WooHOOOO

GO DEMS IN 08!!

Time to CLEAN OUT AND CLEAN UP the DIRTY White HOUSE!

Thank you Michael!

Yes Thanks {{Michael}} :-]

This thread dedicated to Dawn.

The Economic Consequences of Mr. Bush

When we look back someday at the catastrophe that was the Bush administration, we will think of many things: the tragedy of the Iraq war, the shame of Guantánamo and Abu Ghraib, the erosion of civil liberties. The damage done to the American economy does not make front-page headlines every day, but the repercussions will be felt beyond the lifetime of anyone reading this page.

I can hear an irritated counterthrust already. The president has not driven the United States into a recession during his almost seven years in office. Unemployment stands at a respectable 4.6 percent. Well, fine. But the other side of the ledger groans with distress: a tax code that has become hideously biased in favor of the rich; a national debt that will probably have grown 70 percent by the time this president leaves Washington; a swelling cascade of mortgage defaults; a record near-$850 billion trade deficit; oil prices that are higher than they have ever been; and a dollar so weak that for an American to buy a cup of coffee in London or Paris—or even the Yukon—becomes a venture in high finance.

Kristen,

Information clearing HOuse posts the REAL numbers every day. (If you don't subscribe to this publication, you should)

Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In U.S. War On Iraq 1,118,846

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In U.S. War And Occupation Of Iraq 3,875

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cost of U.S. War and Occupation of Iraq

$471,373,473,484

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/.

(be careful though, when you publish Real, accurate numbers like this. the Repuggies will say you are anti-american because you DARE to print the truth, or else they will say 'so what, women and children and innocents are nothing but collateral damage'. They will not give a damn

For our Dem tech heads.

The Web 2.0 Campaign for the White House

THIS DESERVES ANOTHER POSTING:

Looks like it is going to be a Fun Tool for rebutting Republican Candidates!

FLIPPER TV>

http://www.democrats.org/page/content/FlipperTV/

Speaking of flippers, tonight at 8:00 is the Repug YouTube debate. I don't know if I can make myself watch or not ! all that smoke and mirrors gets in my eyes ! All that spin makes me dizzy. All the distortions and lies make me sick to my stomach !

(be careful though, when you publish Real, accurate numbers like this. the Repuggies will say you are anti-american because you DARE to print the truth, or else they will say 'so what, women and children and innocents are nothing but collateral damage'. They will not give a damn

Posted by PamB on November 28, 2007 at 09:34 AM

Thanks for the warning Pam, I've been working on toughing my 'who gives a crud what you think' shell. :)

As I read through the Salon article I realized the 'anti-american' label would probably be thrown my way as well.

What I've learned over the last week is that those that scream these things are truly the minority. I know I've mentioned my Republican father on more than one occasion but over the holiday we had a very long family discussion about the war and the cost to our country. Many times before we had to agree to disagree for the sanity sake of mom, but this time he was right there agreeing with me that the cost of what we have done was too high and Bush has really screwed things up.

what a cool picture!!

dedicated to moi??? rut roh am I posting too much?

sowwy :-[

I have voted democrat in every election since I was 18. I was excited to cast my first vote for Bill Clinton. I am thirty now and my views of the party have been going through some changes as of late. I believe you have lost touch with the moderate democrat. I believe that all of the candidates and the overall message is weak. I will be voting a third party this coming election. Who knows, maybe even a moderate Republican. Thank you for the continued dissappointment, it will make my choices easier this coming election.

Good morning, ALL!

Dawn, you realize, of course, that since this thread is dedicated to YOU (probably due to your "demanding" nature J/K) the trolls will have a field day attacking YOU. That's what they do.

Michael, that 'Flipper-Vision' thing is GREAT! An instant "Rapid Response" tool at the tip of ones fingers.

Just click a mouse and chase the rats away.

Dear k_bar

thanks for visiting our blog, and making your views known.

You obviously are happy with the way things have gone in this country for the last 7 years, so you vote 3rd party spoiler, or vote for a Republican ! Another 4 or 8 years of this bull shit seems to be just what you would like.

Have a nice life !

"Who knows, maybe even a moderate Republican."

Posted by k_bar43 on November 28, 2007 at 09:48 AM

Good luck finding one of those, concern troll!!!

Dawn, you realize, of course, that since this thread is dedicated to YOU (probably due to your "demanding" nature J/K) the trolls will have a field day attacking YOU. That's what they do.

damn ! You mean I am going to lose my 'admirers'? Dawnie, take it as a compliment should they do so !

Kristen,

Your father is a big man. It is those Republicans who still cling to approving of Bush, of this illegal occupation because they are small people that make me sick !

bbl,

DUE BEE~~~~Trolls stink - P-U
(I still don't understand your fascination with them?) lol

Yep I'm demanding! Just ask the animals! (and the furry creatures) The Trees know it. The Birds know it too! Even the wind chimes ring at my command!

PAHHAHAHAHA! (poke)

If you just sit there and wait for things to happen they MAY - or they may NOT

If you MAKE things happen you can pretty much COUNT on things getting done. Not always the way you want but at least you are DOING something! Right?

:-P

So k bar #43 (hmmmm) thinks the Dems are too libburrell, and some others think the Dems are too moderate.

Can't please everybody I guess, but voting for a Pug or throwing away a vote based on what FAX "News" claims seems a little too contrived.

In the Primaries, the candidates jockey for field position against opponents within the Party, in the General election they jockey for the middle of BOTH parties.

What part of this is too difficult to understand?

It's the PRIMARY season, where the players try to articulate certain things to certain constituencies in order to be the nominee. After that they have to appeal to ALL the voters as best as they can.

Regardless, FAX SPEWS will call ANY Dem a "leftist" no matter who it is.

Posted by Make_the_Scary_Repukes_Go_Away on November 28, 2007 at 10:05 AM

Let them spend all of their money on that, better than on the candidates in the next election.

Posted by PamB on November 28, 2007 at 10:00 AM

speaking of trolls {{Pammy}} that idiot last night threatened me by saying YOU would kick me off the blog for my opinion!

I was ROFLMAO then realized it REALLY doesn't understand friendship. IT's LOSS and I pity it.

Has anyone else been limiting their areas of reading and listening lately now that so many are picking their candidates and promoting MOSTLY them and letting the others get dissed at random?

I no longer visit KOS, DU or listen to Ed or Stephanie. Limiting my venues but I get tired of hearing their rants and their callers rants against Hillary. JMO.

I'm sure the haters love it. Anyway just noticing it's getting much worse.

Make_the_scary's link

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/oral-roberts-university-gets-a-lifeline/20071128081209990001?

good morning, just been reading the comments. those trolls are everywhere. i just hate to see all the democratic candidates fighting with each other, especially as bloody as its been getting. the repugs are going to use this against us in the general campaign. i sincerely hope we have not damaged ourselves to the point that the eventual nominee will have a harder time getting elected. i still don't believe obama has the experience fighting the repugs smut machine.they just haven't started on him yet. their still on hilliary. what about edwards, he certainly didn't do much to help out kerry. his speeches in 04' were mundane at best. it's nerve racking, we must get the white house or this country is down the drain

Morning Connie

Not many here would totally agree with you.

(I happen to) But most probably won't here. Anyway welcome to the DNCKA. :-)

Posted by connfloyd on November 28, 2007 at 10:14 AM

Don't worry too much about the infighting, politicians are like animals trapped in a corner, they fight for survival with vicious ferocity. I think it is good to muck it up in the primaries--it gives us a chance to see the strengths and weaknesses of candidates and as Nietzsche said "that which does not kill us makes us stronger"--it prepares them for the evil hate machine that is to come.

Anyone remember Oral Roberts in the 80s asking for 40mil or god was going to take him? That's when I realized just how much of a threat ignorant Bible thumpers can be.

FEDS HIDING TRILLIONS IN DEPT!

BETTER WATCH YOUR BANK ACCOUNTS!!!

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/News/FedsBudgetTricksHideTrillionsInDebt.aspx

speaking of trolls {{Pammy}} that idiot last night threatened me by saying YOU would kick me off the blog for my opinion!

oh, dawnie. Speaking of power, that trollie (sour grape Mark Lof who obviously got kicked out), and others, think I have the magic of blocking and erasing them. IF ONLY !

Posted by ranger995 on November 28, 2007 at 10:24 AM

wow 2 in a row! I agree ranger.

(ok add Atrios to the list of no longer reading, shees)

Wanker of the Day

Hillary Clinton.
-Atrios 16:56

Posted by DawnTheOriginaL on November 28, 2007 at 10:10 AM

You know I didn't like Sen Clinton (we should start calling her that and correct any repug who does not show her respect) at first because she was too tied to the DLC and big corporations. However, I have grown to admire her a little because she is a good fighter and we need that in our party right now. I sort of abandoned the DNC after the last election ---I campaigned for Tammy Duckworth and it was bitter. I was really upset at the Democrat's refusal to fight back hard--but i think Sen Clinton may bring that to the table even if I don't agree with her 100% I am starving for some on to take the fight to them.

Well, ranger, if the leadership and the candidates will not take up the fight, count on the Democrats in this country who have had Enough and are not going to take it anymore ! We have seen 7 years of what Republican Destruction can do, and that is enough!

I will fight for Dem candidates for Congress and the WH. I will donate more than I can afford to make sure the message gets out. I will help with the 50 State strategy and bring Democratic candidates and offices where they never were before. I will carry Voter Reg cards with me and sign up voters where ever I find them. I will phone bank and go door to door. Whatever it takes !

Ranger me too

I really like Tammy!!

Is Tammy still planning to run in 08 for something? I hope so. She would be a stellar addition to our Party Leadership! Don't you think? What a true fighter!

were you airborne? 1st or 2nd/75th? Loved those guys!!

GMA is broadcasting from my favorite place in the Northwest Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

Posted by PamB on November 28, 2007 at 10:34 AM

I agree Pam, and I will be back in the fold soon enough, I just needed some time to regroup and focus on my own life a little.

Don't you worry I will be doing all of those things before too long.

I am glad that people like you are around. Is FADE still posting here?

Posted by DawnTheOriginaL on November 28, 2007 at 10:35 AM

Just a Paratrooper who went to Ranger school--nothing special.

I don't know about Tammy, except that the governor gave her a job in state Veteran's affairs. As I said, I have been out of it.

Well, I am going to get going. Talk to you all soon

Posted by ranger995 on November 28, 2007 at 10:40

BS nothing special? HA! very special!

I KNOW how HARD that school is - I wrote about it all the time for our paper and dated a few. woo - FOND memories indeed! ;-)

Some day I will upload some of my old photos and show some of you. They are pretty cool. I need to fix this scanner first.

I went up twice with the 1st/75th with plans on jumping with them to continue the story but both times chickened OUT! I'm such a chickenchit! hehe. But I have this bad memory of spraining my ankle a few times and really didn't want to go through that pain again.

yes I chickened out. I was such a girl. :-p

Posted by WallaceMcH on November 28, 2007 at 10:43 AM

when I read about her dad I knew we had a lot in common. Mine was also a republican AND very miserly (he never turned OFF the heat like hers used to) but was very stubborn.

She may INDEED have the fight in her. I hope her thyroid is ok.

Time for fuel

bbl I hope

Peace

Oh, great. The Bavarian burd is here with more B.S.

That Zogby poll is the one that the MSM have been touting for 2 days, and are ignoring ALL the others that basically show that Zogby's online polling relying on people who VOLUNTEER to take his polls is a flawed methodology.

POLLING REPORT.

Read it and WEEP

Dawn, Tammy Duckworth wasn't just given a job with the State VA, she was appointed to be the DIRECTOR of the State Department of Veterans' Affairs.

ranger,

fade found another place to blog where she felt she was doing more good. Hopefully, she will come back from time to time during our 11 month fight.

Glad to hear you will too.

and well they should! This economy sucks!
home sales at 20 yr low. Stock market just playing merry go round. US dollar in tank. etc, etc.

Democrats Switch Tack, Seize on Economic Woes By Jonathan E. Kaplan
The Hill

Wednesday 28 November 2007

Congressional Democrats will focus on the economy next week in an effort to win political advantage from public fears about an approaching recession.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112807L.shtml

Military Progress Doesn't Make War More Popular
By Peter Baker
The Washington Post

Wednesday 28 November 2007

The debate at home over the Iraq war has shifted significantly in the two months since Gen. David H. Petraeus testified to Congress and President Bush ordered the first troop withdrawals, with more Americans now concluding that the situation on the ground is improving.

A new poll released yesterday underscored the changing political environment, finding the public more positive about the military effort in Iraq than at any point in 14 months as a surge of optimism follows the rapid decline in violence. Yet Bush remains as unpopular as ever in the survey by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press, and the public remains just as committed to bringing U.S. troops home.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112807M.shtml

just hate to see all the democratic candidates fighting with each other,

but still, I'll promote my candidate by talking about the shortcomings of others...

i still don't believe obama has the experience fighting the repugs smut machine....

what about edwards, he certainly didn't do much to help out kerry. his speeches in 04' were mundane at best.

Posted by connfloyd on November 28, 2007 at 10:14 AM

Hi All,

New guy here. Thought I'd stop by the DNC and see what was up.

I'm a lifelong Democrat, but my grandfather was a Republican state representative in a western state. I remember him taking me to the floor of the house chamber in our state capital when I was a kid. I'd characterize him as a centrist Repub, the kind who would probably get booted from the party today.

Anyway, I am very concerned about our frontrunner candidates. I respect Sen. Clinton, and I have no problem voting for a strong woman- I am married to one who is the main breadwinner in our household. But I think Hillary will serve as a lightning rod and motivate many Republicans who might otherwise switch parties or stay at home to come and vote against her. It is obvious that "likability" should not be a criterion by which we choose a president, but it is unfortunately a factor for many swing voters, and I do not find her particularly likable. I think the baggage she brings is a huge liability.

I also respect Sen. Obama, but I find it kind of arrogant and surprising that he thinks he should be president at this stage of his career. It is going to take a lot more than charisma to win this election, and to me that is about all he has going for him.

I think Edwards is a more viable candidate, as are Dodd and Biden. Don't get me wrong- I will vote for whoever the Dems field. But I think we are at serious risk of blowing an election that by all rights should be a shoo-in, given the appalling Bush presidency that even some blatant Republican partisans can't ignore.

Neither of the ostensible front runners is that strong of a candidate, IMO, and I think we risk snatching defeat from the jaws of victory next fall unless we seriously consider some others.

Well I'm sure this should provoke some discussion. Just wanted to see what others think...

I guess I'm bak - munching brunch

and I also surmise I am the gullible one here?

lol I seem to just fall for the "I'm new here" line more than anyone else

ok I'll bite

WELCOME New People to the DNC KickyourASS blog if you're BSing me!!

(french not included)\

have fun, don't be hating on each other and you'll be fine!

Posted by GregL on November 28, 2007 at 11:18 AM

for Xmas I'm buying you a BIG LONG POINTER stick with a light at the end so you can point all day!

(lol)

I know I've done it. Haven't you?

(poke)

oooh, a new troll name

they're forcing me to do this - lol kidding but what the hail

Clinton the organized
AP

~a snip to spare you~ :-P~

AGAINST SURPRISES: Clinton, seen here campaigning for her husband in 1992, pushed aides hard for thorough preparation.
As first lady, the senator didn't win every battle. But she was known for showing up thoroughly, perhaps obsessively, prepared.

(that's what I want)

Posted by howdydude on November 28, 2007 at 11:40 AM

I think you made some valid points. We all have to make sure we are not simply ignoring the views of Everyday Joe/Joan Citizen who may be thinking the exact same thing. Sure, it's fun (for some of us) to dream about a female leader, but will those same dreamers actually vote for her? Or will they let their fears overcome their desires?

Posted by DawnTheOriginaL on November 28, 2007 at 11:57 AM

I bash all of them equally, Dawnie...well, ok, Gravel more than the rest, but he's friggin insane. :)

GregL are you talking about me?

The Trolls stole my name DAWN the other day when I was playing around in another name. Should have known better cuz the second I gave it up - the crooks stole it.

this is Dawnie
the original not the troll

I seem to just fall for the "I'm new here" line more than anyone else

Posted by DawnTheOriginaL on November 28, 2007 at 11:52 AM

Naw, it's the "lifelong Democrat" line that usually means "troll"...not always, but usually, and if I'm wrong about ya, howdydude, I'll say so.

(Hmmm, next words, "What's a troll"?)

Posted by GregL on November 28, 2007 at 12:04 PM

true but hey even Gravel is better than ANYthing PUG

I even like some of his more wild ideas even though he'd NEVER get anyone else to go along with it! ;-)

Posted by howdydude on November 28, 2007 at 11:40 AM

Howdy, dood!

Posted by GregL on November 28, 2007 at 12:07 PM

ahhhhh very good Sherlock! I'll start watching for that!

I can't say that line which is probably why I'll buy it from someone else HERE. (LIFELONG DEMOCRAT) I spent a few crazy years as an Independent you know. Crazy! :-/ (Mom and Daughter however can claim that line)

Gravel lost the vote of 'People for the Ethical Treatment of Rocks' with that commercial of his, IMO.

He can't afford to alienate the rock lovers like that. What's next?

He did pick up the vote of 'People Who Just Stare Into A Camera For Prolonged Amounts Of Time', though.

But I will bite on one thing...Obama has more experience in political office than Hillary Clinton or John Edwards. I cannot for the life of me understand where people get this "arrogance" thing from. There's no fucking queue for President. There's no "Take a number". There is only, "Who has the qualities needed for the job". And every one of our Democratic candidates has most, if not all, of the qualities we need in the person that is the chief executor of our laws.

Posted by DawnTheOriginaL on November 28, 2007 at 12:14 PM

S'ok, Dawn...I still AM an independent..one who votes Democratic, but I'm not registered under any party, nor have I taken any type of oath to any party...well, except the party of "Let's drink more Guinness" :)

Posted by GregL on November 28, 2007 at 12:17 PM

Laws, Greg?

Olbermann: “With or without this new law, suppose one of the anti-wiretapping civil lawsuits succeeds, what does that legal victory actually mean then in terms of stopping the government or punishing Alberto Gonzales or any other top officials who were responsible for this?”

Turley: “Well, it can mean a lot and that’s one of the reasons there’s a lot of people, both Democrats and Republicans, who don’t want to see it happen. They don’t want a court to say that the president did something that is a federal crime. That’s why they’re trying to get all these cases thrown out of court because it is rather clear that what the president ordered was a federal crime, clearly defined in federal law. But that causes a problem because many of the Democratic leaders and Republican leaders have promised each other that they would not start impeachment proceedings, but when a federal judge says the president committed a crime, it’s pretty darn hard to ignore that.”

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/28/turley-it-is-rather-clear-that-what-the-president-ordered-was-a-federal-crime/

doobie that was a "custom" commercial for him to put up........ it totally works for his character! LOL yea the po po wittle rocks

Posted by GregL on November 28, 2007 at 12:17 PM

you heathen!! ;-)

Posted by BlueinIdaho on November 28, 2007 at 12:29 PM

speaking of Turley (whom I really like) guess where I saw HIM the other day??? ON the History channel on a show about Roswell. He was about 20 yrs younger being interviewed about workers rights at a place that ON PAPER didn't exist!

It was WILD seeing him so much younger. Still a hottie today. (jmo)

Blue

Is this what they call a Quandary?

Ha more like a SNAFU

Posted by BlueinIdaho on November 28, 2007 at 12:29 PM

Blue? Point being? My rant was on the fact that our (and I can use "our" because it is the party I am supporting in this election) Democratic candidates WILL restore law and order and dignity to the White House no matter which of them is elected...but if we get Kucinich, do you think we could get Federal money for the UFO museum in Roswell? :)

Posted by DawnTheOriginaL on November 28, 2007 at 12:52 PM

Linky no worky. :(

Dang! Linky no worky

doesn't matter I was just ...... a n y w a y

What happens to campaign money that is not used? Are these accounts used for personal reasons? Does unspent money need to be given back or put back in the government? It seems one could get rich from these funds. If these funds are used for other reasons is the money then taxed and listed as income?

Posted by GregL on November 28, 2007 at 12:54 PM

My point is much the same as yours. The GOPers think that laws are for poor people, unless of course, they happen to be poor at the time.

I sure wish the aliens would help us out here and beam up Chainee. :)

bbl.

the link was to websters with a definition of

Main Entry: quan·da·ry
Pronunciation: 'kwän-d(&-)rE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1579
: a state of perplexity or doubt

and I still think SNAFU is better but had to explain...

I guess I'd better get ready for the tour.
any requests for any pictures?

Posted by BlueinIdaho on November 28, 2007 at 12:59 PM

Ok, so you wuz just bouncing off my rant...I do that myself sometimes. First time that it ever confused me, though :)

Dawn, take a picture of the vault!

I sure wish the aliens would help us out here and beam up Chainee. :)

Posted by BlueinIdaho on November 28, 2007 at 12:59 PM

what self respecting alien would WANT tricky dicky ? A mutant of the Human race! No brain, no heart to observe.

I will be voting a third party this coming election. Who knows, maybe even a moderate Republican. Thank you for the continued dissappointment, it will make my choices easier this coming election.
Posted by k_bar43 on November 28, 2007
can you point out a moderate repub?

my new post
i have voted repub since i was eighteen, i voted that way because i thought the repub party was the party of jesus, i was so excited to cast my first vote for ronnie reagan. i thought his trickle down economic theory was really going to make poor peoples lives better (turns out it just made the rich richer). at least we were still the moral majority, then i started to compare the party of jesus to jesus. help the poor, not on GOP plank, help children, elderly, nope. turn the other cheek, forgive my brother 7x7 times? nope. while i never doubted and don't to this day that military force is sometimes necessary, i always thought it would be as a least resort. now with the number of repub congressman going to jail, run out for sex scandals... i guess i could vote 3rd party and with 3% of america make no difference at all other that to prove we can get 3%. nah i will vote dem this time and remove the false prophets from office.

Hi,all!

I have a question about one of the issues where the Dems (imho)seem to be out of touch with the populace.

This issue is ILLEGAL immigration. Not immigration following the law. From what I've seen on TV and read in different articles, it seems that there is a big disconnect between the words LEGAL IMMIGRATION and ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

I have no problems with anyone from anywhere coming to live and become a US citizen. IMHO, they are welcome to make a better life for themselves and their families by coming here, so long as they follow the rules.

I do have a problem with people from anywhere, regardless of skin color, birthplace, etc, sneaking into the country. They show disrespect for the law and for those immigrants who have followed the rules and done what they were supposed to do to be here legally. They are criminals for coming here in contravention of the law.

These illegal immigrants (calling them undocumented is a mealy mouthed way to avoid calling them what they are, ILLEGAL immigrants) are here only because they broke the law. Why should criminals be given the right to become citizens?

They may never break another law in all their time here, but that doesn't seem logical or reasonable to me. Once one has committed one crime, it seems to me that breaking other laws would become easier.

Legal immigrants have documents proving who they are and that they have come here the right way, that's why they are called documented immigrants. They have had the background checks done, they are taking classes to learn our ways and our common language, and while some may indeed go on to commit crimes, at least they come to this country and start with a fresh slate, not criminals from the get-go.

Why should the Democratic party appear to be soft on ILLEGAL immigration? I don't understand this.

The "Comprehensive Reform" of the immigration laws put forward by Dems in Congress was nothing more than another amnesty for all those here illegally. The bill allowed criminals to become citizens simply by paying a fine. No going back to their country and following the entire process that legal immigrants follow. No real punishment for being here illegally in the first place, only a fine, no jail time. Illegal immigration is only a misdemeanor, but that is still good for up to a year in federal custody as punishment for being a criminal.

What does that say to LEGAL immigrants who may have spent a few years to go through the legal measures and to pay the processing costs to come here? It says that we disrespect them and their sacrifices to come here legally. It says we value their contributions to this country at the same value as those who are criminals for the way they came here - very low.

Illegal immigration benefits mainly the businesses & corporations, not the people in general. Illegal immigration drives wages downward for all. Illegal immigration puts a heavy strain on schools, hospitals, law enforcement, and other sectors of American life by demanding these services without contributing financially by paying taxes - how can one pay taxes if they have no legit Social Security card and aren't supposed to be here in the first place?

Yes, I know about FTID, the federal taxpayer ID number, which may take the place of a SSAN, but (if my info is correct) FTIDs are only supposed to go to people who employ others; and that's simply to pay federal taxes - and the IRS doesn't care if you are a legal or illegal, they just want the taxes.

These workers are often paid under the table, off the books, and so taxes and things like worker's compensation are not paid on those workers. If they get hurt they go to hospital, but often cannot or do not pay for the services - the illegal immigrant usually simply cannot afford to pay for the high price of medical services.

Because they are illegal and cannot complain, they work for less than the job is worth, probably pay no taxes on their income, but have kids in our schools, use hospital emergency departments for their healthcare (and don't pay for the services), and are not in the tax base to support police, fire, medical and other societal purposes.

Again, these are the perceptions I have about this issue. My mind is not closed, but rather open to discussion and persuasion. I am not a troll like some that post here, I believe I have a legit question that needs answering with more than empty rhetoric.

Swooper, according to Pew's Immigration poll done in June of this year 63% of those polled support providing a way for illegal immigrants already here to gain citizenship and a slim majority support 'amnesty'.

Mixed Views on Immigration Bill

Good Morning to All,

TOPIC: DUMPING OF INMATES AND CRIMINAL BY REPUBLICAN STATES.

The interesting aspect about Mitt Romney's Willie Horton escapade is it brings to light what East Coast and Southern politicians and judges have been doing for years. The repugnant x-tian reich have been exporting all their criminals and inmates on early release to Western States.
Years ago as Giuliani was claiming he reduced the crime in New York; secretly his courts appointed judges were shipping inmates to Washington, Oregon and California. He was overwhelming our police and mental institutions with his early release criminals.

Now the evidence show Daniel Tavares Jr. convicted murdered in the state of Massachusetts, who was denied parole and requested to be denied parole by the parole board for violence, was released by Mitt Romney’s court appointed judge given a one way ticket to Washington State. In Washington he murdered a couple, Brian (30) and Beverly (28) Mauck in their home, Graham Washington.

When you see some of the TV reality shows that roam the streets of Seattle, Portland and Hollywood California; one discovers the drug addicts and children-teens that roam the streets are disguarded republican state children.
On a visit to Hawaii recently and ran into an aggressive pan-handler dressed like a Rastafarian and smelling of pot; he spoke with a southern twang and stated came from South Carolina. These republicans are doing a poor job rehabilitating their inmate population then dumping them on other states!

Someone should investigate this issue; if this is how republicans fix their crime problems than we are going to be in a big mess when another one is elected president and appoint judges who enjoys writing one way tickets for criminals to other states!

Legal immigrants have documents proving who they are (or at least who they want us to think they are) and that they have come here the right way, that's why they are called documented immigrants. They have had the background checks done (except when they haven't), they are taking classes to learn our ways and how to fly commercial airliners and our common language (that would be Mangled-lish), and while some may indeed go on to commit crimes (at least 19 of them), at least they come to this country and start with a fresh slate, not criminals from the get-go (well, maybe some).

Posted by Swooper420 on November 28, 2007 at 01:36 PM

Bold type are my comments...I'm in a "let's make fun of the immigration troll" mood today :)

Immigration of Problem Inmates and Criminals from Republican states is a bigger issue than Mexican Immigrants. Republican states have ranked the worst in criminal rehabilitation U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics; 50% to 60% recidivism rate The republican states have a higher rate of recidivism – return to crime - second time offenders. Now we have evidence republican appointed judges just dumping their problem criminals to other states.

The "Comprehensive Reform" of the immigration laws put forward by Dems in Congress was nothing more than another amnesty for all those here illegally. The bill allowed criminals to become citizens simply by paying a fine. No going back to their country and following the entire process that legal immigrants follow. No real punishment for being here illegally in the first place, only a fine, no jail time. Illegal immigration is only a misdemeanor, but that is still good for up to a year in federal custody as punishment for being a criminal.

well, Swoop, could you plese send me your name , address and SS number, so I can tell the US Government that YOU will be happy to pay MY share of the cost of rounding up, holding and feeding, and then transporting back to Mexico, Guatamala, Paraguay, China, and all the other countries they came from?

Thank you very much. I appreciate your help.

Hybrid, I'm sorry but you honestly are off base on the Tavares case.

I read the transcript for the bail hearing where the judge ruled to let him out and the prosecutors provided NO information regarding the threats to Romney or that he may flee the area...they were practically silent through the hearing.

Well, GregL, who is the real troll here? I have made a total of 2 posts here, yet you want to call me a troll for asking a serious question that i was hoping to get serious discussion about.

Too bad you decided to play the smart-ass and be flip about the question.

Why not grow up before inflicting yourself into the discussion again.

...oh excuse me; some states in the south have recidivism of 94%!!

Hybrid, here is the transcript. I agree with Blue, the judge in this case ruled according to the law and the information provided.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2007/11/26/2004036435.pdf

3 Canadian soldiers injured in Afghanistan
Three Canadian soldiers were injured in Afghanistan after their vehicle ran over a roadside bomb near Kandahar. The troops were on patrol when the light armoured vehicle they were riding in drove over an improvised explosive device at about 10 a.m. Wednesday morning, The Canadian Press reports.
Full Story:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071128/soldiers_injured_071128/20071128?hub=World

Iraq Female Suicide Bomber
A woman wearing an explosive belt blew herself up in Baquba, wounding seven American soldiers and five Iraqis, the U.S. military said Wednesday. Full Story:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/28/iraq.main/index.html

Afghan airstrike kills road crew
U.S.-led coalition troops killed 14 road construction workers in airstrikes in eastern Afghanistan because of mistaken intelligence reports, Afghan officials said Wednesday.
Full Story:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/28/afghanistan.airstrike.ap/index.html

you want to call me a troll for asking a serious question that i was hoping to get serious discussion about.

We have 'discussed' this subject for the last year. Been there, done that. doesn't amount to a hill of beans , those who want them beaten and thrown out, and those who want to coronate them !

Why don't you try starting with your senators and congressmen, then go on to the DSCC and the DCCC and make your pitch there?

from today's wj urinal:

Head of Rove Inquiry in Hot Seat Himself
Bloch Used Private Company,
Geeks on Call, to Delete Files
On His Office Computer
By JOHN R. WILKE
November 28, 2007; Page A6

WASHINGTON -- The head of the federal agency investigating Karl Rove's White House political operation is facing allegations that he improperly deleted computer files during another probe, using a private computer-help company, Geeks on Call.

Scott Bloch runs the Office of Special Counsel, an agency charged with protecting government whistleblowers and enforcing a ban on federal employees engaging in partisan political activity. Mr. Bloch's agency is looking into whether Mr. Rove and other White House officials used government agencies to help re-elect Republicans in 2006.

At the same time, Mr. Bloch has himself been under investigation since 2005. At the direction of the White House, the federal Office of Personnel Management's inspector general is looking into claims that Mr. Bloch improperly retaliated against employees and dismissed whistleblower cases without adequate examination.
[Scott Bloch]

Recently, investigators learned that Mr. Bloch erased all the files on his office personal computer late last year. They are now trying to determine whether the deletions were improper or part of a cover-up, lawyers close to the case said.

Bypassing his agency's computer technicians, Mr. Bloch phoned 1-800-905-GEEKS for Geeks on Call, the mobile PC-help service. It dispatched a technician in one of its signature PT Cruiser wagons. In an interview, the 49-year-old former labor-law litigator from Lawrence, Kan., confirmed that he contacted Geeks on Call but said he was trying to eradicate a virus that had seized control of his computer...

brining new meaning to the expression "dumb mutha f_ _ _ _ _ s

I'm just a dummy, I don't have any answers, just questions. Why is it not important to first seal our borders to keep people from sneaking into this country, anyone of whom could be a terrorist and start blowing things (and us)up? How are we going to deport 12 million people? Do we have the time, the money, the the agents to do this? I don't know.

My mind is not closed, but rather open to discussion and persuasion.
Posted by Swooper420 on November 28, 2007

many of the issues you raised are true, and some are twists. the immigration reform bill was pushed by GW himself as boasted on the whitehouse site http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/immigration/
secondly the immigrants who come here "legally" have you ever been through the process of "legal" immigration? the process of bribing the locals in my opinion is anything but legal.
as for paying them under the table, who is to blame for that? more illegals pay into the system with no hope of ever drawing out than are paid under the table. as for driving down wages of no skill jobs, migrant work, how can you drive the wages below minimum unless the employer is breaking the law (see paid under the table) another thing is since they are paid such low wages, they will be forced to spend all their money in the local economy, thereby providing taxes and employment for everyone. now as for softness on illegals, if employers were given giant fines for hiring them, more fines for not complying with min wage, and prison time for employers who pay "under the table" in violation of the tax codes we as americans know. does this all sound tough enough? like kevin costner said "if you build it they will come." as long as jobs are avail and these people need to feed their families, they will come. i thank god i was born here, but if i wasn't and there was a way to feed my kids, i would do it. (providing i wasn't hurting people to make that money, i.e. selling drugs, killing...)
very lastly your post sounds more like push polling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll
than openmindeness

Now, haven't they said right along to Bush, nothing will be accomplished unless he included Iran and Hamas in the talks? Why does that idiot never ever listen????? There MIGHT be some real peace negotiated if he had invited all parties involved ! Whether he likes them or not, Iran and Hamas are part of the Middle East!

"As would-be peacemakers bask in the international limelight of the Annapolis conference, back in the Middle East two other parties are serving up notice that no deal will come to pass, if they can help it: Iran and its Palestinian ally, Hamas. "The Annapolis conference was already a failure," Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told journalists after a cabinet meeting in Tehran on Wednesday. The U.S. could sponsor a hundred such meetings, he added, and the result would be the same. In Gaza, which is effectively ruled by the fundamentalist Hamas group, anti-Annapolis protesters filled the streets. "They can go to thousands of conferences and we will say in the name of the Palestinian people that we do not accept," Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar told the demonstrators.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20071128/wl_time/caniranandhamassinkannapolis

GregL: "But I will bite on one thing...Obama has more experience in political office than Hillary Clinton or John Edwards. I cannot for the life of me understand where people get this "arrogance" thing from. There's no fucking queue for President. There's no "Take a number". There is only, "Who has the qualities needed for the job". And every one of our Democratic candidates has most, if not all, of the qualities we need in the person that is the chief executor of our laws."

OK, point taken. I do need to familiarize myself more with Obama's record. And "arrogance" was a poor choice of words. In Edwards's case, simply being on the national stage for several years longer than Obama does not necessarily make him more experienced, I will admit that. I had the same question about him when he ran in 2004, but gradually warmed up to him and his message. I suppose I do need to be consistent.

RE Clinton- Technically your point is correct, although IMO 8 years as first lady, active in policy matters and confidant of Bill (as opposed to just being a decoration like most Repub 1st ladies) counts as very useful experience.

I think this experience with realities of the ups and downs of pushing both domestic and foreign policy agendas would make her more pragmatic and effective than Obama, who I think might be more subject to mis-steps and related lack of effectiveness at getting things done ala Carter.

My first choices would be Biden or Dodd. Intelligent, experienced, no need to get up to speed on how Washington works. There is no time for that. I'm surprised neither of them are on peoples' radar more, probably due to lack of money and charisma. Or being perceived as old-guard, insiders when some think we need "new blood".

RE being a "life-long" Democrat: Yes they do exist. I have voted, and voted a straight Democrat ticket, in every election since 1976 when I turned 18. I even voted for Dukakis fer Chrissake! I've been tempted to vote Green on occasion, and I strongly believe a multi-party or parliamentary system is badly needed. But in the end, I want my vote to count and getting rid of Republicans is more important than making a "statement", aka wasting my vote.

There have been Republicans that I respect for their intelligence and abilities, but I have fundamental differences with the Republican agenda and basic philosophy regarding the ability of "free" market capitalism to solve all of our problems. And then there are their positions on the environment, defense, womens' and minority rights, free speech and media conglomeration, etc, etc, etc. ad infinitum. These considerations prevent me from EVER voting Republican. And these distinctions have become much more stark over the past 15 years as the Repubs have swung ever farther to the right and jettisoned their centrist members.

On an unrelated matter, I know I'm a techno-luddite, but can someone fill me in on how to use the formatting buttons at the top right hand side of the comment box? Whenever I try to use one of them, it just shoots me to the top of this page. Thx.

GregL: "But I will bite on one thing...Obama has more experience in political office than Hillary Clinton or John Edwards. I cannot for the life of me understand where people get this "arrogance" thing from. There's no fucking queue for President. There's no "Take a number". There is only, "Who has the qualities needed for the job". And every one of our Democratic candidates has most, if not all, of the qualities we need in the person that is the chief executor of our laws."

OK, point taken. I do need to familiarize myself more with Obama's record. And "arrogance" was a poor choice of words. In Edwards's case, simply being on the national stage for several years longer than Obama does not necessarily make him more experienced, I will admit that. I had the same question about him when he ran in 2004, but gradually warmed up to him and his message. I suppose I do need to be consistent.

RE Clinton- Technically your point is correct, although IMO 8 years as first lady, active in policy matters and confidant of Bill (as opposed to just being a decoration like most Repub 1st ladies) counts as very useful experience.

I think this experience with realities of the ups and downs of pushing both domestic and foreign policy agendas would make her more pragmatic and effective than Obama, who I think might be more subject to mis-steps and related lack of effectiveness at getting things done ala Carter.

My first choices would be Biden or Dodd. Intelligent, experienced, no need to get up to speed on how Washington works. There is no time for that. I'm surprised neither of them are on peoples' radar more, probably due to lack of money and charisma. Or being perceived as old-guard, insiders when some think we need "new blood".

RE being a "life-long" Democrat: Yes they do exist. I have voted, and voted a straight Democrat ticket, in every election since 1976 when I turned 18. I even voted for Dukakis fer Chrissake! I've been tempted to vote Green on occasion, and I strongly believe a multi-party or parliamentary system is badly needed. But in the end, I want my vote to count and getting rid of Republicans is more important than making a "statement", aka wasting my vote.

There have been Republicans that I respect for their intelligence and abilities, but I have fundamental differences with the Republican agenda and basic philosophy regarding the ability of "free" market capitalism to solve all of our problems. And then there are their positions on the environment, defense, womens' and minority rights, free speech and media conglomeration, etc, etc, etc. ad infinitum. These considerations prevent me from EVER voting Republican. And these distinctions have become much more stark over the past 15 years as the Repubs have swung ever farther to the right and jettisoned their centrist members.

On an unrelated matter, I know I'm a techno-luddite, but can someone fill me in on how to use the formatting buttons at the top right hand side of the comment box? Whenever I try to use one of them, it just shoots me to the top of this page. Thx.

Kristen,

The bail hearing for his offense in Washington state is a different issue from Massachusetts parole hearing.

CNN and MSNBC reported the mass parole board had requested denying Travares parole.

1) "The prosecutors in Massachusetts tried to keep him in prison for alleged asaults on two prison guards."

2) "Massachusetts State Police suspected Tavares misht be living in Washington Sate and based on the earlier threat against Romney, waned him before his campaign apprearance last week in Seattle are, Fehrnstrom said." So how did Romney's people know where Tavares lived!!

3) A district court judge approved bail of $50,000, but in July, Tuttman overturned the decision and freed Tavares on personal recognizance.

4) During the hearing before Tuttman, prosecutors underscored Tavares' history of violence and asked than, if he were released, he be monitored with a GPS device. ...and he had volunteered for electronic monitoring. This did not happen!

The News Tribune.com, Nov. 28, 2007

Hi Alamo,

Hey, I have a picture of me taken in front of YOU! Nice to meet you !

I AGREE. WHEN is some one from the Dem party going to say his FIRST day in office, he will hire back the 2500 Border Agents fired under Bush, and get them on the Borders. IN fact that he/she will hire another couple thousand and FINALLY, stop the flow. THEN we can make decisions on those already here.

As far as the costs go, I think Mr. Swoop above is willing to pay all our share of the cost of this.

Sorry about the double post. Is there any way to delete one of them?

Howdydude, welcome. The reason your post was met with skeptism is because on a daily basis we get new names popping in here that start out claiming they are 'life long democrats' or something to that nature and within two posts start to bash the heck out of everything Democrat.

This is generally why people first assume a person is a 'troll' here.

Believe me, there are many life long Democrats here.

Welcome to the discussion. There was a recent column done regarding many of these you bring up on the strength of the candidates. If you are interested I'll post the link.

heeeheeeee, Remember when Republicans goose stepped and rubber stamped each other to the point you wanted to tell them to 'get a room'? Not so anymore .............

"ST. PETERSBURG, Florida (Reuters) - Republican presidential candidates headed into a CNN/YouTube debate on Wednesday bickering over illegal immigration and taxes while looking for ways to break out of the pack.

Plenty of fireworks were expected at the event, whose unusual format -- tech-savvy citizens sending in often-comical questions via video -- will likely play a prominent role.

The last CNN/YouTube debate, involving the Democrats, featured among the quirky questions a snowman asking about global warming. Republicans were initially reluctant to participate in one of their own.

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, leading national polls, and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, at the top of polls in the early voting states of Iowa and New Hampshire, in recent days have engaged in a withering cross-fire over such issues as illegal immigration and taxes and spending.

Each accused the other of either increasing taxes in their home regions or turning a blind eye to illegal immigration -- two hot-button issues for Republicans. They have also each declared the other a Republican version of Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton.

Some experts wonder if the bitter back-and-forth will drive voters away from them and toward another candidate, such as Arizona Sen. John McCain, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee or former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson, all of whom are portraying themselves as the real conservative in the race.

"Challenging an opponent like that scores points, but it also drives voters away from both of you and builds up a third party," said Republican strategist Scott Reed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/usa_politics_republicans_dc

Posted by howdydude on November 28, 2007

such a good post i didn't mind the double, unless it was a double negative which i never really understood. as for ms. clinton or mr. obama, or even mr edwards since dawns polls keeps saying i am an edwards fan, or biden or any of the dems i would take over the divide, seperate and "conquer" candidates i see from the other side. watch tonight and you will see them fight over who is the most conservative among them, then carefully listen to what they call conservative. if that is conservatism, i am glad to consider myself a lib.

Kristen,

..like you but you've go tooo little information from a single source. Check out the Boston Globe, CNN, MSNBC, the newstribune, etc. etc. etc...

I think I nailed it pretty!

Seattle Times is only reporting on the last event of Tuttman's rush to release Tavares. ...and that is what the transcript reads. But the file with all the history tells a different story!

Hybrid, again your are not tracking. The judge that ultimately released him in Massachusetts was ruling on BAIL for two assault charges that happened while he was in prison.

Why don't you read the link I actually provided instead of assuming that I haven't followed the story that literally happened in my community.

Another rat jumping from the sinking Lame duck ship!!!

Bush Economic Adviser Leaving, President Announcing His Choice for Replacement Wed.

President Bush will announce on Wednesday that Keith Hennessey is his pick to be chairman of the National Economic Council, replacing Al Hubbard, who is joining a growing line of top presidential advisers exiting the White House as the Bush administration heads into its final year.

Hennessey, who came to the White House in 2002, is Hubbard's deputy and also has been deputy to two previous directors of the National Economic Council. He served as a top budget aide to Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., and he also worked for the Senate Budget Committee

http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Bush_economic_adviser_stepping_down_11282007.html

very lastly your post sounds more like push polling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_pollthan openmindeness

Posted by jimmyc451 on November 28, 2007 at 02:16 PM

Or, as we like to call it around here "troll tactics" :)

On an unrelated matter, I know I'm a techno-luddite, but can someone fill me in on how to use the formatting buttons at the top right hand side of the comment box? Whenever I try to use one of them, it just shoots me to the top of this page. Thx.

Posted by howdydude on November 28, 2007 at 02:21 PM

howdydude, you have to type your text in, highlight it, and then hit the formatting buttons.

So who says the Surge is working? Is it just another Bush/Military lie about violence to make Americans think it is going well?

Grim View of Iraq Dangers in Survey of Journalists

In a newly released survey, American journalists in Iraq give harrowing accounts of their work, with the great majority saying that colleagues have been kidnapped or killed and that most parts of Baghdad are too dangerous for them to visit.

The survey was conducted by the Project for Excellence in Journalism, an arm of the nonpartisan Pew Research Center in Washington. Of the 111 journalists who participated, half had spent at least nine months in Iraq, and three-quarters had experience reporting on other armed conflicts. Most of the journalists were surveyed in October, one of the least deadly months in Baghdad in recent years.

The Americans also voiced serious concerns about how effectively they were able to do their own jobs. Most respondents said that the media did not do a good job covering the lives of ordinary Iraqis or reconstruction efforts, simply because those lines of reporting could be deadly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/business/media/28pew.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Again Kristen,

Please read a little more than the last story about Tuttman releasing Tavares. Read the story about his previous hearing by another district judge in July 2007 who set bail at $50,000 and there were testimony about his two violent acts on prison guards.

howdydude, you have to type your text in, highlight it, and then hit the formatting buttons.

Ah ha. That works. thanks.

At least I'm trainable, as my wife says...

howdydude, you have to type your text in, highlight it, and then hit the formatting buttons.

Ah ha. That worked, thanks.

At least I'm trainable, as my wife says...

Oh, Lordy, NOOOO ! You mean Global Warming is NOT a Liberal Conspiracy theory, just to raise taxes on those poor poor Republicans!? We will have some very sad Wallet voters out there today!

"The man whom the people elected in 2000 to be president was in the temporary residence of the man whom the Supreme Court anointed.

President George W. Bush hosted former Vice-President Al Gore, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, and five other Nobel laureates, Nov. 26. This annual handshake photo-op has been an American tradition.

The Nobel committee had cited Gore, Oct. 12, as "probably the single individual who has done most to create greater worldwide understanding of the measures that need to be adopted" to reduce global warming. Gore shared the Nobel Peace Prize with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a UN network of about 2,000 scientists, who have shown that global warming isn't a liberal conspiracy theory.

Believing that it is some kind of liberal conspiracy theory are the fringe right-wing who dominate Talk Radio and Pundit TV.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/11267

Why does that idiot never ever listen?????

Posted by PamB on November 28, 2007 at 02:19 PM

Why ask why? Try Bud Dry.

Posted by HybridFuel on November 28, 2007 at 02:43 PM

Hybrid, after all these years I've learned the best I can hope is that others will not take your rantings as fact and do a bit more reading on their own.

Good afternoon fellow Democrats.

Posted by PamB on November 28, 2007 at 02:24 PM I hope I didn't mess up your picture.
You're right, it is two separate issues and securing our borders should be of utmost importance to all politicians. If they want to stay in office.

Why does that idiot never ever listen?????

Posted by PamB on November 28, 2007 at 02:19 PM

When you hear the voice of G'd in your head, who has time to notice anything else.

Illegal immigration benefits mainly the businesses & corporations, not the people in general. Illegal immigration drives wages downward for all. Illegal immigration puts a heavy strain on schools, hospitals, law enforcement, and other sectors of American life by demanding these services without contributing financially by paying taxes - how can one pay taxes if they have no legit Social Security card and aren't supposed to be here in the first place?

Posted by Swooper420 on November 28, 2007 at 01:36 PM

Nothing you have said is untrue, but if you want to place some of that frustrtion where it RIGHTLY belongs it's with Big Business/Corporate world. They are reason these folks are over here, period.

Want to blame someone??? Blame the Clinton and all the Bush Administrations that set up trade agreements that were purposefully done to devastate the economies of countries like Mexico forcing their population to either starve or leave. Wouldn't you leave a place that you couldn't eat or keep a roof over your head??? And whether it involved sneaking or not??? I understand the law perfectly and know very well why it exists, BUT I also know that something else out weighs it by a mile - and that's self-preservation.

The events were arranged so that the business world could prosper off the backs of the illegals. What they couldn't outsource away from this country to reduce labor costs they made up for with labor from the illegals.

The blame belongs squarely and solidly with the corporate world. They sh