You hit the nail right on the head with that post Tim, and covered all the bases.

Why are we not standing up with Jack Martha? He appears to be the only Democrat with a plan to get us out of the mess in Iraq.
If the Democrats continue to standby and allow two thousand more brave men and women die, they are as bad as Bush and his corporation buddies that took us into this mess.

Bush replied, "I don't think you can win it."
On September 20, 2001, Bush called the war on terrorism "a task that does not end."
A few days earlier, Cheney said, "There's not going to be an end date when we're going to say, 'There, it's all over with.''

Why is the pathetic DNC sitting around whining about what Mehlman said and not throwing Bush's & Cheney's own word right back in their lying faces? Is there anyone with balls left at the DNC?

Well David,

I think I pointed the Bush quote out yesterday.

Tim

We lost in Iraq long ago. I am proud of Howard Dean for being outspoken on the subject. Now our other Democrats need to step up and stand up for what is right.

In this case the true patriot is the one speaking the truth about things that are hurting us.

Keep it up, Dr. Dean. Now to donate again. You are going to break our budget if you keep speaking up.

As Governor Dean has pointed out, Washington's definition of a lie is when you tell an uncomfortable truth.

He's getting attacked for this? Seemed pretty common-sense to me. Time to buy more Democracy Bonds! Little does Ken Mehlman now he's effectively become the DNC's largest donor these days...

this is a post from the Open thread, in a discussion on what Howard was saying! anyone interested in listening, can go into the Open Thread, and click on the audio link.

Howdy, if you're still around. Drudge is not exactly what one could call fair or unbiased. If you listen to the interview, (especially starting around the 7 minute mark) you will see that the context of that comment is that Dean was saying that THE IRAQIS will have to win the War, not the US winning it for them
AUDIO OF DEAN INTERVIEW

Quite a different thing, wouldn't you say?

Posted by DPD on December 6, 2005 at 12:35 PM

Howard Dean is right.

The insurgency will be there for a long long time. If victory means no more insurgency then it is unwinnable.

England had IRA up until 2000's
India has Kashmir
Russia has the Chechnya
Latin America --Columbia-FARC, Mexico, Guatamela
Philippines--communists and muslim insurgency

My take is : After the elections, US should then exit and announce that they are proud they tried their best with the blood of 2000+ soldiers and $300B to install Democracy and it is time now for Iraq to make the most out of it.

US will still help with special forces. Iraq and its new leadership should formally ask its Arab neighbors and UN to send reinforcements if needed.

But I think US should just be proud of its accomplishment and exit with its head held up high.

Murtha this morning on Today show:

Pennsylvania congressman John Murtha on Today show: "... let me point out my difference between the White House, the administration and myself -- first of all, the way they lump terrorism with insurgency. Terrorism started in Afghanistan. We had every legitimate right to go into Afghanistan. Bin Laden says he attacked Saudi Arabia because we had troops still in Saudi Arabia. That's terrorism -- London, terror in Spain. But insurgency is what we're facing in Iraq, and that's the thing that worries me. They don't discriminate between the two. "

so MANY out there, still do not know the difference between Terrorists (7%) and Insurgents (93%) of those that are fighting. Insurgents are just Iraqis, folks, that mainly are trying to get rid of the US occupation. That is why we must get out!

Hey, Mehlman's respons was the least of it.

Look at this:

Michael Reagan, son of the late President Ronald Reagan, is blasting Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean for declaring that the U.S. won't be able to win the war in Iraq, saying Dean ought to be "hung for treason."

"Howard Dean should be arrested and hung for treason or put in a hole until the end of the Iraq war!" Reagan told his Radio America audience on Monday.

Next thing you know, Chairman Dean will be sent to one of their gulags. The Republican flacks don't like for anyone to expose the nakedness of their Fearless Leader.

If we stack up the number of statements that Gov. Dean has made that has inspired official "outrage"... but later turned out to be accurate, or even prescient... and compare them with all of the erronious predictions Deadly Peril and Glorious Victory made by this administration, its pretty obvious who has the better judgement.

I may just need to throw a few more dollars at the DNC in support of its outspoken chairman.

True Lies

Beautifully said, Tim!

Very well-crafted piece. Thanks for the audio, too. It's nice to have these clips up.

How is this election going in California?

Fade,

We'll start finding out in about four hours. I'll be well out of the office, unfortunately, but will have an open thread up with a link to the live election results.

Tim

I read Tim's posting and see more of the same. Criticism only...no suggested solutions! As far as I am concerned this is the easy way out. If you don't have a better idea with specifics then you are just a blowhard.

History is replete with mistakes and second-guessing by critics. What stands out in this country's history are the leaders who were willing to act in the face of withering criticism for principles and ideas that they felt were above the political fray. Those things that were done for the betterment of the country.

We live and function in an MTV world. Everything has a 30 minute half-life. This conflict with Islamo-terrorism doesn't fit into that mold. Expecting it to is woefully naive and actually dangerous.

Look around you, the overwhelming majority of hot conflicts on the globe are rooted in Islamic radical terrorism. How do we confront that? Negotiation, isolation, boycott, acceptance or a combination of all these. All of those approaches brought us to where we are today. Europe is a prime example of what the USA will become by conducting ourselves in the same fashion.

Standing up to these thugs is the only choice we have. It is an ugly prospect but turning away doesn't make it any less ugly.

Leadership by example will create the momentum to eventually push these terrorists back into the shadows. Show some courage, stand up for our way of life and be willing to get your hands dirty. The rules of engagement are forever changed.

Great job Tim!!! Are you from CT by chance? We're looking for someone to run against Joe Liberman.

As Murtha pointed out, almost half the people in Iraq believe that killing U.S. troops is justified. They believe that despite the fact that Iraqis are usually killed in the process of killing Americans.

The day the last U.S. soldier leaves, Iraqis will have no ready excuse for turning a blind eye to the destruction of their insurgent friends and neighbors.

Every day the administration (and Democrats like Joe Liberman) crawl deeper into their spider hole of illusion is one more day victory is delayed.

They may as well define victory as the day school children across Iraq start their day with the pledge of allegience - because that's how long it's going to take if we continue to follow the path we're on.

Dorsano,

I am from Chicago, but often claim Ohio because I lived there for the past 2 years of my life--basically since I really started to get involved.

Maybe 2010 I'll take the good doctor up on running for something myself.

Tim

The Fighting Dems are Kicking Ass

Howard Dean is Kicking Ass

John Murtha is Kicking Ass

the bush administration made too many mistakes at the beginning of the Iraq war
mistake number one was they lied
not enough troops to win the peace
not listening to Gen Shinsaki and Powell
Now, we CAN NOT win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, thanks to all the mistakes the bush administration has made

YOU BREAK IT YOU OWN IT

Leadership by example will create the momentum to eventually push these terrorists back into the shadows. Show some courage, stand up for our way of life and be willing to get your hands dirty. The rules of engagement are forever changed.

Posted by PointerSATX on December 6, 2005 at 06:49 PM

Hey Pointer,

REAL leadership is the ability to recognize and act on true acts of terrorism. Bush and Co.are so inept, they have now even screwed up Afghanistan. They cannot fight the Poppy trade, so they are going to allow it for medicinial purposes:

http://atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/GK16Ag01.html

They cannot fight the Taliban, so they are going to 'negotiate' with them

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/GK22Ag02.html

THIS is the administration you want to side with? Does it make you feel nice and warm and safe to be on that side? Maybe you didn't see the 9/11 report card on this administration yesterday, all "F's". This administration has not made us One bit safer.

But you just keep being part of that 35% who still believe that this administration is fighting a war on Terrorism! Keep your mind closed. You keep drinking that Red Koolaid. You keep letting Bush be whatever fantasy you want him to be, so you don't have to face the Reality---- you were suckered, buddy! This administration counts on, and laughs at those small minded little guys like you, who buy their lies, hook line and sinker.

Another Bush Lie........

The training of Iraqi security forces has suffered a big "setback" in the last six months, with the army and other forces being increasingly used to settle scores and make other political gains, Iraqi Vice President Ghazi al-Yawer said Monday.

Al-Yawer disputed contentions by U.S. officials, including President Bush, that the training of security forces was gathering speed, resulting in more professional troops.

http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/2209

SATX We know how you feel but....
It is time to get clever as the fox. Being surrounded like some wagontrain is not good cowboy logic now , is it? Do you think Patton would put his guys in the target zone like that?
Re read the Dems proposals and ideas - again all on these pages there are links and information to many stragegies. Do some homework...
Any plans are better than what IS, like a strong presence with strike force on the horizon for example....enough said.
Repugs, continue reading....
Thank goodness for brave free speakers with experience, character, brains and courage....
Instead of laying off good teachers who know history, why don't more Repugs learn to do some reading and research. Perhaps the logical lightbulb will go off and they will see some new ability to reason in realistic sensibility, things like violence begets more violence, the consequences of war and global warming....or will that happen when schoolchildren across Iraq start their day with the pledge of allegiance, if so it will be when the US is under a glacier for Hell will have frozen over in a nuclear winter.
If you all get kicks continuing your creation of the Armageddon myth with your all powerful egos, so it will be, Solomon, Jesus who threw over the tables of the money changers, and no gold or silver coin will save you either. Get real. The Crusaders got the hell out of Acre - it seems they knew more about reality than these idealists. It's time for a change.
You've all had fun with a cute little show, Now Get clever for a REAL defense that works for America, not some money making speculation or phoney cooked book recipe.
After the exposure about the Republican congressional and administrative failing grades regarding the 9/11 commission - I do not think any Americans with a light bulb or a brain or eyes to see and ears to hear...are convinced of Repug loyalty any more.
Its time for the real commanders to take back America. They would have never let us get into this mess the last five plus years in the first place. All the worst things imaginable, the corruption and blunders, have happened since the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004. That has endangered the U.S. more than anything...with friends like that who the h. needs enemies and who has a leg to stand on when fingerpointing...Dean treasonous? Democrats do not send prisoners off to torture camps in foreign countries on private jets. It is both treasonous, and criminal.
Better look in the mirror, since the Repubs have had the full majority for years now, only they can take the blame for everything blocked or passed. Its that simple. So just how much more do you want to sacrifice out there? Can you not see that it is time for a change, that this bunch of incompetents has misled all of you? I don't know how many zillions of times I heard that soundbite slogan...Blame Game, you really got the knack of it didn't you, it was all the righteous fad, blame game this blame game that until we all thought we would just wretch if we had to hear it again...no explanations, no story, just blame game this and that(all with the pointy fingers and gossip mouths)...well now it is pretty clear which hysterical senseless pork and beans have been spewed out on the big table for all to see. Every time the true colors come out the ugly contradictions are revealed in shouting matches and Repugs are hanging in their own spin.
Move on to the facts and find your way out of the moneyMammon making bubble...money comes from human and natural resources, it is not the other way around. Its called "Where's the Mammon, stupid"....Get out of the phoney right wing cult and get liberated. Better yet, get educated.

Tim,

They have a credibility problem that no public relations ploy is going to remedy.

Their standard "let's divert attention from our own failures by accusing others of what we have been are doing all along" is just not going to work after Schivo, Katrina, Murtha, and the exposure of our secret torture gulags in Europe.

What's even worse is that everyone knows that the Vice President is the architech and main apologist for this policy. While the President insists that that he's still not aware of what's been going on under his very nose for three years. Either he's stupid, lying, or on drugs.

Mehlmann's mock outrage over Dean and Kerry's comments makes him look like a parody of himself. He could be an actor is a Saturday Night Live skit. He even must have to laugh at himself after reviewing his recent performaces on television.

What we know, and they are not prepared yet to accept, is that their policies were flawed from the start. The fact that they are finally being exposed as failures was inevitable.

It's pretty sad when no one from this administration can go anywhere in this country or outside of it without being accused of incompetence, torture, or corruption. And the top Republican Congressional leaders aren't any better. They are either under investigation by the feds or on trial.

I guess Mehlmann has to laugh or he'd be crying.

Howard Dean attacked for telling the truth...

News at 11:00. At least this time it is the republican crybabies, not the appeasement wing of the democratic party.

It is enheartening to see the Dems finally standing up. I'd like to see them take the lead in proposing some way out of Iraq despite the fact that any plan will meet with spin and vitriol. The country is crying out for leadership and pointing out the nakedness of the emperor only takes you so far. The more the wingnuts scream, the more you know you are hurting them.

It seems that the Hillary wing of the party has frozen this path so that she can look tough on defense. I admire her and respect her and think she would be the worst person to run in 08. She is a lightning rod for wingnut hate fantasies. And, I have to say, this flag burning admendment is stupid. Spend some time on things that matter rather than symbolic efforts that appeal to people who will hate you until their dying breath.

There is a fundamental message being lost here that President Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld keeps pushing every month. Each public admission that Terror is Fear #1 seems more like Terror-Baiting than handing Iraq back to the Iraqis. Where's the powder-puff tidbits saying the Iraqi Government is Strong and Resolute? Where's the Mutual Respect and Admiration Society for the Iraqi citizens?

It's an unfortunate choice of words to say that we should pull the troops out of Iraq. The vacuum would be destructive. Instead, we should pull back our troops to Military bases, except to perform missions which restore law & order.

Rumsfeld is under a mistaken impression that ordinary Iraqi citizens will lift a phone and call USA-TIPS to report evildoers. How about letting them call their own 911 system and have their police do the job.

That, my friends, is called an Exit Strategy.

I appreciate Governor Dean offering criticism of the war, and the President's misguided policy's. But I think there is a tragic mistake in this and I say this as a Democrat with a brother headed for military service.

The words "we cannot win in Iraq" are what filter through the media into every American home. If Howard is right, and we cannot win what comes after we go?

The rapid responce force sounds like a great plan on paper, but the enemy knows all our tricks and our vunerabilities and how to cause us great pain, namely with IEDs, if we were needed in Iraq the rapid responce force of 20,000 could quickly find itself outnumbered and outgunned deep in hostile territory.

When we let the insurgents build up they fortify entrench and supply themselves for the fight ahead and the cost in American lives to drive them out climbs. We saw it in Fallujah last year when Bush delayed the attack to keep his appearance clean for "reelection", we'll see it again on a much broader scale here.

We either need to change the course *see Wes Clark's NYT op ed* or we need fully admit we've got our asses handed to us and begin containment proceedures to keep the mess that is Bush's Iraq from spilling into the whole region. If we did send American troops back in there in this small rapid responce force the result would be a slaughter, IEDs and snipers lurking at every corner and gurrila attacks on supply lines, and I mean constantly, like back in Sadr's uprising last spring, nothing against Murtha I just want my brother home in one peice after military service.

Gen. Clark says we can pull out about 30,000 troops after the Iraqi election and still win this thing if we can get his plan through. I think we should take that. But if we say "we cannot win in Iraq" and adopt a policy along those lines we have to accept the reality that comes with that. That reality being that Iran will receive a massive territorial extension and threaten our regional allies. And 20,000 troops won't stop the Iranians from having their way with Iraq given the infilration that has already taken place.

If we conceed that "we cannot win" in Iraq we need a policy of containment like we had for Saddam in the 90s only stronger. If not we need to follow Clark's plan and fix this giant mess while we still can. But Murtha's plan with all due respect is going to get a lot of fine young American's killed if we follow it to the letter, mark my words if we leave now the rapid responce force will be deployed later and when they are it will be a massacare.

Gov. Dean tell them all to kiss your *ss. If winning this war simply meant beating a country, then we've already won in Iraq. Since it doesn't, we haven't won and can't win because insurgencies are about ideals. Hitler tried to kill ideals in the concentration camps. He couldn't do it neither can Bush.

Transcript of the Dean Interview

http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/deanint.mp3

By Joe Pags, Bob Guthrie, Stan Kelly of WOAI San Antonio

WOAI: I wanted to ask you about one thing first, and that's the issue of whether the intelligence was good or bad going into Iraq.. that was something that was really hard fought by John Kerry and by the president in the last campaign and call me crazy, I'm not a lobbyist, I'm not a Democrat or Republican when it comes to pushing for politics, but why bring that up again when that was so thoroughly gone through last time?

Dean: Well because it wasn't thoroughly gone through. What's happening now, oddly enough is there's so many parallels to the Vietnam era that it's a little scary. What we see is very much like what was going on in Watergate. The Watergate burglary for example happened before the election but the president wasn't forced to resign until afterwards because there was so much additional information. Now it turns out there's a lot of good evidence that the president didn't tell the truth when he was asking Congress to give him the power to go to war, but a lot of that didn't come out until after the election was over. So I think that what the president's finding now is now that the election is over and the sort of the he-said she-said nature of the discussion is gone, there's a whole big body of evidence that suggests that the president was not truthful with the American people, pretty convincing evidence and that's why it's all coming back up again now.

WOAI: Is congressman's John Murtha's demand that all US troops be withdrawn from Iraq, is that in the mainstream of democratic party philosophy now?

Dean: Well he actually didn't demand that at all, he didn't even use the word withdrawal and I don't use the word withdrawal either. I think we need a strategic re-deployment over a period of 2 years. What John was basing his discussion on was a report by Lawrence Korb who's actually a defense department official with the Reagan Administration. He has a way of getting out of Iraq which I think makes a lot of sense and I think the Democrats will coalesce around it. Basically he says bring the 80,000 guardsmen home. They don't belong in a conflict like this anyway...

WOAI: He did say re-deploying you're absolutely right about the terminology, but he also did say 6 months, whereas you're saying in a couple of years, Nancy Pelosi's saying 6 months, and some other major democrats are saying a couple of years. If I'm on the fence whether I'm going to be a Democrat or Republican or how I'm going to vote coming up in the next election, I'm not really sure what you guys are saying. Is there a specific time frame that you want to tell us today about when that redeployment should happen?

Dean: I think as you just pointed out, there's not unanimity among the Democrats right now, but the big difference between the Democrats and Republicans is that the president wants to make a permanent commitment to to a failed strategy and what we want to do is to have a strategy to protect American troops. I believe, and I believe this is ultimately where the Democratic party is going to come out, is we ought to bring the guardsmen home now, over the next 6 months.. that's 80,000 guardsmen and reserves, and we ought to have a redployment to Afghanistan of 20,000 troops where we don't have enough troops to do the job, and we need a force in the middle east to stay there but not in Iraq, in a friendly neighboring country so we can deal with the problem of Zarqawi, who came to Iraq after this invasion. We've got to get this target off the backs of American troops. This is an Iraqi problem.. I grant you the president made it much worse, but we cannot have our troops being the targets there and that's what the problem is now. 80% of Iraqis think we ought to leave. It's their country. President Bush got rid of Saddam Hussein, that was a great thing, but that could have been done in a very different way. But now that we're there, we've got to figure out how to leave, because we cannot have a permanent commitment. I remember when we went through this in Vietnam. Everybody kept saying, just another year and we're going to have a victory. Well we didn't have a victory then and it cost us 25,000 more American troops because the people were too stubborn to be truthful about what was happening...

WOAI: Governor, I've heard you say that 80% of the Iraqis want us out, I've heard other people say it, who exactly is doing this polling, how do we know that's a fact, and if you would, when you say the president didn't tell the truth about the intelligence, well then we would have , and I know you would agree with this because it's true, then Hillary Clinton didn't tell the truth and John Kerry didn't tell the truth and and all of the senators and congresspeople who also voted for this and saw the same intelligence they weren't telling the truth. Don't you have to assume that as well?

Dean: They didn't see the same intelligence. That's also something the president said last week that wasn't true. They did not see the same intelligence.. The president said they did. That's flat out wrong. You don't have to take my word for it.. I'm a partisan. Go take a look at the 9/11 commission which was headed by a Republican, Tom Kean. In fact he just had a big piece out this morning saying that not only was the president not accurate, but that he hasn't done the things recommended by the 9/11 commission to to keep us safe here at home.

WOAI: I promise I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to be as factual as I can as far as the last election cycle. Now there is a Senate intelligence committee, there is a house intelligence committee. These people certainly were privy to this intelligence that the president is hanging his hat on, and they're saying that the intelligence was there and that they followed what the intelligence was and that the intelligence was bad. You're saying the president didn't tell the truth. Is there a difference?

Dean: Yes the president withheld some of the intelligence from the intelligence committee. He withheld reports from the CIA that said there was no evidence that there were weapons of mass destruction, that they did not have a nuclear program. He withheld the reports from the CIA that said there was no meeting between Saddam.... They selectively gave intelligence to the US Senate and Congress. The senators themselves that you've named have said if they had been given the full intelligence there would have never been a vote to go into Iraq because there was no evidence that Iraq was a threat to the United States. The 9/11 commission agreed with that.. Don't take my word for it, take the Republicans who ran the 9/11 commission's word for it.

WOAI: We've got one more question for you, Stan? Governor Dean, the key to eventually getting the US forces out of Iraq is going to be having the Iraqis doing a better job of defending themselves and taking a greater role. Are we on the right track to achieving that goal?

Dean:.. Well I think our military's working very hard to do that, but let's not forget. This is ultimately what America had to do in Vietnam. Ultimately we said we're going to turn this over to the Vietnamese and of course the South Vietnamese couldn't manage to take care of their own country. I supported the first President Bush's war in Iraq, I supported this president Bush's war in Afghanistan but I do not believe in making the same mistake twice and America appears to have made the same mistake twice. I wish the president had paid more attention to the history of Iraq before we had gotten in there. The idea that we're going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong. I've seen this before in my life and it cost us 25,000 brave American soldiers and I don't want to go down that road again. We need to maintain a presence in the area so we can deal with terrorism but not in Iraq.

Who said...

Things aren't getting better; they're getting worse. The White House is completely disconnected from reality. It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq.

a) Dean
b) Murtha
c) Pelosi
d) none of the above

If you chose d, then you are right. Those words were spoken by Republican Senator Chuck Hagel. Where's the GOP outrage?

I agree, but the Dems are on Howard's ass again.

Go to these links and tell them to grow a spine and to quit back stabbing Gov. Dean.
http://housedemocrats.gov/contact/index.cfm This link will take you to House Democrats. It isn't clear if its for the site or in general, but it has an "in general". Even if it is for the site, send enough and the tech will pass it on.

http://www.dscc.org/ This one will take you to Senate Dems. - even has a blog - you can post your comments "PUBLICLY".

Then "hit the bat" for Gov. Dean and donate to the DNC....Even if it is only $5.01. Make sure you make it odd cents so they know it comes from the blogosphere. Been hitting the bat all day at Kos. They need to know we are out here, we are watching them, and we will make the Dems accountable.

We know Dean is right but who needs Republicans when you have Democrats like Rep. Marshall. This is his quote in the Washingtonpost today:

"Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful," said Rep. Jim Marshall (D-Ga.),

The Democratic Party cannot get it into their thick heads that as long as they attack each other and continue to have a 100 different voices and opinions, we'll always look like a disorganized party with no solutions.

Between the war, the corruption, the gas prices, the American public seems ripe for a party with a conscience and confidence. Instead we provide more ammo to the Republicans by attacking each other.

By now we know, simply from observing the Republicans, public perception is often more important than the truth. And as long our Democratic leaders keep shifting the negative public focus away from the Republicans, we'll continue shoot ourselves in the foot.

We know Dean is right but who needs Republicans when you have Democrats like Rep. Marshall. This is his quote in the Washingtonpost today:

"Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful," said Rep. Jim Marshall (D-Ga.),

The Democratic Party cannot get it into their thick heads that as long as they attack each other and continue to have a 100 different voices and opinions, we'll always look like a disorganized party with no solutions.

Between the war, the corruption, the gas prices, the American public seems ripe for a party with a conscience and confidence. Instead we provide more ammo to the Republicans by attacking each other.

By now we know, simply from observing the Republicans, public perception is often more important than the truth. And as long our Democratic leaders keep shifting the negative public focus away from the Republicans, we'll continue shoot ourselves in the foot.

Hmmm,

Seems someone else is in complete agreement with Chairman Dean:

(Reuters 12/07/05) Zawahri said the United States had suffered a defeat in Iraq and it was only a matter of time before it pulled out its troops.

"Iraq is a catastrophe for America and Americans will leave, it will only be a matter of time.

"I say to Bush: You entered Iraq with lies, you will lose Iraq and lie about it and you will leave with the pretext that you have completed your mission. . . . America only has to decide on the number of (troops) it wishes to lose before withdrawing."

Glad you're all happy with Dean's comments too.

I would have said “the Bush administration is turning our victory into a defeat by insisting on remaining when the Iraqi people do not want us there and we have accomplished our objectives.”

I wrote and had publish something very similar in the Houston Chronicle.

Dean’s “The idea that we are going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong” depends on how you define winning this war. That may be a debate Democrats want but the Democratic Party itself hasn't had.

My Chronicle letter:

Chron.com | Letters: Murtha's motion to leave

President Bush and his administration are turning victory into defeat! We went to war to remove Saddam Hussein from power and he is no longer in power. We went to war because of possible weapons of mass destruction and have found there aren't any. We went to war to bring democracy to the people of Iraq, and in a few weeks they will elect their new government. We have won. It is time to declare victory and go home.

I am proud of U.S. Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., for addressing these issues. Our magnificent troops fought well; it is time they came home to their reward.

Already, 45 percent of Iraqis approve of attacks on coalition forces as occupiers. Over 80 percent have said we should leave next year; they think we are making the situation worse. I believe them. The longer we stay, the more we will be hated. By declaring victory and leaving, we show that we can go to war honorably and can leave with honor. To do otherwise is to confirm the claims that it was all about oil and control.

GARY DENTON Pasadena, TX

I would have said “the Bush administration is turning our victory into a defeat by insisting on remaining when the Iraqi people do not want us there and we have accomplished our objectives.”

I wrote and had publish something very similar in the Houston Chronicle.

Dean’s “The idea that we are going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong” depends on how you define winning this war. That may be a debate Democrats want but the Democratic Party itself hasn't had.

Chron.com | Letters: Murtha's motion to leave

President Bush and his administration are turning victory into defeat! We went to war to remove Saddam Hussein from power and he is no longer in power. We went to war because of possible weapons of mass destruction and have found there aren't any. We went to war to bring democracy to the people of Iraq, and in a few weeks they will elect their new government. We have won. It is time to declare victory and go home.

I am proud of U.S. Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., for addressing these issues. Our magnificent troops fought well; it is time they came home to their reward.

Already, 45 percent of Iraqis approve of attacks on coalition forces as occupiers. Over 80 percent have said we should leave next year; they think we are making the situation worse. I believe them. The longer we stay, the more we will be hated. By declaring victory and leaving, we show that we can go to war honorably and can leave with honor. To do otherwise is to confirm the claims that it was all about oil and control.

GARY DENTON Pasadena, TX

I would have said “the Bush administration is turning our victory into a defeat by insisting on remaining when the Iraqi people do not want us there and we have accomplished our objectives.”

I wrote and had publish something very similar in the Houston Chronicle.

Dean’s “The idea that we are going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong” depends on how you define winning this war. That may be a debate Democrats want but the Democratic Party itself hasn't had.

Chron.com | Letters: Murtha's motion to leave

President Bush and his administration are turning victory into defeat! We went to war to remove Saddam Hussein from power and he is no longer in power. We went to war because of possible weapons of mass destruction and have found there aren't any. We went to war to bring democracy to the people of Iraq, and in a few weeks they will elect their new government. We have won. It is time to declare victory and go home.

I am proud of U.S. Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., for addressing these issues. Our magnificent troops fought well; it is time they came home to their reward.

Already, 45 percent of Iraqis approve of attacks on coalition forces as occupiers. Over 80 percent have said we should leave next year; they think we are making the situation worse. I believe them. The longer we stay, the more we will be hated. By declaring victory and leaving, we show that we can go to war honorably and can leave with honor. To do otherwise is to confirm the claims that it was all about oil and control.

GARY DENTON Pasadena, TX

As the man who should have been President, John Kerry, says:

We need a Commander-In-Chief not a Campaigner-In-Chief. The Bush-League needs to put his glossy PR campaign away and get to work work. But, that won't happen so the Pugs need to get beat in 2006!

Things aren't getting better; they're getting worse. The White House is completely disconnected from reality. It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq.

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The Re-Thugs are hypocrites. They hate it when Dems justly criticize them but it's okay coming from one of their own (interpretation - the RNC will quietly beat on Hagel). That is one difference between Re-Thugs and Dems. The Re-Thugs argue with each other behind the scenes, the Dems beat each other up publicly. I rather have the latter than the former. There is no need for the Dems to present a uniform face. There is room for honest debate. Of course, we should have a platform that all Dems back ... still waiting, still waiting, still waiting ...