Lott should be behind an electrified fence.....John Boy......

Hey, keep up the good work and thanks for the link.

- John Leek

Well, he has a point

for every vote Dems think they are garnering for opposing the Iraq war

they're going to lose 2 for their support of amnesty (against something like 80% of Americans)

I'd say if I were a democratic strategist, I'd pretty much shut my mouth about talking about fences cause every bit of attention they draw to their amnesty position is going to cost a local democrat an election

Fences keep goats and people out they also keep goats and people in dont they?

The Republicans pushed him out as Majority Leader once. Then they put him back in charge as Minority Leader. Incompetence fosters incompetence with these Republicans. They just can't get enough of it.

Amnesty was a Ronald Reagan invention. Wash your mouth out with soap, troll.

Bush's Amnesty Bill isn't going to get a second reading. Why is it you GOP wizkids always conveniently forget who it was that proposed these bills you "claim" to hate so much? Or is that your strategy? It won't work.

All we have to do is run a tv ad with a split screen of Reagan holding up a Welcome Mat with th Bush holding up a green card. And don't think we won't do it. Your grand scheme is going down the tubes...and people still are fixated on the fiasco in Iraq.

Not only will we take steps in the future to stop the illegal hiring, we're going to use this issue to darken St. Ronald's legacy among those who revere him. Everyone hates Bush; now they will hate Reagan, too. You shouldn't have openned that can of worms.

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to put that sucker back into his coffin for good. We were wondering how to link the outrage with Bush to the Golden Age of Reagan and you gave it to us on a silver platter. Suckers.

We'll pull the cord right before the election and it will blow up in your faces just like Foley. Once an amnesty party always an amnesty party.

Electric fence? Baaaad idea!
Goats are smarter than Republicans.
We're supposed to be surprised by a dumb statement out of Trent Lott?
Republicans always ignore the root causes and want cosmetic solutions.
Maybe it's because many of the root causes are their own doing.

i am a union electrician who has worked in many states in our great country. i watch mr russert most sundays and watched this week.i am a registered democrate andwould like to express my opinion that the illegal poeple in our country should not be given amnesty.the border needs to be closed to all incoming people but let any that want to go back go.we should make english the national language.i am all for letting hard working people, legal, into this country.please work on closing the borders, this will also stop alot of other illegal activites. thank you for your time.

A Republican Senator first confuses a virtual fence with an electrified one, then suggests that the latter should be constructed at the taxpayer's expense, ignoring the fact that electric fences can be short circuited (easily done using a grounded wire), disconnected, insulated against (using a rubber sheet), tunneled under, gone around and cut through (using insulated shears); aside from the cost of fencing a three thousand mile border and indemnifying anyone injured by touching the fence. This is not going to happen.

The senator also ignores the nature of the force driving both documented and undocumented immigration from Mexico: The reality of the labor market! Particularly, the unfilled need for farm labor from off-shore sources on one side and the presence of available skilled workers on the other. These real needs supercede a legal framework that fails to consider this reality. In other words, the law as it now reads is incongruent and must be modified. The question is how, and when.

Unfortunately, current immigration reform initiatives complicate the possibilities of their being approved by combining a number of separate issues that could (and IMO, should) be considered separately.

And none of the current initiatives consider establishing an international agreement designed to resolve what is a primarily bilateral problem, focusing instead on the unilateral control of what is of course a common border, or regulating currently undocumented workers; when the over-riding issue is creating a selectively permeable border that fills the needs on both sides, a task that requires both cooperation and understanding on all sides. (The idea of sealing the most active international border in the world is too far-fetched to contemplate seriously).

Mexicans can circulate freely within their country -and that includes the area close to it's northern border- so nothing can be expected from the Mexican government in terms of preventing its citizens from congregating at the border area in preparation for crossing it in an unregulated manner. However, the idea of Mexico's passing a bill that requires it's citizens to request permission to leave the country is not so far fetched. Obviously, obtaining a passport would be a prerequisite for requesting permission to leave Mexico, and so would having a clean criminal record.

As things stand, Mexico has no incentive to participate in such a scheme and in fact, doing so would be considered subservient to the interests of the USA - a clear political liability for anyone now in power.

However: This would change if the initiative was linked (formally or informally) to the prospect of establishing a bilateral agreement designed to alleviate the current state of tension on both sides of the border by assuring recognition of the need for the presence and rights of -as well as due process for- Mexican migrant workers.

We are not discussing amnesty or a path to citizenship for "illegal aliens". (A path to citizenship could be contemplated in a separate initiative, as would a measure intended to "regulate" currently unregulated/undocumented workers. But it's better to take one step at a time).

We are discussing the creation of a supervised and certified, binational "Temporary Agricultural Guest Worker Exchange Program" (TAGWEP) - a program that could be negotiated with Mexico in particular (and any other country with which the USA cares to do so).

Mexico would provide and regulate the flow of agricultural and agroindustrial workers from Mexico, in accordance with the terms of the Agreement. Undocumented Mexicans already working in the USA could contact the nearest Mexican Consulate in order to solicit their participation in the program but would have to enter the country legally in order to activate their legal status - they would have to leave and re-enter the USA. Whether they go to the head of the line or the end of the line would be determined by the Mexican government.

TAGWEP would assure that only experienced or trained workers with no criminal records participate and that employers comply with existing labor laws and international agreements, so that workers are both paid a fair and equal wage in a timely manner and provided with adequate living and working conditions. An binational commission would supervise the application of the agreement and assure compliance.

This would be a pilot program. Workers in other professions could be added later where justified (i.e. where workers had letters of recommendation from past or current employers, stating the need for that worker's particular skills), but this would not necessarily be an integral part of the Agreement, the terms of which would be reviewed and possibly revised or updated yearly or every two years.

Congressional approval of the current initiatives is not assured. Should that not occur, most or all of the legislative obstacles they contain are absent in TAGWEP.

If any U.S. legislators are interested in pursuing this possibility, I would be willing to present it to some of the Mexican legislators and members of the executive branch that I am in contact with. (I am writing this from Guadalajara).

Questions or comments are welcome.

If you think that fences are bad, ask the Democrtic Mayor of San Diego if he would like the fence between San Diego and Tijuana taken down. He would wet himself just at the suggestion. Fences are okay, more enforcement is okay, but jailing the criminals who willfully employ illegals will solve the problem. I was an employer for 35 years, do not tell me that hiring legal workers if difficult.

Answering The Following Statement Mexican Citizins Do have permission to leave their country but only up to a certain time. Now they can pass whenever but only when immigration says it's okay and there visa has to be valid in order to pass WITHOUT AN ILLEGAL OR CRIMINAL RECCORD & Mexico Dosent mind who come and go in their country because it brings money to their country and Most of E.E.U.U would go out of business if ALL ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS were completely gone im talking about mexican italians etc etc America is full of every kind of people but what matters the most is to mind your own business because everything in life pays back even if it's good or bad but it does.----Mexicans can circulate freely within their country -and that includes the area close to it's northern border- so nothing can be expected from the Mexican government in terms of preventing its citizens from congregating at the border area in preparation for crossing it in an unregulated manner. However, the idea of Mexico's passing a bill that requires it's citizens to request permission to leave the country is not so far fetched. Obviously, obtaining a passport would be a prerequisite for requesting permission to leave Mexico, and so would having a clean criminal record.

Answering The Following Statement Mexican Citizins Do have permission to leave their country but only up to a certain time. Now they can pass whenever but only when immigration says it's okay and there visa has to be valid in order to pass WITHOUT AN ILLEGAL OR CRIMINAL RECCORD & Mexico Dosent mind who come and go in their country because it brings money to their country and Most of E.E.U.U would go out of business if ALL ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS were completely gone im talking about mexican italians etc etc America is full of every kind of people but what matters the most is to mind your own business because everything in life pays back even if it's good or bad but it does.----Mexicans can circulate freely within their country -and that includes the area close to it's northern border- so nothing can be expected from the Mexican government in terms of preventing its citizens from congregating at the border area in preparation for crossing it in an unregulated manner. However, the idea of Mexico's passing a bill that requires it's citizens to request permission to leave the country is not so far fetched. Obviously, obtaining a passport would be a prerequisite for requesting permission to leave Mexico, and so would having a clean criminal record.

Mexican Citizins Do have permission to leave their country but only up to a certain time. Now they can pass whenever but only when immigration says it's okay and there visa has to be valid in order to pass WITHOUT AN ILLEGAL OR CRIMINAL RECCORD & Mexico Dosent mind who come and go in their country because it brings money to their country and Most of E.E.U.U would go out of business if ALL ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS were completely gone im talking about mexican italians etc etc America is full of every kind of people but what matters the most is to mind your own business because everything in life pays back even if it's good or bad but it does.----Answering The Following Statement ->>>Mexicans can circulate freely within their country -and that includes the area close to it's northern border- so nothing can be expected from the Mexican government in terms of preventing its citizens from congregating at the border area in preparation for crossing it in an unregulated manner. However, the idea of Mexico's passing a bill that requires it's citizens to request permission to leave the country is not so far fetched. Obviously, obtaining a passport would be a prerequisite for requesting permission to leave Mexico, and so would having a clean criminal record.

Good old common sense. They may not be goats, but they are not coming legally either. Keep rewarding them and they will keep coming. The boarders are a game to them at best; get caught crossing today and try again tomorrow. The problem here is common sense goes against an agenda that is not in the interest of the American Citizens. Kudos to the Senator you tried to slam.

Punishing the poor, who are trying to feed their families is a bad idea.
Let's talk about the 1000lb gorillas here.
Cracking down on the employers, who deliberately hire illegal aliens because they can then ignore their rights, and run sweat shops is getting to the bottom of the problem.
Re-negotiating the so-called "free" trade agreements, particularly NAFTA so our neighbors economies won't be destroyed by unfair labor practices, and the dumping of low cost goods is getting to the real roots of the problem as is stopping the manufacture of ethanol using food crops, which is putting the price of food out of the reach of the poor, and only helping the big agribusinesses.
Why aren't the core issues of WHY these people are risking their lives to come here getting the air play, and the discussion?
Until these issues are addressed we will continue to have this flood of economic refugees, who are willing to go over, under, around any artificial barrier that the government throws up at our expense.

I found the following statement from Howard Dean. I cannot believe that the Democratic Party would allow this sham to continue. The regular Democratic voter does not support this bill. I have been a registered Democrat since 1978. I am seriously debating changing my registration to Independent or Republican because of this issue. Get in touch with your base. You are leading us where we cannot and will not follow.

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean issued the following statement today following the Republican filibuster that stopped the bipartisan compromise for a comprehensive immigration reform bill:

"The American people have made it clear they want a comprehensive immigration reform bill that will restore order to the border and strengthen our nation's security, but that will also bring the 12 million people working and contributing to our society and economy out of the shadows. Democratic Majority Leader Harry Reid deserves a lot of credit for fighting to move this incredibly important issue forward. But a bipartisan solution requires a bipartisan push. The President has to stop sitting on his hands, and together with the Republican leadership in Congress has to make it clear to those in the Republican party who continue to stand in the way, that the American people expect results, not obstruction, and certainly not publicity stunts. Democrats will continue to fight for a bill that strengthens our borders, protects workers and their wages, stops dividing families, and allows hard working immigrants who pay taxes and obey the law the opportunity to earn legalization and eventually the responsibilities of citizenship."

The country should stop being a haven for illegals. Arrest them, deport them, expand the INS, close the border, make it so that they can't take a pee without the proper documentation while in the country, enlarge the border force, and arrest people and leaders that harbor these people who are BREAKING THE LAW. ENFORCE THE LAW THAT IS ALREADY IN PLACE!!! Some lib might think, "Oh we have to be humane and think of their families. They just want a better life." Sure, that describes the whole world. If your going to say that, then why don't we abolish all immigration laws, open the country to any convicted rapist or murderer, and just empty all of Mexico, Latin America and South America as well as Haiti and Cuba. Just let them all come. That's what the libs want. Just let everyone and anyone into the country. Why? Because they "Want a better life and we are being as humane as possible." Wake up! This issue must be dealt with quickly. Look back to the 1950's; a little operation called "Operation Wetback". You'll see how a real government dealt with the problem of immigration bcak then. Before Ted Kennedy go into the Senate and started proposing Amnesty for all who come to our borders. Why have immigration law at all if that is what your proposing? Kick them out and have them go through the hoops like real people.

The grand fraud of all is the claim that we must have "comprehensive" immigration reform -- that is, simultaneously deal with border control and the legal status of illegal immigrants already here.
There is no logical reason why these two issues must be dealt with together, though there are political reasons why elected officials want to do so. Passing border laws described as "tough" gives Congress political cover when they legalize the illegals.
It allows Congress to be on both sides of the issue, which is where most politicians want to be on most issues.
From the standpoint of the country, however, it is urgently important that the two issues be taken up separately, with border control being proven to be established first.
Otherwise, the American people get promises from politicians with a long track record of broken promises, especially on immigration, while illegal immigrants get their benefits up front and irrevocably for themselves and for the additional millions more who will cross the border.

sounda like a better answer than letting in 20 million illegal aliens

No consensus seems to exist regarding this issue. The range of opinions and concerns expressed here covers a wide spectrum. I wonder how representative that range may be, compared to the legislators currently reviewing immigration reform legislation in the Senate (legislative initiatives that modify existing legislation are considered "reforms"), and compared to the views of most American voters.

I also get the feeling that other than voting, most of those posting here are not actively involved in the political process. For one thing, only Michael Link and I are using our own names (I don't want to overstress the significance of that, however).

IAC, it seems to me that a number of important distinctions are not being taken into account by some of those posting. One of those distinctions is the difference between de facto illegality and socially destructive criminal activity. There is nothing inherently illegal about crossing a man-made border to work in the field, particularly when the law fails to contemplate kind of heavy losses that occurred in California last year when tightened border made it impossible to contract sufficient fruit harvesters.

Did the first European settlers bother to solicit documents from the Native Americans land-owners that taught them how to farm and survive the New World's cold winters? (How did they repay them? By stealing their land)! Most of colonists came because they were either persecuted or lacked opportunities at home. Are things that different now? The main difference is that the great majority of today's undocumented migrants come to work at jobs that simply aren't being filled by native born Americans, and most of them are found in states that used to be part of (and were stolen from) Mexico.

When laws reflect the unfounded and smug moral superiority of the victors of unjust wars, they're not worth much. I think that correcting this is motivating the best intentioned legislators behind the current bill.

However: I do share the belief that including a "path to citizenship" for undocumented migrant workers in the KK (Kyl-Kennedy) Bill is a mistake. People come to work, not change their citizenship, and their rights (yes they have rights, documented or not, legal entry or not), are not being respected. And ignoring or denying their civil and worker's rights is a bigger mistake than including a direct path to citizenship in the KK Immigration Reform Bill. Both are mistakes that complicate and diminish the possibilities of resolving the problem.

Mexicans come to the USA for several interrelated reasons:

1).- The money (above all - & in general, they work hard for it);

2).- The common border (the same reason people climb mountains -because it is there- and in this case, relatively close at hand);

3).- Historical antecedents, that include:

a).- The culture - most Mexicans are of Native American ancestry and Native American culture is typically migratory and doesn't recognize borders - see below*);

b).- Many of those crossing are descendants of (or related to) others that crossed before - they have people to stay with; and

c).- Most of the immigration occurs in states that once belonged to Mexico. In that sense, they are simply returning home. (California is the most populous state and it's largest minority is Latino).

No one comes to the USA from Mexico looking for freedom except freedom from poverty. (A small number do come to escape prosecution for crimes committed in Mexico or to engage in lucrative criminal activities -a phenomena that are addressed by this initiative - fewer still may seek to evade serious political conflicts). Many come to study, but no one comes expressly for citizenship. (Citizenship is an issue of interest only for those who have worked long enough in the USA to really deserve it).

* For example: Members of the Kickapoo Nation cross the border when and where they please, in line with the nature of their own culture and the terms of the treaty established with the U.S. government. In that sense, this initiative would establish a kind of a treaty.

Lastly, it may prove useful to be aware of the nature of the Mexican government's policy for those desiring Mexican citizenship: No direct path exists for those inside the country illegally.

What *has* been made available occasionally in the past for those in that situation is the opportunity to participate in a "Regularization Program" that allows those currently in the country under unregulated (or irregular) conditions to apply for a regulated (legal rather than illegal) temporary status.

In conclusion:

Fact One: Temporary agricultural guest workers are needed to harvest America's crops. When enough of them have not been available, crops have rotted in America's fields and orchards. This is bad for farmers, consumers and the US economy.

Conclusion: The reality of the labor market mandates the presence of seasonal workers in agriculture from off-shore sources, particularly Mexico.

Fact Two: Temporary agricultural workers are often subjected to living and work conditions that violate both labor laws and the workers civil rights. When their status is unregulated (as is often the case at present), their ability to exercise those rights is severely limited. Furthermore, the capacity of farm labor unions to protect farm workers from abuse is weakened when undocumented migratory workers are involved.

Fact Three: Some criminal elements leave their country of origin in order to avoid prosecution for crimes committed at home and / or to engage in lucrative criminal activities abroad.

Conclusion: A supervised, certified Temporary Agricultural Guest Worker Exchange Program (TAGWEP) which guarantees that only experienced or trained farm workers with no criminal record are sent, and that participating farmers and farm labor contractors provide workers with adequate and equitable living and working conditions along with fair wages that are paid in full in a timely manner, should be negotiated between the USA and Mexico and then ratified by the legislatures of both countries.

AMAZING!!!!!!! when is The democratic Leadership going to Learn to Listen to their BASE... NO AMMNESTY!!!!! NO IMMIGRATION REFORM..The gains we've made in one election will be wiped out in One election.

Charlie T wrote:

> AMAZING!!!!!!! when is The democratic Leadership going to Learn to Listen to their BASE... NO AMMNESTY!!!!! NO IMMIGRATION REFORM..The gains we've made in one election will be wiped out in One election.

Charlie, you claim your his opinion represents that of the DP's base. I don't believe it.

You make no reference to the reality of the labor market or justice for the Latino minority, just winning elections; warning that the party's current one vote congressional majority will be wiped out if your views fail to dominate. However:

The DP can't win without both the farm vote and the Latino vote. Furthermore, the DP's base includes most minorities (excluding racists, the religious right and the very rich). If selfishness and isolationism are the only attractions the DP has to offer to WASPs, that would make it no more than a clone of the RP and simply explains how the USA managed to paint itself into the corner it made for itself in Iraq, before more than a few woke up.

The need for additional (including currently undocumented) farm labor is not going to go away by itself and failing to provide a legal form of of filling that need will mean that the borders will remain irrelevant to those they get in the way of. Chauvinism is a poor solution for a nation of immigrants that believes in justice and wants to eat well. Apparently, young voters don't share your view either.

Top News:
New Poll Finds That Young Americans Are Leaning Left
Young Americans are more likely to favor an open-door
policy on immigration ... a poll found.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/washington/27poll.html

In any case, we Democrats are tolerant folks and airing our views here is a healthy way to work out the kinks.

This new law is a disaster.

It grants amnesty but it will be eight or more years before the immigrants can vote. If new democtatic votes are what this is about.

New penalties are a joke since they will not be enforced anymore than the existing law is enforced. ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAW FIRST.

Guest workers will be the same as slave labor.
They will have no protection from preditory
employers because THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT AND WILL NEVER BE ANY. Check out the conditions that
current guest workers live in.

The combination of guest workers, amnesty for
those here already and unrestricted (yes unrestricted) new immigration will depress wages to peasant level. This will destroy unions and the entire middle class will become a tiny portion of what it is now. Look at what has been done to wages already. Construction work used to be a middle class job and their children could go to college, now its a poverty level job. The same for meat packers. Now this law will do tha same for teachers, nurses and engineers.

This law is not about a fence. The fence is a straw man. If the Democratic party passes this law it will be the greatest betrayal of trust for the working class since Taft-Hartly.

Sorry he had to say that, but at this point, if the democrats dont get their act together and stop illegal immigration by enforcing thier CURRENT LAWS, you're going to get rhetoric like this! Now, if the voting citizens want to curb immigration, why dont you focus on that versus what republicans are saying about the issue. its an example of what type of fences would work, not calling illegals goats! Give me a break, and if we say we are not focused on amnesty, but we ARE focusing on stopping the flood of illegal immigration (and coincidentally the drug trafficking as well), WORK ON THAT!

Replying to CassandraToo (although issues mentioned by wenrows and Liberal... are dealt with also):

You raised some good points, some of which have been recognized by a number of the Democratic presidential hopefuls (where I am, they would be called precandidates - a valid term, IMO).

In particular, Bill Richardson has mentioned his dissatisfaction with the lack of adequate measures to protect farm workers in the Senate Bill.

This blog began with a question asking what well known Republican made a statement implying that current immigration & border security problems could be resolved by treating undocumented workers as he treats his goats; a stupid and callous remark coming from anyone, an irresponsible and reprehensible remark coming from a public servant charged with creating policy.

My response went beyond that. I referred to a solution called TAGWEP (Temporary Agricultural Guest Worker Exchange Program) that differs from the Bills now in Congress in a number of very substantial ways:

First of all, amnesty is neither present nor ruled out - it isn't contemplated and is therefore not an issue. Likewise, legalizing the presence of undocumented workers currently working in the USA is not an issue. Since Mexico would administrate the Mexican end of the program, Mexicans currently working in the USA could ask to be included by applying through any Mexican Consulate, but they would have to leave the country and re-enter as part of what will be a perfectly legal way to perform agriculturally related work for equal pay in the USA, on a temporary (yearly) basis.

Secondly, TAGWEP is not a unilateral measure. It involves a bilateral agreement - and Mexico is not going to approve an agreement that fails to provide an adequate and equitable treatment for any Mexicans that participate and assure compliance for same. TAGWEP will create a certified and supervised program with oversight carried out by an binational commission.

> This new law is a disaster.

TAGWEP probably stands a better chance if the new law fails to pass.

> It grants amnesty but it will be eight or more years before the immigrants can vote.

TAGWEP does not grant amnesty.

> If new democtatic votes are what this is about.

TAGWEP is likely to strengthen the Farm and Latino vote of those already citizens.

> New penalties are a joke since they will not be enforced anymore than the existing law is enforced. ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAW FIRST.

Unjust, unclear and contradictory laws are hard to enforce. Obviously, the creation of a national database for non-USA nationals living in the USA is a prerequisite to enforcement (I forgot which Democratic precandidate said that). Also, a hard to forge Social Security card containing a fingerprint would complement this. (Anyone working in the USA -guest workers included- would be covered by Social Security under TAGWEP).

> Guest workers will be the same as slave labor.

Not under TAGWEP.

> They will have no protection from preditory employers because THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT AND WILL NEVER BE ANY. Check out the conditions that current guest workers live in.

I haven't seen them lately, but I subscribe to the UFW, The Agribusiness Examiner, The Nation and Mother Jones newletters. I would agree that corporate control of the electoral process and public policy (plus the mass media and the nation's research agenda) is a (if not the most) serious problem that needs to be faced world-wide, but I tend to be a bit more optimistic. I would say that "there never will be" unless we organize, take a stand and implement effective initiatives that produce concrete and positive results. Hopefully, the DP will help further that end (and it will have to, in order to mean anything as a viable political option. BTW, Joe Biden did call for an Electoral Reform Bill to get money out of politics).

> The combination of guest workers, amnesty for those here already and unrestricted (yes unrestricted) new immigration will depress wages to peasant level. This will destroy unions

Unions favor getting undocumented workers legalized and unionized.

> and the entire middle class will become a tiny portion of what it is now. Look at what has been done to wages already. Construction work used to be a middle class job and their children could go to college, now its a poverty level job. The same for meat packers. Now this law will do tha same for teachers, nurses and engineers.

TAGWEP does not provide coverage for undocumented construction workers, teachers, engineers or nurses. (There may is a shortage of nurses and software engineers in the USA, but that need -if it exists- is not dealt with by TAGWEP, however. The percentage of non-union constuction workers who work for lower wages has risen and unionizing construction workers is more likely if they are working legally but as stated, TAGWEP is directed toward resolving the status and treatment of agriculturally related workers and fill the needs of farmers, farm agricultural and agroindustrial workers in an equitable and legal manner).

> This law is not about a fence. The fence is a straw man.

The fence is a waste of money, bad public policy and in any case, does not resolve issues that must be dealt with.

> If the Democratic party passes this law it will be the greatest betrayal of trust for the working class since Taft-Hartly.

These issues are being examined in the Senate while we write this. We'll have to wait and see what happens. IAC, I intend to continue refining and promoting TAGWEP, but don't want to influence the discussion going on in the Senate at present. (I'm assuming that none of them read this).

We should take all these people like Ted Kennedy, Robert Mendendez and the whole Democratic Party and ship them to the country these losers are working for.

I was A Democrat for 40-years, but neither the Democratic nor the Republican Party is now working for the American people anymore; so now I’m an independent.

The way the democrats are trying to dump 12, to 20 million uneducated losers who did not have the guts to fight for their rights in there own country, makes me want to puke. And when dirt bags say these people are doing work we wont do, I want to a size 12 up their butts,

Americans were doing these jobs before these freeloaders came here, and they would do them now if they were paid a livable wage for them.

And listen up you Democratic morons, they are not undocumented immigrants, they have plenty of documentation, because these thieves stole them from us. Calling these people undocumented immigrants, is like calling a burglar and undocumented house guest, and he’s not holding stuff he just stole from you, he’s only borrowing it.

Watching this party sell the working class of this country out so they can get more votes, and provide big business with cheap labor, gives new meaning to the term traitor!

I’m all for bringing back an old French device called the guillotine, and start separating some overpaid bodies, from their ego inflated heads.

We have 47-million legal Americans without health insurance and these bums don’t think we have enough! I’m ready for a real revolution in this country, because apparently it’s the only thing these traitors to the working class would understand.

It’s time we send these losers to the county of their choice, because it’s this isn’t it!

I've been in three armed conflicts for this country, and it appears I have been shooting at the wrong enemy. Because right now the biggest enemy of the American people, is the Democratic Party!

I have been a life long DEMOCRAT and have never been silly enough to vote Republican and never will. However the Democratic Party is stooping to the lows of George Bush and his cronies(Ted Kennedy included) with the push to pass this junk bill on immigration. I can forsee the Democrats losing tremendously in future elections if this stupidity continues.I wish Lou Dobbs would run for president.

Chrish wrote:

> I would be interested in hearing more from Douglas_Hinds and his proposal

Thank you for your interest. Is there any particular aspect of TAGWEP you would like to know more about?

> even though I do have some reservation with his statements

Which statements generated your reservation? Maybe I need to make parts of it clearer.

> but, I'm open minded enough to listen.

That's a good start. In fact, it's the only way to start.

> I can only hope it's not just more smoke and mirrors.

TAGWEP is not designed to resolve all problems. It's meant to be an "a la carte" solution to a clear cut issue that can and should be dealt with, without complicating the issue with more controvertial, emotional aspects that will have to be dealt with separately, at some point.

Any questions about TAGWEP or me? Fire away!

What is our gov. thinking? They were elected by the people, I thought they were supposed to be for the people. This immigration bill is a bad idea, and any politician from ohio that supports it, I won't be voting for!

Please, DO NOT allow the legalizing millions of unlawful immigrants. Though the country was founded on immigrates the cost and effect will have on the American people will be felt for generations to come. We have yet to control the boarders which will cost millions if done right. Thank You

Ok, the votes are in, the immigration bill is dead on arrival. Thank goodness!! Now, let us dissect some of the rhetoric. First, why does tackling the issue have to be "comprehensive"? Cracking down on employers/exploiters will solve most of the problem. We do not need to round up and ship home 12 to 20 million people in this country illegally. If they are denied financial means, they will go home on their own.
Second, this argument I keep hearing and reading that the immigrants are just going to states that once belonged to Mexico. Florida, never belonged to Mexico, neither did New York, Illinois, Georgia, and just about every state in the Union. Now, let us examine those states that were once part of Mexico. Texas won their Independance from Mexico and was an Independant country before petitioning the U.S. to become a State. The entire state of Texas was virtually uninhabited by anyone other than Commanches until Generallissimo Santa Anna openly recruited and embraced American pioneers to settle the land. Mexicans would not go their, just as they would not go the areas of Nortern Mexico now known as New Mexico and Arizona. The Navajo, Arapahoe, and Apache's were to fierce. The United States purchased New Mexico and Arizona in the Gadsden purchase. Yes, the U.S. may have intimidated Mexico, but the purchase was recognized as legal and binding by the International community of the Age. It was certainly as legal as was the Louisiana Purchase that secured large parts of territory that was claimed by France and Spain. California was basically a spoil of war taken from Mexico. Both sides in the Mexican/American were spoiling for a fight. No one side was particularly wronged by the other. As distasteful as it may seem, wars are usually legal under international law, and spoils of war are legal results of war. Mexico should not have gone to war against us without the ability to win. Had they won, no doubt large parts of the central U.S. would now be under Mexican flag.
Let us examine Mexico itself, it is not a friend of the U.S. It conspired against us in both World War 1 and WW2. It is a corrupt government, even more than our own, it cares little for its own citizens and loves the billions the illegals send to Mexico. I live in an area of Florida that is the heart of Orange groves. Our economy is heavily dependant on foreign workers picking these oranges. Most of the workers here are on HB1 visas, their are currently eight different visas allowing legal workers to come to this country.
The Democratic party will probably pay a price for not listening to the majority of Americans and their Democratic base.

Sorry but for the Democrats to keep Congress they need to decide if they are going to keep their word on how they got elected in 06 and stop backing down from Bush. Keep sending him the bill that they started out with and make him keep vetoing it.
As far as the immigration despite what Dean thinks the Democrats have more to lose than the Republicans on the amnesty bill. Enforce our laws and take away the benefits of coming here illegally. Send them back, fine heavily the people and businesses that hire them and do away with the automatic citizenship jush because your mother came illegally across the border to have you.
Right now I am split. The Democrats WERE on the right path with Iraq but have backed down. The Republicans are devided on the illegals and are coming around on Iraq. The way things are headed I will probably vote Republican if they can hold their position on being generally against Illegals and getting out of Iraq.

Your first step into a new country should not be the commission of a crime by entering it illegally.

We import oil, we import food, we import manufactured goods, there isn`t enough here for the people that are legal. A sign of overcrowding? Why allow more in?

Do we become a third world nation to keep the campaign contributions rolling in?

While my support usually runs to the democrats, I will support no one that thinks we need more immigration or amnesty for illegals already here.

If we can`t maunfacture things at home, if we don`t have enough oil or food produced at home why let more people in? Or keep the ones that entered illegally.

As an American, and a voter, I expect American politicians to represent Americans, not illegals.

Tax imports not Americans!

Your first step into a new country should not be the commission of a crime by entering it illegally.

We import oil, we import food, we import manufactured goods, there isn`t enough here for the people that are legal. A sign of overcrowding? Why allow more in?

Do we become a third world nation to keep the campaign contributions rolling in?

While my support usually runs to the democrats, I will support no one that thinks we need more immigration or amnesty for illegals already here.

If we can`t maunfacture things at home, if we don`t have enough oil or food produced at home why let more people in? Or keep the ones that entered illegally.

As an American, and a voter, I expect American politicians to represent Americans, not illegals.

Tax imports not Americans!

You guys are squandering your admittedly narrow victory last year and handing the next election over to the Republicans.

You've created a false, political dichotomy that is going to put you right back where you've been for most of the last ten years--out of power. It's not amnesty vs. deportation. Just enforce the laws on the books, and your traditional constituents--American workers--will turn out for you in droves!

You guys are squandering your admittedly narrow victory last year and handing the next election over to the Republicans.

You've created a false, political dichotomy that is going to put you right back where you've been for most of the last ten years--out of power. It's not amnesty vs. deportation. Just enforce the laws on the books, and your traditional constituents--American workers--will turn out for you in droves!

I finally returned to the Democratic Party when they got a clue and ran people like Jim Webb in the last election. With every single candidate in this party supporting amnisty for illegals I assure you I will not vote that way again. Howard Dean is a moron. Go ahead bigmouth. We'll see you at the polls. You will lose the edge you gained with the anti-war sentiment. I guarantee you that. Remember when all of those folks in Ohio ambushed the radical liberals in 2004? You can bet every state will be Ohio in 2008.

Responding to Chris H, who wrote:

> Mr. Hinds, you stated, "Since Mexico would administrate the Mexican end of the program, Mexicans currently working in the USA could ask to be included by applying through any Mexican Consulate, but they would have to leave the country and re-enter ". What incentives would there be for those currently here illegaly to leave?

Legal status. And along with that, better treatment and better pay. All of that would be part of the initiative, which would close the loopholes on the USA end. That means creating a national database for all foreign nationals that have entered the country, together with a tamper-proof Social Security card and a dated license to work that contains a fingerprint linked to the database.

However - TAGWEP covers food and farm related work only and is strictly a work program. No amnesty is included for those who entered the USA illegally or overstayed their visas. Mexico doesn't provide that either, although when Fox took office he did open the door for regulating an unregulated status - but that had a limited time frame.

Obviously, those working in non-food and agriculture related industries may chose to remain as they are, but they will be much more vulnerable due to the control methods included and the food and ag industries will offer a greater attraction.

> A similar amendment in their Amnesty Bill was proposed that nobody really believed would work. What assurances are provided that the Mexican government would do their part in administrating this fairly and legally?

The guarantee of fair and equitable treatment for those participating in the program.

> This is even more critcal given the corrupt nature of the Mexican government.

Mexico is probably the country that has changed most without losing control since 1982, and since the year 2000 - when the federal govt. changed hands, more progress has been made because the monopoly was broken. The next administration may well be governed by another party who would rather prosecute than cover the back of corrupt officials. Not only that, at this point elections are cleaner than in the USA, although controversies still exist.

> "TAGWEP will create a certified and supervised program with oversight carried out by an binational commission." Who will appoint this "binational commission" and what assurances will We have that they will do their jobs and NOT become just another political tool for politicians on either side. In other words, will the politics AND the politicians be kept out of it or will it become just another political appointee (wife, friend, business donor or acquaintance) by a politician?

Good point. This will have to be defined in TAGWEP. Not only will both countries be represented, farmers, farm workers, processors, consumers and civil rights organizations will have to be present.

> How will this whole thing be enforced

We are discussing an international agreement and the binational commission charged with overseeing the program will have the power to enforce laws that already exist but are not respected at present. The basic principle behind the program is equal treatment for all workers, regardless of their origin, so U.S. citizens will benefit too from the enforcement.

> AND how will it be funded?

Fences and electronic sensing devices won't be needed. A percentage of the pay earned by those participating will cover operating expenses but the cost of the data base and ID's in the USA will have to be covered via U.S. federal funds.

> I see this applies only to the agricultural industry so the question needs to be asked, how do you fit into this proposed bill? What are your motivations or more pointedly, what's in this for you? :o)

I am Director of the Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural (Center for Community and Rural Development), a Mexican non-profit organizations that supports sustainable and equitable development projects. We work principally with farm organizations and have received no funds from governments, to date. In other words, this is what I do. I have also been charged with organizing a Guadalajara Chapter of Democrats Abroad, an organization which sends 22 delegates to the democratic convention.

If this happens, I wouldn't mind being involved in the follow up in order to assure compliance on all sides.

At this point, a strategy will have to set for presenting the proposal on the U.S. end. Maybe I should begin with the legislators most opposed to the bill that was defeated, maybe not. Or maybe I should move it here first and let Mexico's congress present it through governmental channels. But it's 11:30 pm where I am and I'm going to let that ride for the moment.

Any further questions or opinions?

I’m seeing way too much of this I would never vote for a republican, because I’m democrat nonsense.

We are in a war people, and both parties are selling us out to the enemy.

If you are one of the democrats who voted for Dem. Rep. William Jefferson who was caught with $90,000 in bribe money in his freezer, and then you voted him back into office, you aren’t a democrat; you are a blooming idiot. You just voted a thief back into office, and you can bet he will steal from you again.

You people have got to look at whom your representatives are working for. In my state I Have Democrat Robert Menendez. Does the name tell you something? He’s an Hispanic, and that’s who this guy is working for. He’s not working for blacks, Italians, or any other race in this country. If you look at his voting record, he’s only working for one group of people; Hispanics, and he doesn’t care how much it cost the rest of us taxpayers as long as he helps his people. But even after he got caught renting property to groups he lobbied to get funding for, the people voted him back in.

How stupid are these people? This guy is taking our tax money, helps some group get $9-million in federal funds, and they rent a house from him for $300,000.

And I’m so tired of the bleeding hearts, and Hispanics using the race card, whenever things don’t go their whining way!

In the Texas town of EL Cenizo, where there are 7,000 legal, and illegal aliens, they just made Spanish the official language, declared their town a safe haven for illegal aliens, and even passed a law stating that any town employee who turned in an illegal alien would be fired. Yet these same bleeding hearts, and Hispanic groups trying to get open borders would say you are a racist if you said you wanted English as a primary language.

I don’t care what color your skin is, or what race you are, but when you steal from me you are a thief, and that’s what illegal aliens do. Unfortunately the majority of the illegal aliens in this country are Hispanic, and I don’t want to kick them out because they are Hispanic, but because they steal resources that belong to Americans. If they want rights so bad they should fight for them in their own country.

So, for the morons who think they are just coming for a job, to feed their families, you traitorous dogs should start thinking about Americas families. We have 47-million legal Americans who have no health insurance. There are 28-million legal Americans living in poverty. There are really way more then that, because our do nothing government has this really low standard of what they say someone can live on in this country, before they start dealing crack!

Getting a college education is becoming harder, and harder to get because of the cost. The average college student is now getting out of school with a $30,000 to $60,000 debt, and it’s taking 6, years to do it, because many have to drop out for awhile to pay off some of their debt.

We are in a war people and in a war you take care of your own first. When I was in Vietnam, after a battle I wouldn’t care if there were little children in front of me bleeding to death. You take care of your own wounded first!

This is America! There is only one flag you wave, one language used by the people who fight our wars, and only one people you support. If you want to wave a Mexican, communist, or some other flag while demanding we give you something just because you jumped the fence, or you are one of the losers who support these people; then get out! Go to the country of your choice, and help them from that end, where you can speak all the Spanish, German, Russian, or whatever it is they speak in the country you love more then America, because you don’t belong here!

Boo, hoo, they are just looking for a better life! Well, so are millions of legal Americans, only they are being taxed to death to support mostly Mexico’s poor, and criminal element!

Mexico’s middle, and upper class should be taking care of their own people not us. I live in NJ where the average yearly property tax is now over $6,800. I myself live in a rural area, and pay $4,000 a year. I have no city water, sewer, or even garbage pickup. Why am I paying $4,000 for that? Because two towns from me we have a town that’s a sanctuary for illegal aliens, and I’m paying to teach their kids English, and feed and clothe them. That money, belongs to our kids, not theirs. It was reported in my local paper only last month that 40% of NJ hospitals are now running in the red because of taking care of these illegal losers.

And this war is not over people! We all have to become political hit men, and go after the politicians in our own state who have been selling us out to big business, or some country like Mexico. If anyone in this country should be getting free healthcare, it should be a legal American.

And if you are one of the blooming idiots who just vote along party lines instead of what is good for you, and the country, please leave with the illegal aliens? Why? Because we don’t need your genes in our gene pool, we already have enough fools in it now. Voting along party lines is how George Bush got into office, because if anyone took the time to look up this losers resume before voting, you wouldn’t have given him a job to baby-sit the family dog.

We have an idiot for a president, because we have a bunch of idiots who voted for him! And we have hig taxes, because we takecare of everyone but Americans!

Smoke