OUR OCCUPYING FORCE IN IRAQ IS A FAILURE----P.E.R.I.O.D.!!!!!

IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST

IMPEACH ARBUSTO - BUSHCO - BUSHISTA - BUHS - SHRUB - CHIMPY - MONKEY BOY NEXT!!!!!

Ok,

This is the last F***ing straw. The Democrats are truly living up to the cowardly name that the right wing gives them. The vote yesterday on Iraq just showed again how Democrats are playing not to lose instead of win. I am sick to my stomache.

OK DEMOCRATS, IF YOU DON"T WANT TO GET OUT OF IRAQ. THEN WHAT THE F**K ARE WE GOING TO DO IN IRAQ!!!!! COME UP WITH AN ORIGINAL PLAN TO DO WHAT WE NEED TO!!! YOU ARE ALL WORTHLESS!!!!

In listening to various talk shows like Dianne Rheem on NPR and others on TV it seems like the consensus is that the Democrats have not found a way to coherently attack the Administration on their Iraq policy. They seem to splinter and founder on the question of 'What would the Dems do if in control.' The answer is a mish mash that either sounds like the Republican answer or sounds like surrender.
A proposal:
When asked that respond with:
First we are going to get rid of the incompetent, arrogant bunglers who are responsible for the mess in Iraq. Rumsfeld, Cheney et al. The ones who talked to the Military commanders but did not Listen to them. The ones who naievly thought that we would be weclomed as liberators, who thougt they could disband the Iraq army and send all those fighters into the streets with no jobs or support without consequence, who thought Iraq oil would pay for all reconstruction -- now there is a couple hundred billion dollar miscalulation -- and we are going to replace them with competent people who will listen, who will uphold American values such as not holding people indefinitly in prison camps, will not wink at torture or send weak mixed messages on how we treat prisoners while condemning others for similar policies. We will replace them with people who have actually fought in war and know what it is like to be in combat and be shot at and to have to kill, to see your buddies die. Our people will not send our men out without the best body armor and equipment this country can provide while they sit in their safe cushy offices pontificating on how sacrifices must be made.
If we had been elected in 2004 this country would not be in this horribly bungled mess in the first place, but if you want it cleaned up you need to put some people in place who are competent and who will put American values first and foremost in the policies they put in place here at home and in American Foreign Policy.

Hammer it home -- they are incompetent, they are arrogane, they bungled it horribly, they trample on American values in their policies both at home and abroad, they are an embarrassment. Time for a change -- time to vote for Competence and American Values and those who will promote them in deeds and policies - not just with lipsyched platitudes.

Things are looking up, dems. Just think, if the discussion on Iraq was divisive as it was today two years ago....dick cheney and W would have the whole party arrested and sent to Gitmo, where they would have to listen to Pat Robertson tell us how we're all going to hell and watch him lift 2000 lbs !!!! And, I heard a Dixie Chicks song on the radio this morning.

People are tired of losing their civil liberties in the name of "war on terror". And even the moral majority is tired of the "war on the environment".

I am so happy that today 150 Democrats and a few Republicans opposed the House resolution on Iraq. It shows that their is at least some common sense in the world.

Now we have to develop a strategy to counter the President's propaganda. First, those that oppose the war must make the case that Iraq is a civil war between Shia, Sunni's and Kurds. This is the driving force behind the violence and instability and why our efforts their are not working. The President has tried to blame Al Queda for the violence when they make up a very small percentage of the insurgents. Two, widen the focus of the debate. Too often the President has been allowed to focus on Iraq while the wider conflict against islamic extremism has been ignored. If you can believe it the wider war is a bigger failure then what we have been doing in Iraq. It should be pointed out that Bush's war has increased extremism and weakened our position in the world. Al Queda and its offshoots are spreading around the globe and gaining in popularity and influence. Just look at the recent arrests in Canada and elections in Iran and Palestine. The Iraq war has to be shown for what it truly is: a costly, bloody diversion that is making it more likely that their we be another 9/11.

I am so happy that today 150 Democrats and a few Republicans opposed the House resolution on Iraq. It shows that their is at least some common sense in the world.

Now we have to develop a strategy to counter the President's propaganda. First, those that oppose the war must make the case that Iraq is a civil war between Shia, Sunni's and Kurds. This is the driving force behind the violence and instability and why our efforts their are not working. The President has tried to blame Al Queda for the violence when they make up a very small percentage of the insurgents. Two, widen the focus of the debate. Too often the President has been allowed to focus on Iraq while the wider conflict against islamic extremism has been ignored. If you can believe it the wider war is a bigger failure then what we have been doing in Iraq. It should be pointed out that Bush's war has increased extremism and weakened our position in the world. Al Queda and its offshoots are spreading around the globe and gaining in popularity and influence. Just look at the recent arrests in Canada and elections in Iran and Palestine. The Iraq war has to be shown for what it truly is: a costly, bloody diversion that is making it more likely that their we be another 9/11.

You Democrats make me sick. Always bitching about whats going wrong with the war, never recognizing progress, calling for an exit but never providing an exit strategy. I think most democrats would love to see us perform horribly in Iraq just to rip Bush. Forget the fact that we have removed a dictator who has killed thousands of his own people and replaced him with an elected government. Democracy isn't built over night and it takes blood and sweat. Not a three year try and then a pull-out because its tough. What kind of cowardly Americans are you?

One more thing, Bush never said the main cause of the insurgency in Iraq was Al Queda, but rebel Iraqi's. And if you think that extremism is worse in the world because of the war, you are surely mistaken. Al Queda is on the run, their key leaders are in hiding. How does this make us less safe? The arrests in Canada don't prove that their is more danger, it proves that the intelligence community is more effective and effecient than ever before. Prior to 9/11, they probably would have slipped under the radar and committed some atrocity.

To Whom It May Concern:

Within the past year I switched from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party. Because of the ridiculous direction the Democratic Party is going toward I am now considering becoming an independent. Between the fact that the party is ignoring the immigration problem as a problem and continuing to ignore the H1 visa problem is enough to get me sick in the stomach.

As far as the war in Irag is concerned. I was not thrilled about us going into Iraq in the first place. However, once you commit to going to war you have to follow it through, otherwise the void that will exist in Iraq will be worst for us and the rest of the world in the long run. The point is that if you are going to go to war you must commit fully to that war. You cannot fight a war like Bush is attempting with every soldier fighting with two hands tied behind his or her back. You cannot worry about who gets hurt if you suspect an enemy stronghold. You have to hit it with almost everything you have. If possible, you want to minimize civilan casualties, but never at the expense of our men and women because that is exactly what the enemy is counting on you doing. If we really wanted to, we could end this war within months. We continue to make the same mistakes we made in Viet Nam and that is not doing what is necessary to win.

If the Democratic Party had any sense, they would move in the direction suggested above. However, just like the immigration policy and the H1 Visa policy this party is missing an opportunity to take a stand that would safeguard the welfare of U.S. citizens.

Phillysc,

You seem to forget that the dems are the MINORITY in congress and in the senate. We can put forward bills and amendments, however, the republicans won't allow anything if they don't think it will benefit those who pay them...ie. large corporations.

It will be our loss if you change to independent, however, you need to watch more than fox news and the msm, read articles on-line if you want the REAL truth, don't allow the republican spoon-fed press to form your opinion!

WE ARE FIGHTING!

As for immigration, that is a problem that has been around ever since the reagan admin gave them a "free pass" in the 80's, imho it should NOT be at the top of the agenda now. Let us regain power, clean up the financial and constitutional messes that the GOP has saddled ALL OF AMERICA with first!

The cause of the insurgency in Iraq and the cause of the hatred of the US around the world is EXTREMISM..whether it is the Islamic Fundamentalists or the Right wing Christian zealots that are trying to alter our bill of rights here in the USA. How can we foster democracy over there when our democracy here is under attack by the Bush administration? Yeah we are always bitching about the war because we do not see the successes..why do we not see or hear Iraqi citizens thanking us? Why do we not see new schools and power plants coming back on line? FOX and NBC LOVE the Bush administration..why aren't they sharing reports on the successes?
I believe our special ops forces are the best in the world and had Bush wanted to...Saddam could have been removed without the destruction to Iraq and innocent children being killed.

Dems the economy needs to be the focus! I am not better off than I was in 2000. I feel great anxiety at the thought of the Republicans continuing to let our government be run by corporations.
I don't feel any safer since 9/11. Funds were just cut for homeland security in a major target..New York. First Responders are still not funded properly in communities all over our country and Bush cut funding to help communities hire more police officers.
This President and Congress proposed education reforms without putting the dollars behind it. They based analysis of school success or failure on one annual test score! One test! All they have done is the old "trickle down" The Fed dollars for education are cut so the states cut leaving me with a higher property tax bill while big business continues to indulge their executives and board members with golden parachutes. The administration and congress encourage corporations to go off shore and outsource, and avoid paying their fare share in taxes as "good business" And I don't by the "unemployment" rate statistics as a true barometer of unemployment..they only report on the people who still have unemployment benefits!
If the Supreme Court had ruled for the People in 2000 we would not be at war in Iraq because we would be much farther ahead in diminishing America's "addiction to oil." We would have seen the alternative fuels industry expand and Americans pursuing jobs in that sector.
Dems..shift the focus to US right here at home..the economy..start steering the dialogue! Push first instead of pushing back.

At least 11 people have been killed and 25 injured in a suspected suicide shoe-bomb attack at a key Shia mosque in the Iraqi capital Baghdad. Full story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5086326.stm

I pissed off about the vote as well. It's time that people start to listen to John Murtha about Iraq war because everything he is saying is true! At least Murtha has the guts to say it!

End the Iraq war now! Watch the video and take action to end this war:

http://political.moveon.org/donate/pollshow-QT.html

Republican Hollywood Productions Presents “Mission Accomplished”

“Mission Accomplished” film about Washington’s DC intelligence
Story credits by George W Bush Fantasy WMD Productions
Intelligence credits by Cheney’s Halliburton No Bid Task force
Stage play by Donald Rumsfeld, White House Iraqi War Strategist
Screenplay credits by Carl Rove’s Right Wing Globalization Plan
Sound credits by the Republican Good Ole Green Blooded Choir
Security credits by Patriot Act Warrantless Domestic Spying Corporation
Lighting credits by Katrina Cathedral Floodlight Promise Company
Research credits by Tricky Dick Watergate Investigative Productions

Come see how John Wayne Bush comes in to save the day in his flight suit
How he single handily battled, changing the Iraq War outcome, by his speech.

David Young

Let's start thinking with our brains! We should thank the Repugs for this vote. Current polls show the public is STRONGLY against the war. This vote shows our party is also strongly against this war. This vote shows the Repugs in the House are strongly FOR this war. THEREFORE...our party is in the mainstream of American opinion, and the Repugs are on the outside. Let's use this vote to show the American public that they need to kick these right-wing loonies out of office and vote in our party to truly get a representative form of government.

momoaizo,

We have to get off this Democrats are always right and Republicans are alway wrong and vice-versa kick. You notice I didn't say I was going back to the Republican Party. Do you really believe that only the Republicans are controlled by big business? Both parties are controlled by big business.

My point is that if the Democrats really cared about the average American citizen they would be pushing for legislation to secure the borders and punish any business that hires illegal aliens. You are right that Reagan did not enforce the laws, but then why didn't Bush #1 or Clinton push to enforce these same laws? The answer is simple. They didn't want to just as Bush #2 doesn't want to.

As far as the press is concerned. Both sides claim the press is on the side of the other party. If you look at what is really happening to the press, you will see that they to are the voice of big business. When the goverment tell you more jobs are being created, why doesn't the press do their job and investigate what type of jobs are being created. The answer not given, is drastically lower paying jobs with little or no benefits. Higher paying jobs have been shipped off shore or watered down by the presence of illegal aliens challenging for jobs.

My main point is that if the Democratic Party is really for the average American citizen, then they should be going all out to stop anything or anyone from hurting our economy. Instead they are continuing to endorse policies, just like the Republicans, that can only benefit big business.

Everyone needs to remember that the original "cut and run" person is now sitting in the White House. He cut out of the Texas Air National Guard during the Viet Nam War and ran to Alabama to work on a politica campaign. I find it rather ironic that many of the troops serving in his war are from the reserves and the National Guard.

Everyone needs to remember that the original "cut and run" person is now sitting in the White House. He cut out of the Texas Air National Guard during the Viet Nam War and ran to Alabama to work on a politica campaign. I find it rather ironic that many of the troops serving in his war are from the reserves and the National Guard.

Everyone needs to remember that the original "cut and run" person is now sitting in the White House. He cut out of the Texas Air National Guard during the Viet Nam War and ran to Alabama to work on a politica campaign. I find it rather ironic that many of the troops serving in his war are from the reserves and the National Guard.

Sorry about posting my comment three times, but I couldn't tell if it had been accepted. However, I do believe that the comment bears repeating!!!!

YOU REPUBLICAN TRAITORS MAKE ME SICK! You always have to come up with one lie after another to cover up the last lie. You guys have sided with Osama Bin Laden and the terrorists. Innocent children are now viewed as "collateral damage". Now, your alliance of death is trying to bankrupt my country. But guess what- we are not going to let you regressive bastards destroy our beautiful country!

I don't care how much the Europeans hate King George, they do not have the right to remove him from the oval office.

the republicans have a new political strategy for november

it's called the "cut and run" strategy.

like the "flip flop" strategy...

...the republicans have chosen...

..."a new simple minded catch phrase"...

...that the republicans will market to the uninformed swing voter

the republicans will attempt to paint the democrats as the "cut and run" party.

the republicans will attempt to convince the masses that democrats are the party that will not stay and fight a holy war...

...that the right wing evangelicals support

...that the oil industry sponsored

...that the men and women of the US Armed forces are dying for

...and that the corrupt republican administration lied about.

so beware Democrats...

...beware of the new republican "cut and run" election strategy of November 06.

The truth is simple
Use your civilian intelligence,
Can America afford two more years?
Republican President
Republican Senate
Republican Congress
Republican Constitutional values
Republican Democracy and Freedom
Republican International Law
Republican American Law
Republican Corporate lobbying
Republican Corporate Government
Republican Corporate Welfare
Republican green-blooded religion
Republican poverty retirements
Republican outsourcing America
If this is not enough to scare you then
Vote Republican to see the worst scenario.
Republican theatrics, it is a horror picture.
When will the nightmare end?

David Young

Sectarian strife is worse than ever. The economy has slowly come back to prewar levels for the most part, but is now treading water. As a result, optimism has waned. According to an International Republican Institute poll conducted in late March, more than 75 percent of Iraqis consider the security environment to be poor and the economy poor or mediocre.

Tacy, the same could be said of the American peoples' perception of our situation here. Pretty sad, isn't it?

Posted by ranger995 on June 16, 2006 at 11:55 AM

ranger, occupying armies don't win anything, because there isn't any war. You just occupy space and get shot at till you leave. Or run out of money. Or the problems in your own country bite you in the ass from neglecting them so long.

There is no plan where we can win. It's madness to suggest that we can unless you want to make Iraq our 51st state.

We fought one civil war and it nearly destroyed us. Why are the Republicans allowing us to be caught in the middle of one over there...for at least two more years?

I've come to the conclusion they don't care about our troops. And I think most Americans feel the same way.

This Iraqi invasion was a a mistake; a permanent mistake. And Republicans don't admit mistakes, they just blame them on others and taunt stupid phrases like "cut and run" and "stay the course." It so juvenile.

If the neocons try to expand this thing into Syria or Iran, the adults in China or Russia or going to take out their strap and start beating us till we stop. It's gone way too long.

Posted by dlesterpoet on June 16, 2006 at 10:01 PM

You've got it. That's our strategy. Ask voters if they can stand two more years of the Republicans botching things up and trying to destroy Social Security as their top priority.

I think the Democratic party should compile and forward to every member of the party and each registered e-mail address a list of the Democratic members of the House who voted for the feel good Iraq resolution put forward by the Republicans. Attending the hearings was gross failure to represent the interests of the American people and in my opinion a vote for the Republican resolution was tantamount to treason.

Here is a sobering look at the state of Iraq:

Series of Explosions Kill 23 in Iraq

A total of seven blasts occurred within a span of five hours and dealt a new blow to a massive security operation launched earlier this week by the Iraqi government to secure the capital.

The violence included a suicide car bomber who exploded his vehicle as it was being towed near a police checkpoint in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, killing four civilians and wounding 15, Capt. Rashid al-Samarie said. The bomber had claimed his car had broken down and hired a tractor to tow it while he rode inside, al-Samarie said.

A mortar barrage also hit a residential area in Mahmoudiya, a predominantly Sunni city about 30 kilometers (20 miles) south of Baghdad, killing one civilian and wounding three others, all from the same family, al-Samarie said.

A soldier in the U.S.-led coalition also was killed Friday and two others were missing after an attack on a checkpoint near the town of Youssifiyah, 20 kilometers (12 miles) south of Baghdad, the U.S. military said.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060616061409990003

According to Rethuglicans, we don't report enough good news. The truth is that we barely hear the bad news! More Orweillan garbage from the Rethuglicans.

I am ready for some action. What do we as democrats have to do? I am tired of all the talk. So Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead. Now someone else just as bad takes his place. So how does Bush expect to get rid of every bad guy. Meanwhile our American boys are dying. These are young men and women that had futures. Their mothers and fathers love them. Now they are gone. Why? Because of a war that is going no where. The action that I want is for our Americans to come home. Let Iraq take care of themselves. Meanwhile on the homefront we are becoming a second world country ourselves. Lets stop focusing on everyone elses problems and start helping our own american people. Programs for us Americans are being cut left and right. We have to fund a war. So lets get some action. Lets band together and get the war to end.

We need to define the Repugs, not let them mis-define us and get away with it, EXAMPLE:

Republicans are the "Chickenhawk" Party who never served, never allow thier lazy, over-privilaged offspring to serve, but instead throw away the lives of OUR children (the working society)so their moron leader can strut around claiming he's a "Wartime President"; we are the Veterans Party, who have served in war and represent our troops.

Republicans are the "Rich Pigs" party, who steal from all non-millionaires and give to their corporate owners; we are the Working Society party, who are committed to opening the American dream to all. We want all working people to get ahead, and expect the "Rich class" to give back to the country that has given them so much.

Republicans are the "End of Days" loonies trying to destroy the earth with thier corporate gazillionaire owners: we are the environmentalist party, working to preserve the earth for future generations as God intended.

BOTTOM LINE: We need to recognize the enemy, attack them directly at their weak points, and stop rushing into a circle when a firing squad is called for.

Listen, what the Democrats want is not to "cut and run". This is an intentional simplification and misrepresentation. What Democrats want is MANAGEMENT. A budget. A schedule. Without these there is no plan, only a WISH. You can wish all you want but that does not make it WORK.
What Republicans want is a blank check to give the white house to give to defense contractors who have mismanaged this war and have fouled up Iraq worse than before. This open ended deal is a coverup for their incompetence.

What kind of freaking corporation runs a project without a plan, including a budget and a schedule?

What do we want from Iraq? How about a COMMITMENT? How about a COMMITMENT that they are going to put their own people on the line to fight for their freedom? Why has it been 3 years and we still have no Iraqi security capable of operating buy themselves? This is a SCAM.

All the freaking posturing using FAKE bills is enough to make me sick. They're not solving the problem in Iraq, their saving their own behinds, and the idiot Republicans are all too eager to help.

BTW, try looking for dissenting opinions on the GOP website. You won't find any. I know I have been personally blacklisted for bringing up inconvenient truths.

The fact that inconvenient truths are allowed on the Democrat website may be the saving grace of the Democrats.
I just hope that the Democrat leadership reads the posts and starts thinking.
Democrats are not always right, but at least they don't hide behind lies and spin the way the Republicans do.
Unfortunately there is a trend in the party to go "centrist" which in harsh reality means the Republi-lite selling out of the Democrat ideals. It will not bring the working people who have been ignored by the Democrats for so long, and lied to by the Republicans so much, back to the Democrat party.
People who are leaving the Republicans see the Republi-lites' phoney "centrist" stances and decide there's no difference between Republicans and Democrats. They either start looking at the third parties, Libertarian being the most popular in my part of the world, or they become discouraged voters and stay away from the polls.
Either way the Democrats loose.
Hopefully, grass-roots wins in this very important legislative election will bring the Democrats back on course.
Both Republicans and Republi-lites have betrayed the American people. It's time for a change.

The situation in Iraq I suppose depends on your point of view. For a war hawk this week has been one of the best weeks in two years. The administration has two (2) military personnel missing and presumed captured by the Iraqi insurgents. A win win for this administration. If the military finds and frees these soldiers alive the roars of USA USA USA will echo in every church and beer hall in the U.S.GWB will strut and give his John Wayne imitation while crowing about our wonderful military. If however, the insurgents refuse to honor the Geneva Accords and cause harm or death to these soldiers the wallowing in hatred and calls for the blood of every Muslim in the world will be louder than any outcry since 9-11 and the ass holes of war will be filling the media non-stop and GWBs approval rating will be back in the 80s. And in the meantime the other 2505 will still be dead and the other 18,000 will still be wounded and at least 250,000 Iraquis will be dead at our hands. Joy to the World.

For dems to win in Nov we must take the moral and correct view on two issues. 1) the war in Iraq; wITHDRAW OUR TROOPS IMMEDIATELY1 Close the permanent bases or give them to the Iraq security forces. Eliminate all the no bid contracts and send home all Amer contractors. This would help their economy. We could possibly leave a few troops, perhaps 10-20,000 in adjacent countries. I also believe that we should emphasize how immoral and unchristian this act of war was. I consider myself a devout Christian and I unlike Bush and his neocon buds believe the the foremost commandment "thou shall not kill" and "love one another."
2) Illegal immigration. I think about at least 2/3 of Americans want to close our borders and inspect our ports first. This is STRONG NATIONAL SECURITY1 Also, fine the employers severly for hiring illegals and/or put them in jail. If dems do not stand strong and have a backbone on these two issues--we will not take either house of Congress. (I am brand new at this,but if someone wants to respond I guess it is okay to give out my email address: peacepatriot@peoplepc.com. Blessings, peace "nowar"

What the Democratic party needs to do is ask President Bush, his office, the Republicans and the american people these simple but important questions which is:
1.Have we caught Osama Bin Laden?
2.Have we caught his second hand man Zalhawri?
3.Have we caught the leader of the Taliban Omar?
4.Have we stopped the Taliban insurgency in Afganistan and totally freed the people of Afganistan from the Taliban?
If and since the answer to all of these questions is no, the Democrates should ride on this wave to say that, The Bush adminitration was misguided in this war in Iraq and that the American people will concentrate more on truly liberating Afganistan and not to do a half hazard job by invading and now staying in Iraq.
The Democrates also have to tell the American people, Iraqis and the world that we will be Liberators and no longer occupiers for as long as the US stays in Iraq especially with taking miltary offences in Iraq and killing innocent Iraqis in the crossfire, this will continually fuel the Insurgency in Iraq.
As what a previous writer said, the Green Zone under US and Iraqi security protection will have to remain for now hopefully with no more then say 20,000-30,000 US troops in the Baghdad Green Zone area and no more then another 20,000-30,000 in the rest of Iraq. This will help the the Iraqi people to realize that they have to take control of the security of their country. Also in agreement to the former writer, another 30,000 US forces wil be redeployed to other bases or military facilities in the Middle East or Germany. This will leave any where from no more then 40,000 to 60,000 troops in Iraq until Jan 2008. The US military will be there only for intelligence and defensive security support, not in offenses against the Insurgency, that will have to be left up to the Iraqi forces, and of course the protection of infrastructures, gov't facilities and other economical, medical faciliies in Iraq. The other 30,000 stationed elsewhere will be there as a fall back support if the Iraqi gov't was to fall and
there would possibly be unrest in other relative save areas of Iraq, e.g Iraqi Kurdish areas and Southern Iraq.
Presently there is around 120,000 - 130,000 US Military personal in Iraq. with 40,000-60,000 still in Iraq and another 30,000 redeployed elsewhere, that means the amount from 120,000 - 130,000 in Iraq would be down to about 70,000-90,000, the other 30,000 - 60,000 left at least half would be sent to Afganistan where the job the Bush Administration should have concentrated on would continue, and to not leave the people of Afganistan with a half finish job. This I believe will give the Democrates a wide edge over the The Republicans and to help the American people to remember an almost forgotten war in Afganistan.

I think the Democrats are going to look like fools again for not gaining anything in November. I watched Rove speaking to his base on c span; the man is a master politician. He can talk to his base with a complete disregard for reality and they buy right in. Bush energized the faithful with a little gay bashing. I bet my next paycheck that Bush cut a deal in Iraq for a 30,000 troop reduction in August. That is why they are labeling the Democrats with the “cut and run label”, I told you we could win. Emigration is on hold in congress another non-issue. The Democrats are going to be in trouble with a “they are the bad guy campaign”, that is only good for their base. The independents will be thinking a lame duck or ???, I am going to go play golf. It is a base against base draw.

Phillysc:
Many countries have tried to annihilate other countries and their people in the hopes of winning a war, the British tried to in India only to find that for every one or 2 kingdoms they may have had on their side to conquer the rest of India, say about 6 or more would evolve to counter the British colonization of India. Just like in Iraq only pockets of Iraq are under some sense of control which I believe would be seen as collaboraters to the multinational forces. Unfortunately, there were also collaboraters in France, Poland and other European countries who were overtaken by Nazi Germany and once the Germans left they were dealt with. You were saying not enough was done in Viet Nam, some 3 million Viet Namese were killed and 58,000 US soldiers, that would be like wiping out half the population of the entire Sunni's in Iraq which is about 5 to 6 million people, is that the type of cost you want the US to stir ahead with. If so please throw Human Rights out the window, because that would unfortunately make the honourable US forces and the American people seem to be hypocrites in the face of today's modern age of Human freedoms and rights, which we all know is not the case. Unfortunately THe US has to allow countries to grow into Democracies, influence them but to invade a country and to force Democratization on them in Iraq can almost be called Democacism similar to what Communist Russia did after World War 2. Countries have to want to change, The US Civil War, no country forced change in the US, the US chose to make the change for themeselves, purhaps with some European influence, but never with force. Maybe Saddam's Regime would have been in power after his death maybe not, but no gov't can stop the winds of change, his style of dictatorship would eventually change; it took the US almost 100 years to change before the civil war and another 100 years for the civil rights to really be respected, why not give other countries the right to grow as well. Afganistan under the Taliban came across by the illegal invasion by the Russians, hopefully Iraq won't end up being the same as well. The US left Viet Nam
and the world did not become communist, leaving Iraq but leaving security forces there as mentioned before for security support purpose only even beyond say 2009, will force the Iraqi's to take the offensive againts the terrorist. Unfortunately though it seems that a civil war is likely in Iraq with suprisingly the minority Sunni's winning the war. If this were to happen, hopefully a levelled headed gov't leader would continue to do what the US tried to do in Iraq while possibly US forces are there while they would have to stand by and not interfere with internal fighting.Murtha has a point, the only thing is not to fully withdraw but to keep only a supportive roll.