive rights. He believes marriage should be limited to between a man and a woman and does not support even civil unions. He's pro death penalty. He is very conservative on most social issues. I'd love to see him kick Allen's butt in the Senate but I won't vote for him in Dem primary.

Posted by Dawnelle on November 16, 2005 at 02:05 PM

The purpose of representative government is for the elected official to represent the will of the people that put them in that position. That is what makes the primaries so much fun! As for me, I'm socially conservative on many issues, and will cast my vote for the candidate I find appropriate, as I'm sure you will vote for the one that best fits your perspective. Ain't democracy grand!

Ready for your Laugh of the Day???

The Righties are tired of the songs against Bush, so they have one written now, they want The Right Brothers to sing. Check out the Lyrics! Written by a 1st Grader! LMAO!

And don't forget to check out comments below the article. Especially #13 !

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/11/16/bush-was-right/

Thanks Christine! That explains a LOT! And for MOST of the reasons you named I have to agree with you.

I don't want any ones rights being denied. I would also like States to have more rights! Then people can be more selective where they live. At least that would make it easy for MOI! I love to travel but living would be preferable in a BLUE state if I could. Hopefully Florida will change back in 08!

Kick Jebby off to boot camp as wel!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051116/ts_nm/energy_cheney_dc_1

Cheney and oil execs caught with hands in cookie jar.

Forget it. It says he's a moderate on social issues. I don't think I could vote for him.

That seems pretty hasty. I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with being moderate. I thought Gore was great and I voted for him. But, give me a break. Even though we got screwed in the election, Gore barely had enough to beat BUSH. What if the Republicans had put out a better candidate than Bush? Gore would have had absolutely no shot. I am in agreement with a lot of liberal views, but I also realize that many people in the country do not. Besides, the Presidents position should be moderate, since he/she are the one that is representing all of us. Senators and congressman don't necessarily have to be moderates, they should represent their constituency.

Posted by CAwaltz on November 16, 2005 at 02:08 PM

Actually, HB 751, the bill that would have made civil unions illegal, was vetoed by Gov. Warner, who thought it to be unconstitutional. He stated that it would be wrong for Virginia to go farther than any other state to restrict legal relationship (i.e. Civil Unions).

Time for me to be OFF!

Peace everyone! BBL

Later!

Posted by MNDem on November 16, 2005 at 02:16 PM

Sorry MN indeed it was hasty because I am now having to leave.

I still think calling yourself a moderate is "sometimes" a cop out way of saying you have a prejudice against someones color or sexual preference (likes its anyones GD business) ya know?

Not saying any ONE in particular is..... I just don't buy it.

L8ter!! :-)

Good and funny web site PamB:

I like this comment - Fortunately those that watch that shit on MTV couldn’t find a polling place anywhere that didn’t have funny cigarette smoke pouring out the door. This is no surprise. Tbe Bushco has always appealed to those with IQ’s less than their shoe size. Why should we expect more?

AmericaFirst

I live in his state he has stated he believes marriage is between a man and a woman period. Yes, he is in a a state that by a slim majority is socially conservative but that does not mean that you oppose equal treatment for minorities (which is what I consider homosexuals)

Gore barely had enough to beat BUSH. What if the Republicans had put out a better candidate than Bush?

Did you not pay any attention to the election that Bush stole? Gore had a good many votes over Bush - they just didn't count them. Perhaps a better statement would be, What if the Democrats had put out a better battle to have all votes counted....

http://www.washblade.com/2004/4-23/news/localnews/override.cfm

According to this he didn't veto it. He just voiced concerns over its constitutionality. It opened the door for legal challenge.

Hey Kathy! How are you?

I'm not sure what more Dems could have done as far as the Gore/Bush election. They took it all the way to the Supreme Court. Got shot down, but I don't know where they could go from there.

Hey Am1st ! I didn't know you were active duty. Cool. and Thank You, sir. (ma'am? - I'm not sure.)

:)

Hey, all. If you want a reminder of how truly evil some of these people on the other side are, this one just jumped up and slapped me in the face. I won't paint with too broad a brush and lump everyone of them in that category, but certainly, this poster is not alone.

Beyond disgusting

Posted by Kathy_in_Indiana on November 16, 2005 at 02:28 PM

. . . or a better candidate than Gore?

Did you not pay any attention to the election that Bush stole? Gore had a good many votes over Bush - they just didn't count them. Perhaps a better statement would be, What if the Democrats had put out a better battle to have all votes counted....

I understand this. But if we would have put out a better candidate than Gore in 2000, the vote wouldn't have been so close and the Republicans wouldn't have even had an opportunity to steal the election.

Terry,

Go to the "Report Abuse" icon on that page, and it references that post, and add your comments about the Viciousness and Hatred of someone hating Democrats so much, they would talk about raping their children!!!!!

I need to go puke, now.

Forget it. It says he's a moderate on social issues. I don't think I could vote for him.

Posted by Dawnelle on November 16, 2005 at 02:05 PM

Dawn, I know you know Clark better than I do, but I always thought he was quite moderate myself. Why the difference between Clark and Warner in your perception?

As for me, Warner wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd vote for him if he becomes the nominee. Certainly, he'd be a quantum leap improvement over the one who's there now.

There are many Democrats whom I will go out and vote for, but my level of support will be based on who it is. Warner leaves me luke warm. So does Bayh. Hillary, unless she retracts her support for Iraq, I cannot support her.

Clark I like, but don't honestly think he can win as Pres. VP, maybe.

Kerry, I feel like been there, done that. I don't think he could win a second time around.

Edwards, a cutie, but does he have enough experience for Top Position?

Richardson, a man I could get behind and fight for. He looks like a man to be trusted.

Thanks, Pam, I just did that.

Posted by Terry on November 16, 2005 at 02:38 PM

Wow. That "person" needs help. If the topic wasn't so disgusting it would be laughable---he equates good Christian men with those that won't lift a finger to help their fellow man. Ahhhh, the twisted "logic" of the wacky right.

Did you all get a chance to view the photos from last night's meet-ups so far? Wish I could have attended one, but had a prior committment

http://www.democrats.org/a/party/a_50_state_strategy/national_organizing_kickoff/

I listened to Dean last night and was struck by something he said that keeps coming up on this blog today. He said that the labels we give one another, Liberal, Centrist, Moderate, Conservative do not add anything to the Democratic party and are used primarily by the Republicans to frame the opposition. I tend to agree. If you place a label on a potential candidate and then toss him aside based on that label, what have you gained?

Richardson, a man I could get behind and fight for. He looks like a man to be trusted.

I have to agree on Mr. Richardson as well. He has a long list of accomplishments and has served in some pretty important positions.

It is no secret that a majority of the people in the south are conservative. We, as democrats, are not going to get them to change cold turkey. First, we need to warm them into being moderates. Then, once they have opened their mind, they will see how great our party is.

That is why I feel having a moderate president or vice president with southern qualities is important in 2008.

Does anybody know if they are going to post Dean's speeches from last night on this website. We had our event at our local government center and the room didn't have a speakerphone :(

Yeah, and who am I going to believe, you, or my lying eyes?

U.S. defends use of white phosphorus.

Reuters - 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon on Wednesday acknowledged using incendiary white-phosphorus munitions in a 2004 counterinsurgency offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, but defended their use as legal. Army Lt. Col. Barry Venable, a Pentagon spokesman, said the U.S. military had not used the highly flammable weapons against civilians, contrary to an Italian state television report this month which said the weapons were used against men, women and children in Falluja who were burned to the bone. "We categorically deny that claim," Venable said.

Yahoo News

Posted by Domingo on November 16, 2005 at 02:57 PM

I remember the pictures that were posted long ago from that battle. At the time they thought the material was agent orange. Our leaders are barbarians.

I think that everyone may have a different opinion on what a "moderate" is. I don't consider Warner moderate. I consider him socially conservative and fiscally progressive. Of course, that's just my opinion. It doesn't mean I don't like him or that I wouldn't vote for him. He just wouldn't be my first choice.

Pam,

Tell me why you like Richardson. I haven't heard a whole lot about him but I am interested because he seems to have diplomacy skills and he'll have a good handle and credibility on the immigration issue.

Bill Clinton calls Iraq war, 'a big mistake.'

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates Nov 16, 2005 — Former President Clinton told Arab students Wednesday the United States made a "big mistake" when it invaded Iraq, stoking the partisan debate back home over the war.

Clinton cited the lack of planning for what would happen after Saddam Hussein was overthrown.

"Saddam is gone. It's a good thing, but I don't agree with what was done," Clinton told students at a forum at the American University of Dubai.

"It was a big mistake. The American government made several errors … one of which is how easy it would be to get rid of Saddam and how hard it would be to unite the country."

Clinton's remarks came when he was taking questions about the U.S. invasion, which began in 2003. His response drew cheers and a standing ovation at the end of the hour-long session.

ABC News

I think you'll have a hard time convincing folks that Richardson is the right guy to balance the budget though. His state takes in more federal dollars than it contributes to the kitty. In all fairness though I don't know if it has gotten better or worse since he has taken office.

He said that the labels we give one another, Liberal, Centrist, Moderate, Conservative do not add anything to the Democratic party and are used primarily by the Republicans to frame the opposition. I tend to agree.

I agree, blue, Either one is a Democrat or one is a Republican. One has to make a decision which party their ideals are most closely aligned with, and go from there.
To which Degree they believe in the party has no bearing.

And if you Choose Democrat or you Choose Republican, I do not think people should be trying to 'tweak' the party to fit their own views. Accept it.

contrary to an Italian state television report this month which said the weapons were used against men, women and children in Falluja who were burned to the bone. "We categorically deny that claim.

Pam, they can "categorically deny that claim" all they want to, I saw the dead men's, women's and children's melted bodies. We got us a real live "war criminal" in the White House.

Pam B,

But sometimes the label Democrat can be misleading as well. Would you call Lieberman a Democrat? He calls himself one and yet I'd say that a good bulk of the time he is in agreement with the GOP.

In just over two years, Governor Richardson has made good on his campaign promises to improve education, cut income taxes and the tax on food, build a high-wage economy, develop a statewide water plan and make New Mexico safer by getting tough on DWI, domestic violence and sex crimes. Governor Richardson has been credited for implementing the most forward-looking clean energy agenda in the nation.

As a result, New Mexico is now a national leader in job growth and economic momentum. The state has a balanced budget and one of the highest budget reserves in the country.

Governor Richardson currently serves as Chairman of the Democratic Governors’ Association. Governor Richardson is also past chairman of:

Western Governors’ Association
Border Governors’ Conference
2004 Democratic National Convention
Governor Richardson served for 15 years as New Mexico’s Representative in the 3rd Congressional District. Governor Richardson served in 1997 as the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, and in 1998, he was unanimously confirmed by the U.S. Senate as Secretary of the U.S. Department of Energy. Governor Richardson has been nominated several times for the Nobel Peace Prize.

I think it is easier to look at issues rather than political party especially when you are looking at a primary when all the contenders will be Democrats.

Posted by Domingo on November 16, 2005 at 03:05 PM

Now if he can only convince his wife. She is starting to irk me.

Here's the rub though. As of 2003 NM got $1.99 for each dollar they gave in revenue to the Federal government. While their bond rating is good and it appears that he knows how to balance a budget the idea that they spend more than they take in really disturbs me.

I realize part of it is the immigration issue. I just wonder how much.

Christine,

No one despises Lieberman more than I do, but yes, I consider him a Democrat, because he adds to our seats in the Senate.

And his efforts to lean to the right and vote with them on issues, like last week's striking down of habeas corpus for Prisoners, is an effort to gain favor with Republicans for his own personal Political aspirations. Has nothing to do with his own views.

But he Does vote Left on various issues, so I have to count him.

Now if he can only convince his wife. She is starting to irk me.Posted by BlueinIdaho on November 16, 2005 at 03:16 PM

BlueinIdaho, I'm sure she's trying to figure out what's worse, to have the Democrat voters mad at her for not taking a stand, or have the Republicans call her a "Flip-Flopper" when she runs for president. "I was for the war, before I was against it." See, that's what Democrats get for listening to Republicans. And now Bush is even saying the disaster in Iraq is just as much their fault as it is his. So much for the "personal responibility" President, huh? Guy blames everybody for his problems but his self.

Posted by CAwaltz on November 16, 2005 at 03:20 PM

It's pretty tough, however, when you don't have very many corporations or residents to support the bottom line, tax dollar wise. Nothing against NM (I've been there and its beautiful), but there doesn't seem to be a lot of people flocking there (although it is becoming more of a snowbird location).

At a Pentagon news conference, Rumsfeld noted the Iraq Liberation Act that Congress passed in 1998 had said it should be U.S. government policy to support Saddam's removal from power. He noted that Clinton signed the act and ordered four days of bombing in December 1998.

PamB, the Iraq Liberation Act that Congress passed in 1998 and Clinton signed was Joe Lieberman's bill. Old Joe has wanted this war more than anything else in his life since the first Gulf war ended in 1991. He'll stab any Democrat in the back he can to help the Repugs keep this war going.

Sunnis Seek Torture Probe; 5 Marines Die

AP - 1 hour, 16 minutes ago
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's main Sunni Arab political party on Wednesday demanded an international investigation into allegations that security forces illegally detained and tortured suspected insurgents at secret jails in Baghdad. Five U.S. Marines were killed in a firefight in the western Iraqi town of Obeidi near the Syrian border, the military said. That brought to 2,079 the number of U.S. service members who have died since the war began in 2003, according to an Associated Press count.

Yahoo News

I hope y'all don't mind and think I'm trying to tear down who you feel passionate about.I'm still trying to figure out which candidate I identify with best. I'm trying to explore all the pluses and minuses of each. I definitely like Richardson over Warner but a little less then Feingold.

BRITISH USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS IN IRAQ

What it used to be like in the old days. The question of "outlaw weapons" such as poison gas is very much one of time and place. Meanwhile, new weapons, such as cluster bombs and fuel-air bombs which suck out all oxygen over hundreds of square yards and suffocate every living creature, are unquestioned by us in the West.

"Bomber" Sir Arthur Harris, the British commander noted below, is now blamed by civilian authorities as the commander responsable for ordering the the phosphorus fire bombing of Dresden. From 150,000 to 250,000 refugees, mainly women, children and old men fleeing the invading Russian Army were immolated at the very end of the Second World War. These were far more deaths than at Heroshima (80,000) or Nagasaki. The raids were carried out by British bombers, together with the United States 8th Air Force, first with explosive bombs to break open the roof tops of buildings. and followed with phosporous bombs to successfully set off a (planned) devastating firestorm.

While the use of poison gas is now "outlawed" by the Geneva convention, the oft repeated accusation that Saddam gassed his own people neglects an important fact. Halabaja, the town where it took place, was at the time occupied by invading Iranian forces, and, according to MSNBC Internet Home News, hundreds of Iranians and civilians were killed. Now, this theory is under revision, see Jude Wanniski's criticism . Judging from all the lies promulgated about Iraq, his study is very revealing.

Article follows

Raw story has a "developing" on who Woodward's source was in WH. Woodward got to spend some quality time with Fitzgerald.

Fitzmas part deaux maybe?

I wonder what Mr. Cheney's horoscope looked like this AM.

Posted by CAwaltz on November 16, 2005 at 03:53 PM

If only the american public would ask more questions about their candidates instead of getting herded like sheep by the likes of Foxspews.

MN DEM
It seems the bar is pretty low right now.

Last election was decided by who we thought we would be more likely to have a beer with.

Since the President is not likely to be inviting me to have a beer :) I prefer to go the more cerebral route and actually focus on issues that are important like Budget, Diplomacy, Health care reform etc.etc. I pray that the majority of the country feels the same this go round.

So what's going on today is nothing new. It's just the same old, same old.

Our last occupation

Gas, chemicals, bombs: Britain has used them all before in Iraq

In 1917, following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, the British occupied Iraq and established a colonial government. The Arab and Kurdish people of Iraq resisted the British occupation, and by 1920 this had developed into a full scale national revolt, which cost the British dearly. As the Iraqi resistance gained strength, the British resorted to increasingly repressive measures, including the use of posion gas.

Guardian

I wonder what Mr. Cheney's horoscope looked like this AM.

Posted by CAwaltz on November 16, 2005 at 03:56 PM

DOB 1-31-41

AQUARIUS

Wednesday, November 16, 2005
Your possible soulmate needs some advice. Do not be delusional about what this could mean. Be rational and steer this person closer to you with subtle promises of protection and assurances. Figure out the details later; emphasize seductive communication now.

Spain probes 'secret CIA flights'

Spain is launching an investigation into claims that CIA planes carrying terror suspects made secret stopovers on Spanish soil.
Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso made the announcement on Spanish television on Tuesday.

He said that if proven, such activities could damage relations between the Spanish and US governments.

more...BBC News

So does this mean that Cheney and Putin have a meeting today. Or is Putin only W's soulmate?

The newest member of the "Loose Lips" award goes to National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley. D'oh. Does anyone in this administration understand what the word CLASSIFIED means?

I have always found it incomprehensible that the "senior officials" in the WH, knew and referred to Wilson's wife only as "Mrs. Wilson".
Does anyone in their right mind believe that Chaney and Rove found out about Wilson's wife sending him to Niger, and didn't bother to find out any background on her??? I would bet my house that there is nothing they didn't find out about her, including her shoe size...Didn't know her name, yet right!!

The fact that they didn't refer to her my name is pretty revealing itself.

Last election was decided by who we thought we would be more likely to have a beer with.

If that was the case, I would have voted for Bush. Except that I would have had about a case of beer, turned into an angry drunk, and pummeled the hell out of him.

I still do that it my dreams sometimes :)

Last election was decided by who we thought we would be more likely to have a beer with.

Not that that's my criteria, but if it were, I still would have picked Kerry.

I suspect that Kerry could have a beer and still be able to carry on a semi-intelligent, semi-coherent conversation. I suspect Bush could not.

Big Lie Technique Revisited.

President says we all agreed on need for invasion of Iraq in 2003, had same intelligence as him.

November 15, 2005 – At a time when approximately 57 percent of Americans polled believe that President Bush deceived them on the reasons for the war in Iraq, it does seem a bit redundant to deconstruct the president's recent speeches on that subject. Yet, to fail to do so would be to passively accept the Big Lie technique – which is how we as a nation got into this horrible mess in the first place.

The basic claim of the president's desperate and strident attack on the war's critics this past week is that he was acting as a consensus president when intelligence information left him no choice but to invade Iraq as a preventive action to deter a terrorist attack on America. This is flatly wrong.

His rationalization for attacking Iraq, once accepted uncritically by most in Congress and the media easily intimidated by jingoism, now is known to be false. The bipartisan 9/11 commission selected by Bush concluded unanimously that there was no link between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's secular dictatorship, al Qaeda's sworn enemy. And a recently declassified 2002 document proves that Bush's "evidence" for this, available to top administration officials, was based on a single discredited witness.

Clearly on the defensive, Bush now sounds increasingly Nixonian as he basically calls the majority of the country traitors for noticing he tricked us.

more at...Robert Scheer.com

MnDem,

LOL

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/National_Security_Adviser_was_Woodwards_source_1116.html

Hadley story

PamB, the Iraq Liberation Act that Congress passed in 1998 and Clinton signed was Joe Lieberman's bill. Old Joe has wanted this war more than anything else in his life since the first Gulf war ended in 1991. He'll stab any Democrat in the back he can to help the Repugs keep this war going.
Posted by Domingo on November 16, 2005 at 03:41 PM

Oh, I agree 100% that Joe wanted this war! Not only is he a Hawk, but to protect Israel, he was only Too Too gung ho for the loss of 2069 US boys to do it.

And you were right on your DLC info too. I pulled out Minority Party last night, went to the index and referenced the pages of DLC. Appears From in 1993 approached Clinton as he was their ideal candidate - i.e. Southern, charismatic, etc, and sold him on their New Democrat ideas.

I will tell you though, I do not completely agree with this author on his review of the party nor what Democrats must do in order to win.

I hope y'all don't mind and think I'm trying to tear down who you feel passionate about.I'm still trying to figure out which candidate I identify with best. I'm trying to explore all the pluses and minuses of each. I definitely like Richardson over Warner but a little less then Feingold.

Posted by CAwaltz on November 16, 2005 at 03:53 PM

Christine, LOL

Were you here during the Primaries before last election, 2 years ago? OMG. There was less than polite debte on candidates that everyone was passionate about, Especially Dean's supporters.

If that was the case, I would have voted for Bush. Except that I would have had about a case of beer, turned into an angry drunk, and pummeled the hell out of him.

I still do that it my dreams sometimes :)
Posted by MNDem

Beer is too common a drug for someone as entirely common as Bush. My fantasy would involve getting him totally twisted on wormword (absinth)and then mess mightly with his mind, ala Doestoevsky's Grand Inquisitor, or something appropriate, guaranteed to leave him mumbling for quite a little while.

wormwood, the drink of choice of the impressionists and those inclined to cut off their ears

http://www.drclarkia.com/wormwood.asp

Yeah Pam, I was planning on warning you and never did. The author of that book Peter Brown thinks that the DLC way is the right way and praises it every chance he gets. He says the Democrat party lost White votes when Dukakis let Jesse Jackson speak at the Democratic National Convention and that Democrats should gett away from those blacks as fast as they can. He goes on to say that if Blacks don't vote it only counts as a loss to the party of one vote, but when we lose White voters, they go over to the Republican side and it's like losing two votes. The same way as when the Senate is fifty-fifty Dems and Repugs and Lieberman votes Repug everytime making all the Repug bills pass 51 to 49. He also tells them to give up on the workers, claiming they're a "loser" for Democrats too. Everything the Democrats stand for the DLC wants them to abandon. It's their belief that the Democrats can never win by doing what the Democratic voters want them to do, but only by doing what the Republican voters want them to do.

Nope, wasn't here in the primaries. I never really considered myself politically active until the Iraq War. My gut and W's seemed to have a difference of opinion. I felt from the get go that weapons inspectors should have been allowed to do their jobs. I guess you can credit GW with making me politically active.(I'd have a hard time coming up with anything else he's done that had a positive effect.) To his credit, I really did respect Senator Kerry. I still remain impressed with his public service. The guy is just a really abyssmal speaker. Transurgience.....heck I didn't even know what it meant and I'm a word buff. We need someone who is plainspoken.

Posted by Domingo on November 16, 2005 at 04:42 PM

Wow! This must be the Zell Miller part of the party. I sure hope we don't go there.

Posted by CAwaltz on November 16, 2005 at 03:20 PM

By contrast, New York is is one of the states that is at the bottom in terms of federal dollars received vice federal revenues paid (one of the reasons I was so pissed this morning about Congress and Bush yanking 9/11 aid), yet our credit rating is in the toilet. I suspect that the fact that we subsidize so much of the rest of the country has not helped us, financially speaking.

William,

I was shocked at the part, where the DLC came out with new thinking it tried to get the party to endorse. i.e. Questioned the wisdom of raising the minimum wage, called for increased use of incentives in welfare, requiring national service in return for federal college aid, and linking a worker's pay - to his firm's profitability!!!!!

That is Worse than Republican's views !!!

Not that anyone asked my position on potential Presidential candidates, but fwiw . . .

I still believe in John Kerry and would still support him without hesitation if he chooses to run again. He'd be my first choice. And yes, I realize that I'm in the minority on this blog in that regard.

My Tier 1-A candidates would be Edwards, Richardson and Feingold, not necessarily in that order.

Tier 2 would be Clark, Biden, Dean, Hillary, Gore and Warner, not necessarily in that order. Again, speculation that any of them would run, save possibly for Biden and Warner. I don't think Dean will resign the Party Chair to run again, and he's more effective where he is now, anyway. Being on Faux News won't help Clark, and he won't run against Hillary in any event. Hillary is electoral poison in red-state America. She has a chance to be a great Senator, however -- better, imho to keep her where she is.

In the end, though, I'll probably vote for whoever our nominee is, as I don't think you'll see anyone better emerge.

Terry,

Kerry is a great man, but unfortunetly, as Christine stated, I think his lack of being able to communicate with the average person is a drawback.

requiring national service in return for federal college aid,

I went to college during the Reagan Administration. Unfortunately, that means that I saw massive across-the-board cuts in financial aid. At the same time, they beefed up ROTC scholarships.

I have nothing against people choosing national service or ROTC for an education, but it should be voluntary. And the benefits for such a sacrifice should be pretty good.

See Pam, a lot of people don't understand why I get so irate with the DLC type people that come in here. Everything they advocate makes me sick. Of course they lie just like Republicans and try to make what they stand for sound like something else, so most folks have no idea what the DLC really stands for.

Posted by PamB on November 16, 2005 at 05:04 PM

You know, I never had a problem understanding what Kerry was saying. Then again, both he and I are attorneys, and I'm well aware that at times we speak our own language.

Kerry is a great man, but unfortunetly, as Christine stated, I think his lack of being able to communicate with the average person is a drawback.

Posted by PamB on November 16, 2005 at 05:04 PM

I'm about as average as they get & I understood him. But then, I don't have a problem with those more educated than me. (I mean "I") I have social skills power. ;)