Evening Open Thread
Chat away...
Comments (208) «
Good evening, Dems! Just a quick stop. When I was here the other day, I saw a post regarding NAFTA and Clinton. Here is the correct story:
Obama Campaign Continues Dishonest Attacks On Hillary and NAFTAIn a memo released today from allies, the Obama campaign repeats a charge that's been 'widely criticized as bogus' about Hillary's position on NAFTA. From the memo:
As late as September 2006, Senator Clinton touted the President Clinton’s support for NAFTA.
And again:AS LATE AS SEPTEMBER 2006: Hillary Said NAFTA Was A Victory For President Clinton, Would Lead To An Economic Improvement.
In fact, Hillary didn't say this in September 2006. The Obama campaign cites a Newsday article that asserts what Hillary "thinks" about NAFTA without any substantiation.The Obama campaign then cites an article from 12 years ago that also doesn't quote Hillary and her book, where Hillary mentions NAFTA as something that passed through Congress in 1996. That's why the Politico called a piece of mail featuring the same claim "bogus" and noted the Obama campaign has failed to produce any evidence that she championed NAFTA.
The Obama campaign fails to mention that he is not calling for the repeal of NAFTA and believes "it's not realistic to expect to renegotiate NAFTA." [Crain's Chicago Business, 2/16/04]
Based on his positions in Illinois and the United States Senate, the National Journal concluded that Sen. Obama was "the most likely presidential candidate to support further trade liberalization." Sen. Obama opposed an amendment that would have prevented the weakening of laws that protect against unfair trade practices. (Hillary supported the amendment.) Sen. Obama also supports fast track authority.
Today's Republican of the Week is Jerry Airola. This Nevada Republican fund raiser lost an election for sheriff when it was shown that he lied about his police experience. He now is accused of running a pyramid scheme involving student loan money that will still have to be paid back. So what does Nevada's Republican governor do? Appoint him to the state's economic development board.
Afghanistan Suicide bombing kills 80
Afghanistan has suffered what is being called the deadliest terror attack in its history.
A suicide bomber attacked an outdoor dogfighting competition on the outskirts of Kandahar on Sunday, leaving 80 people dead and another 75 wounded,according to Afghan government sources.
Some witnesses say more than 100 people were killed. Full Story:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080217/afghan_blast_080217/20080217?hub=TopStories
From the state senator in Florida who introduced the early primary bill..this odd statement:
"If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."
Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in Denver.
He is still standing by his efforts to push the primary on Jan. 29. His fellow Democrats joined him to vote yes 115 to 1.
How'd that work out, Senator Jeremy Ring?
Latinos to Show Hillary Support
Hillary will bring change, experience and hope to the White House! Hillary will bring our voices and our concerns to the Whitehouse. Support Hillary and help push her on to Victory!
See link below how you can help:
http://www.latinosforclinton.com
Time is running out and voters need to stop and think about the big picture in November instead if you want a Democratic President.
Hillary Clinton Is the Democrat To Beat John McCain. Why Hillary and not Obama? During this campaign, one of the key arguments for Hillary's candidacy is that she's tested, vetted and ready to lead on day one. How does this factor into voters' decisions now that it appears John McCain will be the Republican nominee? Let's envision how a general election between the Democratic nominee and John McCain will unfold, based on recent elections:
The GOP Attack Machine Will Redefine the Democratic Candidate; Hillary Has Withstood That Process.As soon as the Democratic nominee is selected, the entire force of the GOP attack machine will bear down on that nominee. It was able to skew public perceptions of two well-respected Democrats, Al Gore and John Kerry, creating impressions about them that were wildly out of step with reality. Hillary Clinton has withstood the full brunt of that machine and actually emerged stronger. John McCain Will Run on National Security; Hillary Wins That Argument.
When it came to national security, "strong and wrong" won out over "right and weak" in the 2002 and 2004 elections. With Hillary, that is not and will not be an issue: Based on what they know of her and her experience, voters believe Hillary is fully ready to be commander in chief. She will be strong and right. Voters know she has the right policies - ending the war in Iraq, re-establishing our relations with our allies - and they know she has the strength of leadership that America's next president will need in a world that can turn dangerous in an instant. As such, the Republicans will not be able to play the national security card against Hillary Clinton, like they are now doing against Senator Obama, and that makes her a fundamentally stronger candidate against John McCain.
Case in point is what George Bush said on about Senator Obama, "I certainly don't know what he believes in. The only foreign policy thing I remember he said was he's going to attack Pakistan and embrace Ahmadinejad." With Hillary, the Republicans' national security argument blunted and the election debate will shift to healthcare and the economy - areas of decisive strength for Hillary.
The Resiliency of Senator Obama's Coalition Will Be Tested; Hillary's Coalition Is Stronger.
Do you need any other reasons?
http://hillaryclinton.com/?splash=1
Listen to Cher express her support as she endorses Hillary Clinton for President:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Zi32xSs-U
"Nuestra Amiga" señala que Hillary es la candidata que entiende tanto a la comunidad latina, como los problemas a los que se enfrenta –falta de cuidado de salud, la crisis económica, y los altos costos de vida.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/video/116.aspx
Texas For Hillary
Volunteer in Texas
On March 4, the Texas primary will help decide who will become the next president. We know that Hillary has the strength and experience to lead on day one, and we need to reach out to as many voters as we can in Texas and tell them about her vision for the country. Here are just two ways you can get started now:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/hq/texas
Rio Grande Valley Elected Officials
Endorsing Hillary:
"The people of the Rio Grande Valley know Hillary Clinton, view her as an adopted Texan, and have witnessed first-hand her commitment to improve their quality of life. They know that she is the best candidate to deliver solutions in the future, because she has been delivering needed change to their lives for over 30 years," Congressman Ruben Hinojosa said. "Hillary will work to fix our economy, expand access to affordable health care, and protecting our nation's soldiers. We stand with Hillary because she has and will continue to stand with us.
Read more . . .
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=5995
Hillary Clinton’s Fair Credit For Families Agenda
A Comprehensive Plan To Address Credit Card Abuses, Promote Fair Lending, And Expand Access To Fair Credit In Ohio and Across America
Read more . . .
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=5998
Ohio For Hillary
Volunteer in Ohio
Your support will make all the difference in helping Hillary win Ohio. Here are just two ways you can get started now:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/hq/ohio
Hillary Clinton picks up Madonna's endorsement
The "Material Girl" has endorsed Hillary Clinton for President."I’ve gotta support the girls," Madonna said, "I’m a big fan of the Clintons.”
Rhode Island For Hillary
Volunteer in Rhode Island
Here are just two ways you can get started now:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/hq/rhodeisland
It's going to take another Clinton to clean up after another Bush mess!
Learn and hear more about Hillary from those who know her well. See link below:
http://www.thehillaryiknow.com
General Wesley Clark dismisses the attacks against Hillary and says he trusts her to deal with the many challenges that America faces around the world. Watch the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWUpWfBMslM
President Bill Clinton talks about Hillary's life of public service and why she's the right choice to be president. Watch the video:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/video/27.aspx
Tucker Carlson on Obama's church: "[I]t's hard to call that Christianity"
During the "Obameter" segment on the February 7 edition of MSNBC's Tucker, host Tucker Carlson criticized Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), a presumptive candidate for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, for being a member of a church that Carlson claimed "sounds separatist to me" and "contradicts the basic tenets of Christianity," a subject Carlson said he was "actually qualified to discuss."
Full Story:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200702090009
Top Clinton Adviser Says Superdelegates Will Decide Election, Obama’s Victories ‘Irrelevant’
by FOXNews.com
Saturday, February 16, 2008
Excerpted from the February 16, 2008 article.
Harold Ickes, a 40-year Democratic party operative charged with winning over superdelegates for the Clinton campaign, made no apologies on Saturday for the campaign’s convention strategy.
“We’re going to win this nomination,” Ickes said, adding that they would do so soon after the last contest on June 7 in Puerto Rico. “You’re not going to see this go to the convention floor.” Ickes predicted Clinton and Obama would run “neck and neck” in the remaining states and that there would be a “minuscule amount of difference” between the two in pledged delegates. But he said superdelegates — who “have a sense of what it takes to get elected” — would determine the outcome and side in larger numbers for Clinton.
Even though averages of head-to-head polls on RealClearPolitics.com show Obama beating presumptive GOP nominee John McCain in a general election and Clinton losing, the Clinton camp is stressing the electability argument. Ickes said superdelegates must “exercise their best judgment” about who can win the White House. In essence, he argued the party’s 795 superdelegates (Connecticut Independent-Democrat Sen. Joe Lieberman recently was stripped of his superdelegate status) were in a better position to assess electability and suitability for the presidency than party regulars who will attend the national convention in late August as pledged delegates.
He also said Michigan and Florida, which voted for Clinton, should have delegates seated at the convention, even though he originally voted with the national party last year to strip the delegates because the states violated party rules by holding early primaries. Ickes explained that his different position is due to the different hats he wears as both a Democratic National Committee member and a Clinton adviser in charge of delegate counting.
Obama Campaign Manager David Plouffe on Saturday blasted Clinton for the strategy. “The Clinton campaign just said they have two options for trying to win the nomination — attempting to have superdelegates overturn the will of the Democratic voters, or change the rules they agreed to, at the eleventh hour, in order to seat non-existent delegates from Florida and Michigan,” he said in a statement. “The Clinton campaign should focus on winning pledged delegates as a result of elections, not these say-or-do-anything-to-win tactics that could undermine Democrats’ ability to win the general election.”
Many top Democrats, among them House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, have said superdelegates should follow the will of voters expressed through primaries and caucuses, and not “trump” those votes. The Obama campaign also circulated a Bloomberg story from Friday quoting Pelosi, who said Michigan and Florida should not decide the race since they broke party rules.
Though he predicted the superdelegates basically would turn the election, Ickes in the same phone call Saturday said he objected to the term because it implied they had too much power. He said from here out, he’s calling them “automatic delegates”. “The Fourth Estate created the term ’superdelegate,’” Ickes said, though Democrats have used the term widely in the roiling debate of their allegiances and responsibilities in the increasingly competitive and high-stakes battle for the Democratic presidential nomination. “They don’t have super powers,” Ickes said. “It’s one person, one vote. They have no more power than any other delegate. But they do have a sense of what it takes to get elected.”
Superdelegates consist of members of Congress, former presidents, governors and other party officials and insiders. The class was created in 1982 to take power away from activists and hand it to party insiders. Rarely have their votes decided the nominee. “They are closely in touch with the issues and ideas of the jurisdiction they represent and they are as much or more in touch than delegates won or recruited by presidential campaigns,” Ickes said.
Obama currently leads Clinton by 136 in pledged delegates but trails by 95 in superdelegates, according to calculations given by both campaigns. “Hillary will end up with more automatic delegates than Obama,” Ickes said, and the number of elections won by Obama is “irrelevant to the obligations of automatic delegates.” That support, however, could be eroding for Clinton, as recent reports have said some black superdelegate supporters are reconsidering their endorsements since their districts voted mostly for Obama.
FOX News’ Major Garrett and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Comment by Vern Cornelius
February 17th, 2008 at 1:07 am
The feeling among Democrats is nearly palpable, that if the Clintons win the nomination, the Republicans will win the General Election. The Democratic Party could barely survive surrendering another four years to a Republican Presidency. Nonetheless, it appears that we may be taunting a near self-destruction of the Party. The Clintons seem not to be capable of seeing beyond their own self-interest. During the last few years we witnessed the Democratic Party rebuilding itself from the ground up, and the power hungry Democratic leaders hanging on to their failed methods of the last quarter of the twentieth century.
Bring ethical behavior back to the Democratic Party. Every concerned Democrat in this Country should write a letter or an email to the Democrat Party and the Democratic National Committee demanding that so-called super-delegates be required to vote according to the will of the voters in their Districts, and not be permitted to “trump” the process. Additionally, the Party should, as urged by Speaker Pelosi, adhere to its decision to disallow seating of the Florida and Michigan delegates.
Good evening, all.
CNN is reporting that Obama is meeting with Elizabeth and John Edwards in North Carolina today.
* * * *
Posted by Cyn_NY on February 17, 2008 at 05:50 PM
cyn,
I'm glad Senator Clinton thinks her husband's failed economic capitulation to the Republicans that resulted in the sell out of our middle class jobs and standard of living was a bad idea.
But she publicly supported it at the time according to an column by David Sirota:
Hillary Clinton Pretends She Never Praised NAFTA Posted February 14, 2008...The Huffington Post has followed along with a laugh-out-loud piece in which the chief architects of NAFTA (many who are now wealthy corporate lawyers and lobbyists) are now saying, no, no, Hillary Clinton was really opposed to it. These are the same people, of course, who are looking for jobs in the Hillary Clinton White House.
What a total joke, really. This campaign clearly thinks we are all just a bunch of fools.
Hillary Clinton has made statements unequivocally trumpeting NAFTA as the greatest thing since sliced bread. The Buffalo News reports that back in 1998, Clinton attended the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and thanked praised corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA." Yes, you read that right: She traveled to Davos to thank corporate interests for their campaign ramming NAFTA through Congress.
On November 1, 1996, United Press International reported that on a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region."
The Associated Press followed up the next day noting that Hillary Clinton touted the fact that "the president would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement."
In her memoir, Clinton wrote, "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for president in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA."
Yes, we are all expected to just forget that, so that Hillary Clinton's campaign can manufacture supposed "outrage" that anyone would say she supported NAFTA - all at a time her chief strategist, Mark Penn, simultaneously heads a firm that is right now pushing to expand NAFTA into South America.
What a total insult to America's intelligence.
www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/hillary-clinton-pretends-_b_86747.html
some good music----cause this primary stuff is getting a bit old...
SandyH..
The Lack of Credibility issue is one of the major reasons most Americans will not support the Clintons again. I fought hard to convince others that Nafta was a serious mistake that Democrats should not be supporting, but the Clintons supported it, and they were golden. I can not support a leader who is so totally without an ethical footing.
Obama lies/dishonest attacks...I see the gang's all here tonight in force.
Why can't your candidate defend her own positions? Why do you think people question her judgment when her only stratgey seems to be sending out supporters that portray her as a victim?
Her past is an open book. She has a paper trail. She will be asked to explain her words and actions on a variety of issues just like anyone else who runs for office.
Nobody has to intimate that she is covering her tracks. There is a public record.
She can't have it both ways. Either she stands by her past statements on issues or she reputiates them if she thinks they are hurting her campaign.
She can't say she's being held hostage by the very experience she claims makes her the best candidates from her years inside the Clinton administration.
This pre-occupation with imagined threats is just the sort of paranoid behavior we have come to expect from the Bush administration. It speaks of desperation.
If you want to praise your candidate with press releases like DKA provides us with...fine. But quit saying anyone is picking on her. She's a seasoned political player.
I've never seen a stronger woman candidate.
Clinton, less states, less pledged delegates, less popular vote.
She sure deserves the nomination at this point.
Just say NO to BUSHCLINTONISM.
Posted by VernC on February 17, 2008 at 06:52 PM
I'm not too sure the American people will not support the Clintons if that is the alternative. I plan to do just that if Obama loses the nomination.
However, I agree with you that the Clintons never seem to look farther than their own best interests and fail to see themselves the way many other do in this country.
They underestimate the negatives and take for granted the positives that Bill used to muster. He's not running. His wife is a far less attractive public figure and speaker. And he's not showing his best side or turning on the charm of late either.
Times change, people change, interests and worries change. You have to be conscious of what's going on around you and adapt...not expect everyone else to adapt to you.
bbl.
So let's talk about electability, which is what we all want, a Democratic President. Here are all the latest polls in heads up matchups between Sen. Obama VS McCain and Senator Clinton vs McCain.
General Election: McCain vs. Clinton
Polling Data
Poll Date Sample McCain (R) Clinton (D) Und Spread
RCP Average 01/29 - 02/10 - 47.0 45.3 6.1 McCain +1.7
USA Today/Gallup 02/08 - 02/10 706 LV 49 48 3 McCain +1.0
AP-Ipsos 02/07 - 02/10 1,029 A 45 46 7 Clinton +1.0
Time 02/01 - 02/04 958 LV 46 46 8 Tie
CNN 02/01 - 02/03 974 RV 47 50 3 Clinton +3.0
Cook/RT Strategies 01/31 - 02/02 855 RV 45 41 10 McCain +4.0
ABC/Wash Post 01/30 - 02/01 1249 A 49 46 2 McCain +3.0
FOX News 01/30 - 01/31 900 RV 45 44 10 McCain +1.0
NPR 01/29 - 01/31 1000 LV 48 45 3 McCain +3.0
Rasmussen (Sun) 4 Day Tracking 1700 LV 49 42 9 McCain +7.0
See All General Election: McCain vs. Clinton Polling Data
OK so Senator Clinton is losing to McCain in 8 of the 10 polls and tied in one. Her widest margin of victory shows 3 points, while her biggest loss comes by 7 points.
Now for Senator Obama VS. McCain
General Election: McCain vs. Obama
Polling Data
Poll Date Sample McCain (R) Obama (D) Und Spread
RCP Average 01/29 - 02/10 - 44.1 47.7 6.7 Obama +3.6
USA Today/Gallup 02/08 - 02/10 706 LV 46 50 4 Obama +4.0
AP-Ipsos 02/07 - 02/10 1,029 A 42 48 8 Obama +6.0
Time 02/01 - 02/04 958 LV 41 48 6 Obama +7.0
CNN 02/01 - 02/03 974 RV 44 52 4 Obama +8.0
Cook/RT Strategies 01/31 - 02/02 855 RV 43 45 9 Obama +2.0
ABC/Wash Post 01/30 - 02/01 1249 A 46 49 3 Obama +3.0
FOX News 01/30 - 01/31 900 RV 43 44 13 Obama +1.0
NPR 01/29 - 01/31 1000 LV 48 47 3 McCain +1.0
Rasmussen (Sun) 4 Day Tracking 1700 LV 44 46 10 Obama +2.0
See All General Election: McCain vs. Obama Polling Data
So what I see here is Senator Obama WINS 9 out of 10 of these with as big a win as 8 points. I see McCain winning 1 with a 1 pt. lead.
So do you want the candidate who WINS in 9 out of 10 polls, and is only down by 1 pt. in the other. OR do you want the candidate who LOSES 8 of 10 and ties in one other? Just a ?
Times change, people change, interests and worries change. You have to be conscious of what's going on around you and adapt...not expect everyone else to adapt to you.
Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 07:19 PM
As always, eloquently said. Thank you.
Wisconsin ForumForums and message boards for Wisconsin. Show your support for Hillary:
http://www.topix.com/forum/state/wi
WHY do you always have to find something to argue with me about? I have been leaving you alone, just do the same, ok?
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 07:18 PM
Pam,
Leave you alone? That's the biggest crock of shist! My original comment was not made to you.
It was you that felt compelled to suggest, my comment about Ned Lamont, was not true. When it was the absolute truth.
It was you that jumped into a debate that I was having, basically callling me a liar!
Now when I respond, showing "in your own words", the hypocracy of YOUR statement, you ask me to leave you alone.
That's real phuking nerve.
You should stick to putting up the opinions of others, you do that very well.
That's the view of anyone that just read your crap,
Steve
More information on NAFTA:
Associated Press: Obama said the United States should ‘pursue deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement.' "Obama said the United State should continue to work with the World Trade Organization and pursue deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement." [AP, 9/8/04]Decatur Herald & Review: 'Obama said the United States benefits enormously from exports under the WTO and NAFTA.' "While some people believe NAFTA has been good for U.S. farmers, the trade results could have been better, Keyes said. NAFTA negotiators said the United States might lose manufacturing jobs but would become a service economy, but now those service jobs also are being exported, he said. Obama said the United States benefits enormously from exports under the WTO and NAFTA. He said, at the same time, there must be recognition that the global economy has shifted, and the United States is no longer the dominant economy. 'We have competition in world trade,' Obama said. 'When China devalues its currency 40 percent, we need to bring a complaint before the WTO just as other nations complain about us. If we are to be competitive over the long term, we need free trade but also fair trade." [Decatur Herald & Review, 9/9/04]
Posted by Illini on February 17, 2008 at 07:07 PM
What are you talking about?
If the Republicans raise race issues in the general campaign, it will hurt them even more than it did the Clintons. It might do permanent damage to their party.
Racist attitudes are no longer tolerated by Independents and moderates in this country. I find it odd that you find doing so would be an advantage for the Republicans.
First you come in here saying you are supportng Clinton but now you are saying that's just what the Republicans wanted you to do as a Democrat and it will backfire on us?
I think you are a one really confused Reagan Democrat who doesn't know where you belong any longer now that you've finally figured out that you were played as a fool by the GOP. If you have problems with Obama being black...well, he's only half black.
Live with it for criminy sakes.
We can't be certan that Hillary doesn't have people of color in her background either. After all, Obama recently found out that he's a distant cousin of Cheney.
On second thought, I'm saying Good Night. This place tries one's soul these days.
Should Obama steal the nomination from Hillary his polls will go way down come closer to the fall when he would have to face McCain and the free ride and party the media has been giving him is over. National Security alone will do Obama in just like it did in 2002 and 2004 but the GOP attack machine can't do it to Hillary because she is strong, tested, and experienced. GOP would also be all over Obama with the flip flops of calling for missile strikes against Iran in 2004 and today his position is completely different.
Voters had better look at the big picture otherwise Democrats are going to lose the national election again if they go with Obama. Quite a few of us (myself included won't support Obama over Hillary).
Posted by GiG on February 17, 2008 at 07:29 PM
GiG,
The thing that troubles me is that Senator Clinton seems to be having a hard time standing up to the public scrutiny being brought forth by the young and "inexperienced" Obama people.
That crafy old bird McCain has been playing this game for forty years. He's not going to be any easier on her. And he has Ari Fleischer out there building the biggest Swiftboat operation since Julius Caeasar smeared his opposition.
They keep on saying that hey, the tried and true Clinton team, can withstand the coming onslaught better than the unprovened Obama. Their actions indicate the opposite.
Good night, everyone.
Is this the Democratic Party blog or the Clinton lie machine. The Clintons have screwed everyone once and they'll do it again. Look at the lies they are mailing out in Wisconsin about health care. The Wall Street Journal has called Hillary's health care plan legalized extortion calling it TonySopranoCare. Now we learn from the NYT that the Clintons stole votes in Brooklyn and New York. And today Bill slapped someone he didn't like at a rally. These Clintons are destroying our Party for their own benefit. They are certifiable toxic narcissists.
Should Obama steal the nomination from Hillary
I just don't get this entitlement thing. Clinton lost the very first contest in Iowa. She doesn't deserve to win any more than Obama. The one with the most delegates will be the nominee.
If you want to get into a argument about the tactics that will be used to do that, be careful. It can be played both ways.
It doesn't matter which one of our candidates is the nominee. We are going to win in November. This is not a personal battle for me.
But it is personal for me as an American. I refuse to accept a third Bush term...and so will the rest of the electorate who aren't that tight 30% of Republican die hards.
Obama is destroying the democratic party with scandals. whitehouse (dot) com has the latest. The republicans are already building their swiftboat attack machine on this one.
I think the fact that George Bush has all but endorsed Hillary Clinton says it all.
Posted by Illini on February 17, 2008 at 08:02 PM
If race is still that much of an issue than the country needs to face it squarely. We as the Democratic Party are not going to retreat on this now. We must stand for something. We can no longer continue this Centralist tightrope act.
America is at another one of those crossroads we always seem to come to in our history. There is going to be either a black or a woman as president next January. Our country needs to get over this pre-occupation with family values and speak to human values again.
I really have to finish dinner. Someone please tell the rest of the forum that there is a new evening open thread.
Grow up, will you?
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 07:40 PM
Pam,
I thought you wanted to be left alone! I guess not. So, here's what Sandy said, TO ME!
"No one there held the DNC responsible. They licked their wounds and are now planning for a big Democratic victory in November and the final defeat of Lieberman in 2012."
I responded that Ned Lamont would probably disagree.
It's an honest statement, that is backed up, by the DNC's failure to give him the money he asked for.
Ned Lamont said as much to Tim Russert. This isn't in question. Even though most of us don't live in CT. The race between Lamont and Lieberman was national news. Go ahead, try and tell all these good Democrats it's not. They all know it's true.
However, Sandy's comment and mine, were concerning the DNC. And no matter how you spin it. It's true.
Next time you decide to jump in and suggest, I'm lying about something. You better come better prepared than this.
Next time you decide to jump in and suggest, I'm a liar, and then say, "leave me alone". I will again point our your hypocracy.
You don't have to like it, just deal with it!
You once said you intended to skip over my comments. I suggest you listen to yourself, or I'll continue to point out your High Faluting Bullshit.
Steve
As far as the "Grow Up" comment.
Tom Robbins said, "When they tell you to Shut Up! They're really telling you to Stop Talking. "When they tell you to Grow Up they're really telling you to Stop Growing.
Reach a nice level plateau and stay there, mature. Immaturity is a sign of growing up, and growing up is a sign of being alive, and alive is a dying art".
"S"
Posted by Growingold on February 17, 2008 at 07:30 PM
Justin, strangely enough some people grow old sweetly, and I guess some happen to grow fangs.
Your old post of Pam's is creeping me out.
peace and freedom to speak,
Every concerned Democrat in this Country should write a letter or an email to the Democrat Party and the Democratic National Committee demanding that so-called super-delegates be required to vote according to the will of the voters in their Districts, and not be permitted to “trump” the process. Additionally, the Party should, as urged by Speaker Pelosi, adhere to its decision to disallow seating of the Florida and Michigan delegates.
Posted by VernC on February 17, 2008 at 06:30 PM
~~~~~~~~~~
Vern
You can't have it both ways. Either follow the rules or "make changes in mid stream".
#1...Follow the rules: a. Do not seat MI and FL delegates. b. Allow "super" delegates to vote for who they determine is best for the party. Nevermind who their respective regions voted for. That's the job of the 'regular' delegates.
The "automatic" delegates are independent and are a safeguard against high-jacking of the primary by renegade operatives be they Dems, Reps or Indies. Everybody knew why the super/autos were added to the process (in the '80s?) before the season began and candidates planned their campaign with that in mind. To all of a sudden say the supautos have to vote the same as their respective districts is CHANGING THE RULES IN MID STREAM!
#2...Break the rules: a. Seat the MI and FL delagates.
b. Require the supautos to vote according to the wishes of their district voters.
********FOLLOW BOTH RULES or CHANGE BOTH RULES******* THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD WRITE TO THEIR CONGRESSIONAL REPS
Tom,
I wonder how you'd react to someone suggested that you're lying.
I don't need Pam, who say's she wants to be left alone, to challenge my credibility. Especially, over a comment as innocent as "I don't think Ned Lamont would agree".
She came after me and what I hold most important. My crediability. Why, she got it in for me, I can't tell you. But she's being doing it to me, since I got here.
I've tried to be nice and mend fences, by reading the articles she posts, and adding positive comment.
Seem to me, she brought this on herself.
Steve
Steve,
Don't you think the Dems all across the nation would have done it for "them" if we could?
Look what it has cost us?
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 07:48 PM
Serenity,
I was talking about fixing the Primary Calendar. That's the problem, and look what it has cost us?
Are we going to continue to give Independants in New Hampshire a bigger voice in selecting our nominee, then Democrats in Florida and California?
That's the problem I'm talking about fixing.
Steve
Posted by Growingold on February 17, 2008 at 08:15 PM
www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/hillary-clinton-pretends-_b_86747.html
Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 06:37 PM
~~~~~~~~
SandyH
If Hillary can't claim her time as first lady as experience then you can't use anything she did or said while SHE WAS NOT IN ELECTED OFFICE.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
and
"...sending out supporters that portray her as a victim?"
~~~~~~~~~
Proof please, that Hillary is "sending supporters out". I can guarantee that nobody sent me out to say anything. I am voicing my opinion based on what I have seen, heard and experienced over many years, all wrapped up in a bit of common sense.
Posted by TomN on February 17, 2008 at 08:32 PM
Tom,
Don't be creeped out. I just googled "ned lamont", & "wants money". And her comment came up. It's not like I'm saving stuff, from before I even got here.
Steve
Correction RE:
"FOLLOW BOTH RULES or CHANGE BOTH RULES******* THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD WRITE TO THEIR CONGRESSIONAL REPS"
Posted by hoipolloi on February 17, 2008 at 08:33 PM
.........
Make that: "That's what everyone should write to the Dem Party and the DNC."
This is a DNC blog and it is only fair for Clinton supporters to rebuttal Obama supporters and vice verse..
The Clinton 90's brought economic prosperity and new wealth to the Americans (tech boom even with the bust it uplifted tech sector etc.)There was world peace also the rest of the world liked America and therefore they were good years all around.
This year after 7 Bush years, prevailing wind is towards democrats and both Obama and Clinton want to get the nomination because they both know they have a better chance of winning this election. let's not forget every politician is ambitious, that's OK as it is the name of the game, but we also need someone who will take us towards economic growth and stability and create new jobs...
So why is that 2 brothers can run for President (Kennedy's) Father and son (Bush) Presidents, husband and wife senators(Dole's) but when husband and wife (Clinton's) have to draw so much barrage over that they are greedy etc.
so unless someone gets to 2025 delegates, let the race continue...
Hillary Clinton- Making Our Dreams
Come True- Wisconsin
Let's go Wisconsin, Ohio, Texas, & Penn State!
Check out the short video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HxtN0u23Tdc
I came across this site during the summer of 2004, and have met many wonderful people, I suppose I was lucky to stumble on to the blog when Kerry/Edwards was already the decided ticket. The people I've met here, many of whom have moved on over the years, have made a profound impact on my life. I've always cherished the lively conversations, and the disagreements.
Now I see people turning on each other, not respecting the opposite view of their fellow democrats. This is sad, just plain sad. Is it because you don't want to unite and would prefer to have another 4, 8, 12 years to bitch about an administration that is out of control. Will you miss the despair, the heartache?
This blog had (and still has) a wonderful bunch of Democrats who have hurt, laughed and cried toghether for a very long time. Remember 2006? It's time to start looking at the future, a brighter one than it has been in a very long time.
I may be an Obama supporter, but most importantley, I am a Democrat who will vote for a Democratic President in November.
Democrats '08
The Subprime Crisis and Black America
King's Dream Foreclosed
By CHRISTINA KASICA
Owning a home is the essence of the American dream. It represents economic achievement and security. The dream holds true across races, ethnicities, and genders. But the implementation does not.
****
The resulting human cost is less often mentioned. Yet, the targeting of people of color and poor people as the best candidates to sign up for one of these loans is emerging as an indisputable and reprehensible fact. In the hands of the mortgage lending industry, sub-prime loans became predatory loans--a faulty product that was ruthlessly hawked even though financial institutions were aware of its defects. Even a surface check of the demographics shows that, in city after city, a solid majority of sub-prime loan recipients were people of color.
Hungry for new and different product, the financial services industry added features to sub-prime loans--exploding adjustable rates, balloon payments, penalties for early re-payment--that hobbled their recipients financially and made it unlikely that they would be able, after a brief honeymoon period, to repay the loans at all.
A deeper look into the crisis reveals that the sub-prime lending debacle has caused the greatest loss of wealth to people of color in modern US history. The estimate is that, so far, blacks have lost between $72-83 billion; Latinos, $75-98 billion.
www.counterpunch.org/kasica02132008.html
******
This is just the icing on the cake of conservative elite corruption. Targeting lower income people for loans that were known to be deceitful and risky is going to have a backlash this election. Damn fine opportunity to hang this mess on the conservative control and oversight of the unbalanced financial system that were scamming them. What with Greenspan and Junior encouraging them for years to buy into the system, with variable loans, etc.
Once again, Florida is enroute to prove that we are undemocratic. Not only did this lead to 8 years of Bush, once again we will cheat the people out of Democracy. Is the Democratic party really democratic or is it just a different establishment??????? If Hillary continues with her less than democratic thirst for power, it will be time for Floridians to turn to either the Republican party or an independent. Sign up to enlist Bloomberg and Nader. So if we are cheated we will have options. Think Floridians.
interesting take on obama...seems according to this guy he is in fact another dlc candidate:
Amigos Latinos en Texas y el resto del pais, Despiertense y apoyen al cambio de verdad. Si Se Puede. Obama es una persona que verdaderamente va a sacar al pais del estado en el que esta. Les pido que no se dejen engañar por la mentiras de Clinton. Obama es el Presidente que necesitamos. Arriba latinos Unidos por el cambio real. Obama 2008. Si Se puede.
You know this superdelagate thing has been going on for 30 years and 20 years ago they revamped it...and now all of a sudden they want to change it because a black man is in the race...i didn't hear anyone say change it when it happened in the 80's...if you want to change it wait till after the election...thx.
I live in Florida. My vote in the primary did not count therefore I was disenfranchised along with over 1 million other Floridian Democrats.
Why? Did I change the date of the primary? No.
I had no control over that and no control over the punishment but I do have control over how I wish to register for the next election. If they do not count the votes in Florida, I am afraid I will be re registering as Independent and will take a good look at John McCain. I am ashamed of the party for which I have been a member for 30 years.
Once again, Florida is enroute to prove that we are undemocratic. Not only did this lead to 8 years of Bush, once again we will cheat the people out of Democracy. Is the Democratic party really democratic or is it just a different establishment??????? If Hillary continues with her less than democratic thirst for power, it will be time for Floridians to turn to either the Republican party or an independent. Sign up to enlist Bloomberg and Nader. So if we are cheated we will have options. Think Floridians.
Posted by ThinkFlorida on February 17, 2008 at 09:27 PM
*******************
It's more like Obama's thirst and greed for power. Obama supporters call wanting the vote and delegates for Flordia to count undemocratic because most came out in record numbers for Hillary! Trying to silence the voice of the voters of Flordia is wrong. Had those votes gone the other way for Obama Sharpton and Jackson would be protesting demanding they count all the votes. If Obama cheats and steals the nomination from Hillary there are other choices because quite a few voters (myself included) won't support Obama. Republicans would love for Obama to get the nomination because he would be such an easy target for the GOP. Are you sure you're not really a Republican?
GIG,
The sheer scope of the monster is daunting. Winning in 08 means a massive workload and responsibility, and I am in awe of anyone who bravely would take the job on, what with the mandate for change.
And, thank goodness for yourself.
"Nuestra Amiga" señala que Hillary es la candidata que entiende tanto a la comunidad latina, como los problemas a los que se enfrenta –falta de cuidado de salud, la crisis económica, y los altos costos de vida.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/video/116.aspx
voters (myself included) won't support Obama. Republicans would love for Obama to get the nomination because he would be such an easy target for the GOP. Are you sure you're not really a Republican?
Posted by DemocratKickingAss on February 17, 2008 at 09:47 PM
I suppose a lot of people have to ask that of themselves, won't they?
Good evening Dems,
I was thinking about the primary earlier. I know that one of the contentious points is whether or not to allow independents to vote in the Democratic primary. I think it is a good idea and helps the Democrats choose the most electable candidate. I have to say, this year, Obama has turned out an incredible number of independents. Obama and Clinton are both great candidates, but it is so encouraging to see people who were previously ambivalent about politics turn out for a candidate. What do you think? Is it a good for the Democratic party?
*This is in no way disparaging Clinton, just pointing out info about Obama
The sheer scope of the monster is daunting. Winning in 08 means a massive workload and responsibility, and I am in awe of anyone who bravely would take the job on, what with the mandate for change.
Posted by TomN on February 17, 2008 at 09:49 PM
I agree. And as always, it's good to read you.
I suppose a lot of people have to ask that of themselves, won't they?
Posted by GiG on February 17, 2008 at 09:59 PM
*****************
I'm very serious, if Obama gets the nomination over Hillary I will not support him. I will also change my voter registration to Independent. There's no way I would vote for Obama now. I'm not the only one who feels this way. The question is were any lessons learned from the 2002 and 2004 elections? Time will tell.
The only reason Obama has done ok now is because most of the media has been bias in his favor but should he be the nomination watch and see what happens when the gloves come off and the media love fest is over. The GOP attack machine will go full force on Obama. Hillary has already faced the GOP attack machine and not only has she survived but she has come out stronger.
Posted by DemocratKickingAss on February 17, 2008 at 09:47 PM
I have to say that the primary turnout suggests otherwise. I have to say that I believe people would rather see a Democrat that they didn't vote for in the primary than a Republican. You have to see the bigger picture, which puts Clinton and Obama on the same side and McCain on the other.
"WHY HILLARY CLINTON WILL RESTORE AMERICA'S STANDING IN THE WORLD"
In an article posted on The Huffington Post, Lissa Muscatine and Melanne Verveer make the case for why Hillary is the best candidate to restore America's standing and authority:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lissa-muscatine-and-melanne-verveer/why-hillary-clinton-will-_b_83037.html
Posted by margotb822 on February 17, 2008 at 10:06 PM
All I can add is that my stepdad, a hardcore retired Military Republican and my brother in law, ex military and one that usually does not get involved in politics, both support Obama (and I'm innocent, I had nothing to do with it, I promise).. and neither one of them are part of the so called youth or minority vote.
ok, really out of here... g'nite folks.
If Obama got the nomination I simply would stay home this November and not vote all unless a good Independent jumped into the race.
Posted by gregg on February 17, 2008 at 09:28 PM
------------
that was interesting. I read it carefully
for me: i am also going to be really interested in what John Edwards has to say eventually.
I believe he is as is most polititions, but I also beleive he speaks more truth to power than the rest.
We have to choose one
Both Hilary and Barack will have a huge weight to carry,
if they betray us---it is such a direct hit to a huge part of the population that are counting on them making new roads for we the minorities.
I'm very serious, if Obama gets the nomination over Hillary I will not support him. I will also change my voter registration to Independent
Posted by DemocratKickingAss on February 17, 2008 at 10:07 PM
This is truly sad, and I'm really dissappointed to hear this from you.
Democrats '08
If they do not count the votes in Florida, I am afraid I will be re registering as Independent and will take a good look at John McCain. I am ashamed of the party for which I have been a member for 30 years.
Posted by DavidinFlorida on February 17, 2008 at 09:46 PM
---------------
BYE
not worth a response would be more proud of his republican party and what they have done.
Hillary has already faced the GOP attack machine and not only has she survived but she has come out stronger.
Posted by DemocratKickingAss on February 17, 2008 at 10:10 PM
I love Hillary and I will gladly vote for her. However, many casual observers will believe the GOP lies that have been told in the past. I know that Democrats support Hillary, but I wouldn't be so sure about American in general. Also, those past attacks have earned her many haters, and people who won't vote for her regardless of politics. The GOP will play up the idea of Bill being in the WH "with nothing to do," and the sheeple will eat it up.
But, don't think that we can win with just the candidate. The Democrats will need to expose McCain for what he is, a spineless, flip-flopping warmongerer. This is going to be a dirty election, on both sides.
Posted by GiG on February 17, 2008 at 10:14 PM
I know many military members who voted Republican in the past that plan on voting for Obama this year. It's a good sign, people seeing the Democratic light and a candidate they like. Let's hope they do the same for Congress!
Let's hope they do the same for Congress!
Posted by margotb822 on February 17, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Oh I know. We actually have a great guy about to give Chambliss a run for his seat for US Senate in Georgia. Josh Lanier is a real statesman and I hope to get them excited about him :)
davidinflorida, I have been trying to explain to these idiots that my vote in florida will count or I like you and many more floridians will leave the party. I have been a democrat since the 70's and I will change to an independant if my vote is not counted.
I hope to get them excited about him :)
Posted by GiG on February 17, 2008 at 10:33 PM
I've always wanted to say this in context: Good night and good luck!
For those of you that believe in listening to your military people (when they are allowed to speak),
the VAST majority are supporting either Ron Paul or Barack Obama.
OH MY G---Laughing my A off
Fox noise just brought out Jerry Springer as a pundit------Carl Rove and Jerry Springer
they obviously can't get anybody with any integrity to show their face with them
"If Hillary continues with her less than democratic thirst for power, it will be time for Floridians to turn to either the Republican party or an independent."
~~~~
ThinkFlorida 9:27
"PARTY"......Therein lies the problem. The Parties are not democratic. They are powerful and separate from our government. They are free to make up rules at their pleasure. Your right to "democratically" elect a candidate does not kick in until after the primaries and/or when the candidates have already been named.
My point is, Hillary is and has been playing by the Democrat Party "rules" and the rules were not "democratically" made. (I know I sure didn't get to vote on any of them.) If you don't like them, see the Party. What's your proof that Hillary has any more "thirst for power" than does Barack, John M. or Mike? If Obama supporters want to potty-mouth other Dem candidates, then they had better be ready to hear the same about Obama.
Posted by davidpga on February 17, 2008 at 10:33 PM
--------------
being an independant is not such a bad way to go
I have been an independant 35+ years of my adult life (well, I was even as a kid, but that didn't count and wasn't appreciated :-))
I thought you were ignoring me High? You did indirectly call me a troll. I am not but I am mad.
I joined the Democratic Party in 2000
For the time that I could remember someone scared the ***** out of me, BUSH. and I was hoping I could better lend my energy, support and activism to a group that was fighting him and his.
FOR THE FOURTH TIME IN MY LIFE I WILL VOTE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION FOR EVERY SINGLE “D” ON THE LIST.
If there is an incumbent “D” on the list that I feel has betrayed me (young or old), I will vote for their inexperience opponent that has a “D” next to their name, if they have no “D” opponents, I will vote for them anyway.
AND THAT IS THE WAY IT IS
I'm very serious, if Obama gets the nomination over Hillary I will not support him. I will also change my voter registration to Independent
Posted by DemocratKickingAss on February 17, 2008 at 10:07 PM
This is truly sad, and I'm really dissappointed to hear this from you.
Democrats '08
Posted by GiG on February 17, 2008 at 10:19 PM
Well, you can thank the Obama camp for me feeling this way as they have divided Democrats. A good example is when Mrs. Obama was asked if Hillary wins the nomination if she would support her and she said that she didn't know and would have to think about it. If you don't believe it check out this link and see for yourself:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/4/124123/6787
Not only that I don't like all of the discrimination in general that has been going on against Hillary.
I have never been a great TEAM player, therefore the independant choice. I like thinking for myself, and don't follow along well when the majority has not been able to convince me I am wrong.
In this case, it changed 7 years ago. I had an unbelievable viseral reaction when Bush started campaigning. I was scared.
I am a believer in UNIONS and joining with groups that are fighting the good fight, and have done this through the years, most notably Vietnam.
The Dem. party certainly has its warts, but in this day, at this time, I WILL DO ANYTHING I CAN TO HELP THEM OVERCOME THE KNOWN ELEMENT that has destroyed 30 years of working for a better environment for this country.
If the DEM candidate, once elected, proves to betray me-----I will turn so fast their head will spin. :-)
I also heard something in the news where Al Sharpton plans to protest if the votes end up getting counted in Florida/Michigan. We all know the majority of those votes were for Hillary. Gee, I wonder what Mr. Sharpton would do if it was the other way around and the majority of those votes were for Obama instead? I use to like and respect Al Sharpton but now my opinion of him has changed after hearing about this. Latinos make up a larger minority and will have a larger say in this election.
http://www.latinosforclinton.com
Do you want to see a Democratic victory in 2008? Well if that's the case then please take a moment, put any person feelings to the side, stop, use your head and think what it will take to win when faced with the Republican in November so that there won't be a repeat of the 2004 election. Watch this short video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmsRdoGaJVg&feature=related
I'm glad you said that High
"If the DEM candidate, once elected, proves to betray me-----I will turn so fast their head will spin. :-)"
Thats exactly how Floridians feel now. BETRAYED.
And you said it correctly "I will turn so fast their head will spin"
As I said before Obama can become the Great Uniter by pressuring the DNC to seat Fl/Mi delegates. To not do so will destroy any chance he may have to get elected, Hillary cant do it and Howard Dean wont do it. If not then the DNC will suffer, the nation will suffer (for at least 4 more years) and many of these "betrayed voters" ill never return to the DNC.
davidpga
THEN AGAIN --------- REPLACE THE ONES WHO BETRAYED YOU
I said I would "turn" on the ONE WHO BETRAYS ME.
I was part of electing them and I will take responsibility and be part of replacing them.
Before they can do it again and again like has happened in your state.
I will not run away to join the party that destroyed this country in the first place FOR GOD'S SAKE an IDOT i am not
----------
In joining and agreeing to be part of a group, you agree to do whatever is best for the group, as determined by the majority. You get a “payoff” for this, or you would not join.
There are always those in a group that want everyone else to do the hard work and then complain when it wasn’t done the way they wanted it.
I call them baggage. Most in a group want to hold onto those because someday they may come around.
I do not. I encourage them to find a group better suited to their wants.
I believe it is better for the whole,
if time and energy isn’t spent trying to sooth their feelings, when it could be spent forwarding a worthy cause.
If a person can’t sacrifice his own wants, when his wants are divisive and hinders the group reaching their goals, then that person should not be part of that group.
I believe that this is a crisis time in the life of this country and it’s citizens, which include my grandchildren.
Just like the Vietnam war was and would still be going on if it weren’t for we free thinkers who joined a group. A very disparaged group.
Otherwise, I would be probably be fighting for some obscure candidates rights to get to be in the debates.
So, I encourage you, sacrifice your single vote in the primaries, for the good of the prize.
Prize = potential of saving our country
davidpga
I guess the way you think
THE rest of us who were betrayed in 2000 should blame you because FLORIDA ELECTED BUSH
We can debate this issue all night but nothing really changes. Florida and Michigan voters are at the mercy of their legislature. Mine happens to be Republican. I didnt vote for them and I had nothing to do with their decision. I cannot change what has happened nor change my legislature (God knows I've tried). The only person that can fix this happens to be Obama. So is he the one I should "turn on". He did not ask to be in this position but he is trying to become the leader of the DNC and eventually the Nation. Lets see him lead! I would be glad to sacrifice my primary vote for the good of the nation but reality is that there are too many voters in these two states that arent. We have to live with realities and not ideals.
If it makes you feel better you can blame me High. Lotta good it will do you but go ahead I dont mind.
You elected/approved your State Democratic Representative. DEMOCRATS!
Those from the democratic party that you depend on to protect your vote, because you cannot fight the STATE LEGISLATURE, especially in Florida.
It is supposedly one of the reasons you joined the party. You need help making sure your vote counts and you hire representative to do that.
Instead they betrayed you and moved the your date to vote on the dEMOCRATIC CALENDAR UP.
this has nothing to do with the republican legislature.
The republicans have nothing to do with who you need to replace.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBAMA
FOR GOD SAKE IT GOES OBVIOUSLY BACK TO 2000 WHEN YOU WERE DISNINFRANCHISED THEN
YOU (the dems in Florida) ELECTED/APPOINTED THEM
YOU CAN'T BLAME THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
YOU, THE PEOPLE, DID IT and then didn't undo it
And I still don't get how you would expect Hillary, or Obama, or me to correct this for you.
You, as in you the dems in florida, have to fix your party in your own state.
I don't know what else to say
I am sorry,
I am tired
I am saying incorrect things and badly trying to convey my message
I need to stay off this subject from now on
I am really inept at it
I am sorry you are feeling bad, if that is really the case
I am sure I would feel bad too
Just please don't place blame where it isn't desearved
Outa here to watch the comedy channel and chear up.
Just for your information....
Passage of Florida legislative bill HB 537 has caused 1.7 Million US voters to become disenfranchised. This may have been a manipulation of the legislative process to intentionally influence the outcome of a presidential race. Unless the RNC & DNC policies are changed, this could happen to you some day. The contents of this website will discuss this bill, what happened; and what you can do to try to reverse this situation and prevent it from recurring. Please help us reinstate the voting rights of Florida Democrats. How you can help:
Read our --> Position Summary Section and other details on this website
Visit our --> What To Do Page and follow the suggestions there.
Add your own comments to our --> Sample Letter & mail it to the DNC.
Please keep these facts in mind as you read the contents of this website:
The Florida Democratic primary election ballot had all democratic candidates listed.
Florida Dems have been disenfranchised, through no fault of their own
HB537 was written by a Florida Republican to change Florida's primary date.
A conflict between a state's legislative rights and DNC & RNC rules caused this.
The Florida Democratic Party did NOT change this date.
The Florida legislature has an overwhelming Republican majority.
The state of Florida has a Republican Governor.
The citizens of the state of Florida did NOT vote on this date change.
HB537 was passed in May 2007 & legislatively changed the Florida primary date.
This date was, and still is, unalterable by the Florida Democrats.
Shame on the Democratic National Committee for:
Letting Republicans control our Democratic election process.
Disenfranchising the voters in Florida.
Disregarding their agreement to serve all of the US Democratic voters.
Potentially stifling the Democratic party contribution flow from Florida.
Now ask me If I could have changed anything.
I am sorry
I am tired
I am writing mis-information
I need to give up on this topic to anyone
totally
I seem to be completely in-ept at saying what I mean on this subject.
Unlike a week ago, there is now a lot of good divinitive information out there as to what is really going on and how it happened. I just don't seem to be able to share it in an understandable way.
So go look. there is lots of stuff
The bottom line is please don't blame Hilary or Obama, or whom-ever, when it won't do any good.
Please join in UNITING THIS PARTY FOR THE GOOD OF ALL
I am truely sorry that you feel hurt
I would too
I hope you will feel better if you can just let it play out, and agree to support anyone but a republican, because no matter how much you dislike a democrate---it can't possibly weigh against what the present regime has done to your country.
g-nite
Yama,
I see nothing wrong with what you propose All it takes is for Obama to lead the way, otherwise we are all screwed. Its late here in Florida and I have to work tommorrow,
Good night
I've got a question that I can't seem to find the answer to. When the party decided not to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates, did we reduce the number of delegates necessary for a candidate to win? If so, by how much? If not, why not? I hope we didn't take two populous states off the table but kept the required number of delegates to win the same - it seems like that would just increase the probability that neither candidate will have enough to clinch, which seems counter-intuitive.
While visiting my parents this afternoon, (I take Bella over to see "the Greats") my dad & I were having our as usual political conversation and he asked me why I'm not voting for Clinton.
I told him, "Clinton is DLC. Clinton voted for Iraq & Iran. She's nothing but a female version of McCain. I'm tired of the war and don't want those I love to ever have to leave and fight for oil." Then I placed his sweet great-granddaugher in his lap.
He choked up, but he won't change his vote.
We all have to be true to ourselves.
I will also change my voter registration to Independent. There's no way I would vote for Obama now. I'm not the only one who feels this way. The question is were any lessons learned from the 2002 and 2004 elections? Time will tell.
Posted by DemocratKickingAss on February 17, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Why change your political party? What about the other Federal offices? Local?
Why not just skip that race, or go ahead, vote for McCain.
Wasn't there public testimony before the legislation voted to up MI & FL primary elections? How many hearings were held?
Where was the outrage prior to their getting the shaft?
Its really funny to watch the progressives tear each other apart on the blog,
Posted by druBcM*rD on February 18, 2008 at 01:34 AM
The way I've been reading it, the "progressives" are supporting a DLC candidate, and self proclaimed "moderate democrats", like myself and BobVAHawk, are supporting Obama.
Go figure!?!
Jesse Jackson Jr.
plays the race card (again)
Jesse Jackson Jr. is already one of the most egregious players of the race card with his "she didn't cry for Katrina" comments. But today I found this a quote by him that really shows the kind of racial politics he's playing -- and this time he's targeting black politicians.
by LakersFan
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/14/215120/893
This is what I get for drinking hot tea after 6 p.m....up all night. sigh...
What is greater than God and more evil than the Devil ? What do the the Poor have and the Rich want ? What if you eat it, you will die ?
How can any elected leader de-fund this war?
Get the troops home.
I also have a problem with mandated health care. She'll chip each and every one of us as a tracking system. (not that the immigration issue doesn't run with that neck and neck)
I've already voted, and it wasn't for or against experience....I was true to myself. Head, heart, and soul.
If Clinton gets the nomination, I'll support her in the General Election. I know our Democratic Congress can't do a damn thing until that happens.
With every four steps the Democrats take going forward in Change, they take two steps backward toward the Bush/Clinton years of the status quo.
We must make major Change back to checks and balances of “We the people” control, where the people regain the White House. We must not regress by stamping out those Progressive Liberal movement ,which strives to take the Corporate control out of Washington.
Conservatives basically want a government government fix, where their Patriot Act controls the "We the people" Freedom, much like Red Chinese citizens are controlled.
Some religious Conservatives also want the church to control the whole nation wanting to ban gambling, liquor, evolution, Bingo, and other things like long patriot hair, having people conform to their strict religious believes.
The worst Conservatives have a God of pure profits in Idolatry that contracts overseas companies for child slave workers to do want Americans used to do. They could care less about Terminating the American dream.
Liberal on the other hand tend to fight for human, civil, and civil liberty rights. They oppose the control of our "We the people" homes by Corporate employers. Employers, who ban the activities in the home, like Free Speech writing. They are people like Edwards fighting for "We the people" Freedom and Democracy of Constitutional values over those Royals that use the Presidency with an iron fist using secrecy as a tool to get things done without accounting.
Posted by druBcM*rD on February 18, 2008 at 01:46 AM
Politics and religion, gets them every time. ;\
So, you are/were a Ron Paul supporter? Now who?
With Chelsea Clinton deciding to follow her mothers foot steps, she will be the newest dynamic force in the Democratic Party in the near future. Her young mind is already experienced and being prepped, by surrounding herself with her parents reputation. When she runs, she will be able to use this on her platform.
In her time, she will run for a Governor and/or Senator. "We the people" need to give those same American dreams to our kids coming from our public schools. When she runs with the Clinton name and her chosen married last name, she will make history as the first daughter to come from two Presidents.
Posted by druBcM*rD on February 18, 2008 at 02:04 AM
haha! I never "watchout" for anyone. I even talk to you trolls. ;)
If you notice, there are very few I address directly. I have learned the fine art of using the scrolly thingamajig.
I don't let too much of what goes on here or anywhere else in cyberspace get under my skin, too much real life to contend with.
We'll see if these "newbies" are still around after the Primary Election. I say most are paid campaign staff. One side or the other.
I'm in need of sleep too.
Here's one for those who partake:
Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.Jeremiah 3:22
And for those free thinking spirits:
"Many men owe the grandeur of their lives to their tremendous difficulties."- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Thank goodness it's a Federal Holiday, maybe I can sleep in.
Enjoy your President's Day, everyone.
When the Pope coming to the White House, have the Vatican ban any photo or media op. Have the Democratic Party demand a list of the people Bush wants to have there. Next the Pope needs to talk about Abu Graith, water boarding, torture,Guantanamo, the Iraq War, the death penalty (Executive branch executions in Guantanamo without federal and International court rights), and other issues. Especially if the Bush White House uses the visit to legitimize his legacy.
Can we have the Bush Republicans say that the Pope SAVED him for the History books?
I can see it now, "Pope Bans The Democratic Party" by propping up McCain as the Pope's choice. Photos of the Pope being taken with every Republican right wing Corporate Conservative, except non-Catholic evangelicals.
Tucker Carlson on Obama's church: "[I]t's hard to call that Christianity"
During the "Obameter" segment on the February 7 edition of MSNBC's Tucker, host Tucker Carlson criticized Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), a presumptive candidate for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, for being a member of a church that Carlson claimed "sounds separatist to me" and "contradicts the basic tenets of Christianity," a subject Carlson said he was "actually qualified to discuss."
Full Story:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200702090009
Posted by DemocratKickingAss on February 17, 2008 at 06:27 PM
I see a lot of churches that segregate themselves along racial lines, go all over the South and find Christianity of one race values. So DemocratKickingAss is the Clinton's church segregated by race, class, or any other reason? One thing I bet, you cannot be dressed in poverty to get in.
Well Hillary supporters you sure have sharpened your claws. Wonder why people are getting sick of the Clintons? Maybe it's the same old politics of fear and intimidation. Support her policies, NOT just her name. Why did I not get ONE response when I showed you all how she LOSES to McCain in 8 of 10 polls, while Senator Obama WINS 9 of 10. I thought the goal was to get a Democrat elected President, guess not. And to all of you who say your going to register independent and vote for McCain if he gets the nomination, SHAME ON YOU!!! I hope you're ready to send your child off to war ,not get health care for your family, oh and if you have a daughter enjoy the lack of choice she will have when McCain appoints another Scalia to the Supreme Court. WAAAAAH IF HILLARY LOSES I AM TAKING MY JUMP ROPE AND GOING HOME WAAAAAAAAH.
I am voting Democratic in '08, are you?
Posted by Drunk McBurd at 5:05 AM
Hitting the Ripple again are you McBurd?
Posted by justaguy on February 18, 2008 at 06:55 AM
I was an Edwards supporter and have not made up my mind between Clinton/Obama, but I will be voting for the Democratic nominee in the general election.
Good Morning
So these right wing fools say there is no global warming.
Current temperature - 61 degrees in the middle of winter!
No one can recall a winter as warm as this one.
It appears that Drunk McBurd has staggered and lurched his way outside and has left the house. I hope the door didn't hit him on his way out and that he is not sprawled on the ground where the sanitation crew is going to have to wash him off the grounds, again!
Obama and Hillary teams discuss science
by Chris in Paris · 2/18/2008 05:12:00 AM ET · Link
Discuss this post here: Comments (9) · reddit · FARK ·· Digg It!
Both teams refreshingly discussed science and investment in science. This is yet another reason why either candidate will be a welcome change from the extremist GOP crowd who deny science and learning whenever they can. The McCain and Huckabee teams had "scheduling conflicts." I'm guessing - and this is just a guess - they were wrapped up viewing important videos of Jesus riding in a saddle on the back of a dinosaur or some other "science" documentary rolled out by the religious right. Even just recognizing that dinosaurs existed is progress for them.
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How is that idiotic creationist museum going?
The next unregulated Wall Street sector to crash?
by Chris in Paris · 2/17/2008 03:46:00 PM ET · Link
Discuss this post here: Comments (86) · reddit · FARK ·· Digg It!
It probably is nothing though because this new market is only worth about $45.5 trillion or twice the size of the US stock market. These people are professionals, so surely they've taken precautions, right?
No one knows how troubled the credit swaps market is, because, like the now-distressed market for subprime mortgage securities, it is unregulated. But because swaps have proliferated so rapidly, experts say that a hiccup in this market could set off a chain reaction of losses at financial institutions, making it even harder for borrowers to get loans that grease economic activity.
Monday, February 18, 2008
Over 80 Dead in Afghan Blast
A massive suicide bomb ripped through crowd in Qandahar on Sunday, killing over 80 and wounding a similar number. The Afghan newspaper Rah-i Sulh took a dim view of the public's activities at that site, which included dog racing. It observed that people who went to get a thrill from seeing dogs mangled unexpectedly saw a true and all too human tragedy.
People often say that Iraq was a diversion and that the US should have done the job in Afghanistan better and quickly. As time goes on, you have to begin to question whether Pushtuns in the country's south are ever going to put up with a foreign military occupation of their territory.
posted by Juan Cole @ 2/18/2008 06:35:00 AM 0 comments
==============================================
The violence continues there as well. The Chimp reign has been a complete failure.
Chimp Bush and Shooter Cheney have failed.
McCain has failed.
GOP has failed.
McCain = Bush
PRISTINA, Kosovo — Revelers fired guns, waved red-and-black Albanian flags and set off fireworks over Kosovo Sunday after parliament proclaimed independence in defiance of Serbia and Russia, which condemned the declaration of the world's newest nation.
A decade after a bloody separatist war with Serbian forces that claimed 10,000 lives, lawmakers pronounced the territory the Republic of Kosovo and pledged to make it a "democratic, multiethnic state." Its leaders looked for swift recognition from the U.S. and key European powers _ but also braced for a bitter showdown.
Serbia called the declaration illegal and its ally Russia denounced it, saying it threatened to touch off a new conflict in the Balkans. Russia and Serbia called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, which met later Sunday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/17/defiant-kosovo-celebrates_n_87052.html
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Very interesting ...
Posted by rjsnj on February 18, 2008 at 07:20 AM
This so-called unregulated market is really nothing more than thin air, smoke and mirrors documents. There is no real collateral, it's all bogus. The greedy people who came up with these new versions of the old Ponzi Scheme should go to prison as a lesson to those future bankers and traders to curb their greed.
Questions for the Clinton camp. Did Hillary Clinton agree or did she not agree about the Florida and Michigan delegates BEFORE the primaries? If she thought it was unfair, why didn't she bring that up BEFORE they took place? I know ....she had her fingers crossed right? Every 5 year-old knows that if you cross your fingers that it doesn't really count.
Sort of like when she voted FOR the war. That must be the reason she has never said she made a mistake. She had her fingers crossed. I never saw the pattern before. Agree to something before hand, it not work out the way you think, come out against it.
Morning JohnBoy and rj,
Here it is 26 and clear. The days have been 55.
Overnight on Coast to Coast I was listening to a Jim Marrs who was discussing Remote Viewing. This is a technique used by the CIA to find people. He was asked why they didn't use Remote Viewing to find Bin Laden. His reply was that bush and cheney said NO.
I always knew bush and cheney were war criminals. They were also responsible for the 3,000 deaths in the Twin Towers and noone can tell me otherwise. They worked with bin laden to hit the Twin Towers so bush and cheney could get rich.
And just who is paying for it!
IMPEACH BUSH AND CHINNY!
HONK HONK HONK!
There is no real collateral, it's all bogus.
===================================================
Hi goodfoe,
I agree completely. There are several of these financial derivatives that make no sense at all.
Funny, the British empire collapsed when it turned to finance as it's main product. I think we are on the same course.
IMPEACH BUSH AND CHINNY!
HONK HONK HONK!
===============================================
JE,
I'll give that a honk
HONK HONK HONK
I saw a picture of bush and the king of tanzania holding what appeared to be cocktails. They were toasting each other and chimp had a shit eating grin on his face. Is the POS drunk again. The king of tanzania must be a moron too.
He is running around the Africa giving millions to them for their infrastructure. What about our infrastructure you cheap bastard.
How about the child health care bill. How about student loans. How about rebuilding our infrastructure.
FUCK YOU BUSH AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON.
Good morning Johne,...Months ago I wrote here that McCain was dead. But like Lazarus, he has risen from the grave. He is a tough, smart old campaigner. He will use the earmarks issue (Clinton over 300 million and Obama almost 100 million ) to hurt the Democratic nominee. My fear is that if the Party does not come together after the convention solidly behind whoever the nominee is, we could loose the presidential election. That is why when I see people saying that if their candidate is not the nominee, they are not going to support the nominee, it really concerns me. The Democratic Party may be about to implode and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Iraq’d
By: Nicole Belle @ 6:20 PM - PST
UNICEF has put out a release asking for donations to help Iraq children:
Childhood in Iraq is more precarious than ever. For example:
A large number of children, estimated in the tens of thousands, have lost parents, siblings and other family members to violence
* At least one in five primary school-age children is unable to go to school
* Only 40 per cent of children have regular access to safe drinking water*
* Some 600,000 children are among the 1.2 million Iraqis displaced over the past two years. Most families are still unable to return home.
Living with so much anxiety and loss has taken a heavy toll on children’s psychological and social well-being. Many are anxious and war-weary, unable to sleep or concentrate at school. More and more have turned to the streets and to work, where they are exposed to the worst forms of abuse and exploitation.
If you are able, please consider making a donation. Meanwhile, a development does not bode well for continued claims of the “surge’s” success:
U.S.-allied fighters in a province south of Baghdad have quit working with American troops after two incidents in which U.S. soldiers killed militia members _ the second province where citizen militias have stopped cooperation with the United States.
Citizen brigades in the province of Babil quit work after three members were killed by U.S. forces Friday, a local police spokesman said Saturday.
Another high-profile fatal incident occurred in the same province a little over two weeks ago. Nationwide in that time span, 19 citizen militia members have been killed and 12 wounded by U.S. forces, said the police spokesman, Capt. Muthanna Ahmed.
The action in Babil province follows a strike by citizen brigades members in Diyala province, northeast of Baghdad, that has gone on for more than a week. The citizen militias allege the local police chief leads a death squad and seek his removal, among other demands.
Also this past week, a leader in another powerful citizens militia warned that U.S. and Shiite-dominated Iraq forces should no longer interfere in its work, suggesting coordinated efforts against insurgents might be coming to an end.
================================================
The surge has failed.
Bush/Cheney have failed.
McCain has failed.
McCain = Bush
Glenn Beck: if you’re an ugly woman, you’re probably a progressive as well
By: John Amato @ 3:00 PM - PST
I usually don’t write much about this moron because after I watched him once I wondered how he had a job in radio let alone got a gig on CNN. I know talkies have a lot of time on their hands to kill, but what the heck is he talking about? Has he looked in the mirror lately?
“If you’re a guy, you can get past it. I don’t think you can as an ugly woman.”
“You’ve got a double cross, because if you’re an ugly woman, you’re probably a progressive as well.”
He later added:
“If you believed in God, you’d know that there’s going to be another chance for you. You don’t have to be ugly in heaven. You’re going to be your perfect self, and there will be another perfect somebody waiting for you on the other side.”
================================================
It's time to take this ass Glen Beck off the air. He is polluting the air waves with his crap.
He is running around the Africa giving millions to them for their infrastructure. What about our infrastructure you cheap bastard.
==================================================
JE, Chimp is a total loser and McCain is no different.
McCain = Bush
I wonder what IQ raygun and king bush the first had.
Was it in the single digits.
We must require and IQ test and a sobriety test for all future presidents.
Late Edition: Senator Jack Reed Dispels GOP FISA Lies
By: Logan Murphy @ 11:00 AM - PST
video_wmv Download | Play video_mov Download | Play
Democratic Senator and member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Jack Reed, appeared on Late Edition and did a great job of debunking the lies and spin being floated by President Bush and the GOP on FISA. As Juan Williams did earlier on Fox News Sunday, Reed makes it clear that allowing the flawed FISA legislation passed last August to lapse does not mean the U.S. can’t do surveillance on suspected terrorists.
Host Wolf Blitzer floated out the exact same argument William Kristol did on Fox, which is this notion that Director of National Intelligence, Mike McConnell, is some sort of apolitical figure and somehow that makes him more believable. Reed shot that down, reminding Blitzer that the previous FISA laws are still in place and that U.S. intelligence can still go after suspects for several days before requesting a warrant.
=================================================
These people in the media are zombies. They just lazily repeat all of Bush's crap.
This Week: Iraq is McCain’s Winning Issue
By: Nicole Belle @ 12:01 PM - PST
video_wmv Download | Play video_mov Download | Play (h/t Heather)
Ever wonder why John “Let’s stay 100 years in Iraq!” McCain is doing so well with anti-war primary voters? Maybe it has to do with bobbleheaded discussions like this one on This Week with George Stephanopoulos, where the round table panel thinks that Iraq is a winning issue for McCain. Despite the fact that most Americans want out of Iraq within a year and do not think “success” (I’m still waiting for someone to define this for me) is not possible, Time Magazine’s Jay Carney thinks that McCain can coast to the White House by distinguishing himself from his Democratic rivals with his wargasmic rhetoric, a bizarre assertion that neither George Stephanopoulos, Claire Shipman nor Mark Halperin find questionable at all.
So let’s get this straight: almost two-thirds of the country wants us out of Iraq, but the guy who wants us to be there indefinitely (and Carney thinks this concept has “honor” as opposed to pulling out), will resonate with voters. And Democratic voters have been turning out consistently during these primaries more than two times as often as their Republican candidates. And McCain faces a mutiny from the noise machine on his own side for not being conservative enough. And despite the continual White House and media spin that the “surge” has been a success, there is no measurable documentation to back that up.
So, with absolutely no facts on their side, the media has decided to champion McCain’s candidacy on the one area that he is diametrically opposite from the majority of Americans. I ask you, what planet do these bobbleheads live on?
Transcripts below the fold:
==============================================
This is what I mean about the media being total zombies. Winning issue for McKook?
McKook has tied himself completely to Bush's failure. He's as big a failure as Bush.
Hey media, no one is buying this line of crap.
This will cost McKook the election.
McCain = Bush
Posted by Johne on February 18, 2008 at 07:48 AM
Precisely Johne, I love it that we have money for everyone else in the world so that Bush can look "compassionate" giving away our money while our own country is in neglect and our own people who generate the money (through their taxes) he is giving away suffer. Bush is supposed to "a born again" something or other so I'll give him a little scripture:
"He that does not care for his own, 'specially those of his own house (nation) hath deigned the faith and is WORSE THAN AN INFIDEL!"
Cunningham is polluting the air too. They took off hannity and put this loser on in his place.
Last night he was saying that "the liberals are going to be disappointed because Iraq is a success and attacks are down".
What a loser. The callers are something else. It's like incest, they pump each other up with lies which they obviously heard on some other fascist extremist's radio show.
That is why when I see people saying that if their candidate is not the nominee, they are not going to support the nominee, it really concerns me.
====================================================
goodfoe,
Be careful of paying too much attention to that. There's lots of trolling on this blog right now.
Last night he was saying that "the liberals are going to be disappointed because Iraq is a success and attacks are down".
=================================================
JE, that's downright laughable. The media has created the fiction that "Iraq is a success". What success? If it's such a success, why aren't we bringing troops home now? Just look at the independent news from Juan Cole, etc... Iraq is as violent as ever. Last month 39 American troops were killed ... not one word in the media.
It's like incest, they pump each other up with lies which they obviously heard on some other fascist extremist's radio show.
Posted by Johne on February 18, 2008 at 07:58 AM
==================================================
JE, they are big on distributing emails. If you ever seen one, you would know. They all read like a 2 year old wrote them. Totally mindless banter designed to stir up emotions. That's the essense of fascist propaganda.
coulda sworn i wished everyone a good morning a few minutes ago? anyhow good morning all! rained like crazy here in the hudson valley, gonna be interesting to see how high the streams are as they were almost already over their banks yesterday.
Russia and now China are pissed at bush for planning to "shoot down" that spy satellite in orbit. Last year if you remember, we took China to task for shooting down a satellite in orbit. Now we are doing it.
bush says it has dangerous cargo but Russia and China think that is a lie and that bush is testing rayguns "star wars" missiles.
This is probably exactly what bush is doing. Any fuels like hydrazine would most likely burn up on reentry. bush keeps saying that the hydrazine will hit the ground and spread over two football fields and kill people.
Since when does he give a shit about killing people.
Morning gregg,
I heard last night on the CBS New York feed that you guys are going to get more rain and that they are worried about flooding.
Keep your powder dry.
Posted by rjsnj on February 18, 2008 at 07:59 AM
Sounds like good advice,...Thanks.....
glenn beck is truly bizarre, he goes from really mean spirited attacks on people to sobbing and hand wringing and back again. he reminds me of a kid who might hang around the football team in high school, bringing the players cold sodas from his mother's fridge who then one day discovers meth and and with a weird grin starts putting his relatives through the wood chipper while singing "be true to your school"...if he lived next door to me i'd invest in a lot of concertina wire...
nyhow good morning all! rained like crazy here in the hudson valley
==============================================
Same here. It actually is over 60 degrees outside right now! Totally bizarre weather.
Russia and now China are pissed at bush for planning to "shoot down" that spy satellite in orbit. Last year if you remember, we took China to task for shooting down a satellite in orbit. Now we are doing it.
===================================================
JE, the neocons are maniacs. They are obsessed with Russia and China. They definitely want to start a new arms race. The problem is that this country is broke! China and Russia will eclipse us in all ways possible over the next two decades. Hell, China even makes the components that go into our weapons. All they have to do is refuse to export them.
But since this so called surge is working, they have silenced him. Are they afraid that he will let the cat of the bag, contradicting them.
Posted by marvin08 on February 18, 2008 at 08:18 AM
================================================
Marvin, don't surprise me. There has been a general lack of reporting on Iraq. I go here to get the news:
==============================================
I think the media whores are so concerned about getting the consolidation rules changed that they caved in to the Bush admin. Yhey now kiss his butt and don't report the news accurately.
BBC is also a good source for news on Iraq. You can generally get it on your PBS station.
hey johne, i just went outside and it is really warm...interesting as it was 17 the other night...
marvin...i think the iraqi government pretty much turned off news from their that is anything but positive. any time there is a report of trouble the source doesn't want their name reveled as they might get in trouble with the government...they are taking a page from the way the bushies have run our federal agencies....
like so:
Claim: Lakes pollutant report suppressed
Published: Feb. 18, 2008 at 1:34 AM
CHICAGO, Feb. 18 (UPI) -- The U.S. government is suppressing a report on industrial pollutants in the Great Lakes region, researchers alleged in a published report.
The lead author and peer reviewers of the report, which raises the possibility that contamination might be linked to public health threats, told The Washington Post the report is being held back for political reasons. Lead author Chris De Rosa -- who headed the division of toxicology and environmental medicine at the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry within the federal Centers for Disease Control -- told the newspaper his report played a significant role in his reassignment to a non-supervisory post in 2007.
The House Committee on Science and Technology is investigating De Rosa's job switch, the newspaper said. A spokesman for the CDC, Glen Nowak, said he could not discuss personnel matters but he told the Post De Rosa's report was held back from publication because "very senior people" had "some significant questions and concerns" about its content.
Biologist Michael Gilbertson, who peer-reviewed De Rosa's report, said the information contained in it should have been released "more than a year ago." He said the information in the report was "inconvenient to the administration."
i think the iraqi government pretty much turned off news from their that is anything but positive. any time there is a report of trouble the source doesn't want their name reveled as they might get in trouble with the government.
==================================================
gregg, that's possible too. The military has been "marshalling" the news; dictating what can be reported.
But, it does slip out from independent sources. Iraq is a mess.
FYI for Hill fans - so far so good!!
Paging Moveon (Jerome Armstrong)
Put this into the People's Will column:
Based on exit polls, among the approximately 16.3 million people who identified themselves as Democrats, over 678,000 more voted for Hillary Clinton than Barack Obama. If we’re going to “let the people decide" who the Democratic nominee would be, shouldn’t we be basing that on the will of Democrats themselves?
Posted at 02/17/2008 08:43:33 PM EST - #
PEACE
Will this Democratic nomination come down to superdelgates? Will it come down to the Clinton campaign seating the delegates from Michigan and Florida? If so...how will that impact the general election in November? I ponder these things, as I'm sure many of you do.
???
marvin I think he was a British journalist and I believe his name is Michael Ware, not sure though. Yeah, he has been missing lately hasn't he? I always liked his reporting but I figured it was to REAL for the media to let it continue.
Posted by MJCIV on February 18, 2008 at 08:33 AM
one more time
so far
over 678,000 more voted for Hillary Clinton than Barack Obama.
thats VOTERS not delegates OR supers
get used to it.
Wasn't there public testimony before the legislation voted to up MI & FL primary elections? How many hearings were held?
Where was the outrage prior to their getting the shaft?
Posted by Esmeralda on February 18, 2008 at 01:35 AM
ahhhhh, Esme. I have been asking that myself. They all sat back and thought they would get away with it, and NOW they decide to revolt! NOT against the State, but against the National Dems. You and I would have been out there from day one, had this been our states.
Good morning Dawnie, "Buddy" says "Hi"......John Boy......
From where are you getting your numbers, Dawn? The only numbers I can find show Obama up by 80,749, even with FL and MI:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html
If we’re going to “let the people decide" who the Democratic nominee would be, shouldn’t we be basing that on the will of Democrats themselves?
=================================================
Sorry Dawn, it don't work that way. Besides there are no now allegations that many of Obama's votes weren't counted in NY.
I hate the super-delegate system but please let this process play out. We are only half-way through the country. We'll see who gets the most delegates.
Morning {{{Dems, JohnBoy}}}
rj and Esme are correct, there are lots of trolls having fun at our expense, with their "I am going to vote for McCain if xxxxxxxxxxdoesn't win"
I would suggest to all from now on, no matter how legitimate they sound, ignore their posts.
How many times do we have to try and defend the fact, a vote for McCain is a vote for another 4/8 years of Republican destruction.
By the way, Jerome Armstrong is a strong HRC supporter. I don't believe his numbers for a minute.
rj and Esme are correct, there are lots of trolls having fun at our expense, with their "I am going to vote for McCain if xxxxxxxxxxdoesn't win"
=================================================
Hi PamB, probably redstaters and freepers who think this is "good sport".
Will it come down to the Clinton campaign seating the delegates from Michigan and Florida?
===================================================
Not going to happen.
I hate the super-delegate system but please let this process play out. We are only half-way through the country. We'll see who gets the most delegates.
Posted by rjsnj on February 18, 2008 at 09:08 AM
I hate this system, too, rj, but after watching some of these people come in here, with the most absurd reasons for voting for or against one of the candidates, I SEE now why the DNC decided not to leave it up to the people!
Posted by Ladydawn on February 18, 2008 at 08:36 AM
How many of those voting before the primary by mail with Clintonmania before Obamamania, it can change in the next primaries?
With NAPTA, the Iraq War, and not placing the Florida and Michigan delegation in the convention, how many times is Hillary going to shift her positions? Did not Hillary accept the Democratic Party negating the delegates of Michigan and Florida? Where was her homework words, before the Democratic Party acted? Hillary needed to shout out about it, before the Michigan and Michigan primary. She did not need to use it as a battering ram later by secretly supporting the banned delegates. The only way they can be placed is to have another primary period.
Did not Hillary also seek to get the Superdelegates to commit before the "We the people" primaries, at the very beginning, by calling in political favors? Obama did too, but did not have the Bill Clinton twist to it.
Will Hillary and Obama return the Constitutional checks and balances that Bush's iron fist took from "We the people?" Who is more likely to take the Corporate look out of Washington and put in an American worker "Made In America" feel into government?
Oh, and if you're only talking about Florida and Michigan, my count comes to 623,081 not 678,000, but that's not a BIG difference in the grand scheme of things. However, it is REALLY misleading, since Obama wasn't (as agreed to by all the major candidates except ONE) on the ballot in Michigan. So, dropping the 328,309 votes for Clinton in Michigan, we get a difference of 294,772 in favor of Senator Clinton for Florida. So YOU need to get used to the fact that Obama has won more popular votes than has Clinton. :)
most absurd reasons for voting for or against one of the candidates, I SEE now why the DNC decided not to leave it up to the people!
Posted by PamB on February 18, 2008 at 09:13 AM
==================================================
PamB, yeah well there will always be silly reasons to vote for someone. Can you trust the bloggers that are coming in here of late? Lots of trolling going on IMHO.
Still I would like to drop the super-del system. I would also like to drop the electoral college. But that's another debate.
rj and Esme are correct, there are lots of trolls having fun at our expense, with their "I am going to vote for McCain if xxxxxxxxxxdoesn't win"
I hope that wasn't directed at me! I'm a registered Democrat, folks. I'm just asking the same question that every other Democrat in America is asking: how is this going to work? What can/will happen? I'm voting Democrat either way...I just prefer Obama. Nothing against Hillary at all; she'll be a very competent President...if she can win a general election, which I honestly doubt.
So YOU need to get used to the fact that Obama has won more popular votes than has Clinton. :)
Posted by GregL on February 18, 2008 at 09:27 AM
===================================================
GregL, the way I would put it is that it's very close in popular vote. There is considerable controversy about the vote count in New York state right now. It won't change the overall delegates outcome but may change the popular vote. So, we shall see what we shall see. WI and Hawaii up next.
MJCIV,
stick around, you will see who I am talking about. All passionate on their "If my candidate does not get the nomination, then I will vote for McCain!" It goes on all day, every day, under all new different blog names.
Those of us who are Real Democrats here all say the same thing, We will vote for the Democrat on the ballot in November. Period! The idea of another Bush term under the guise of McCain just sickens us.
Here's one example of who they want to vote for:
(flip flop)
New McCain Rips Old McCain’s Argument That Bush Tax Cuts Benefit The ‘Wealthy’
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/17/mccain-wealthy-taxes/#comments
Good evening, Dems! Just a quick stop. When I was here the other day, I saw a post regarding NAFTA and Clinton.
Posted by Cyn_NY
==================================================
Then again Cyn, HRC has never come out against NAFTA. She's been weak on most free trade agreements. Very few of the Senate Dems have been good on this issue with the exception of Bryon Dorgan. So, I am not all that impressed with a debate about past history. What are the candidates going to do moving forward?
New McCain Rips Old McCain’s Argument That Bush Tax Cuts Benefit The ‘Wealthy’
==================================================
New McCain, Old McCain
It's the same.
He's a pain.
McCain = Bush
Bush Lies again............
Experts: FISA will suffice as PAA expires.
On its front page today, the conservative Washington Times reports that “intelligence scholars and analysts outside the government say that today’s expiration of certain temporary domestic wiretapping laws will have little effect on national security, despite warnings to the contrary by the White House and Capitol Hill Republican leaders.” One scholar said “there’s no reason to think” America is “in any more danger” than it’s already been in since 9/11:
Timothy Lee, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, said the last time Congress overhauled FISA — after the September 11 terrorist attacks — President Bush praised the action, saying the new law “recognizes the realities and dangers posed by the modern terrorist.”
“Those are the rules we’ll be living under after the Protect America Act expires this weekend,” Mr. Lee added. “There’s no reason to think our nation will be in any more danger in 2008 than it was in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, or 2006
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/16/experts-fisa-will-suffice-as-paa-expires/#comments
Financial Markets Are Getting Worse Hotlist
by bonddad [Subscribe]
Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 04:54:35 AM PST
There have been two events over the last 5 days that signal the financial markets are nowhere near and end to their problems. These events indicate the depth and breadth of the problems we currently face.
Bond Insurers Splitting Themselves Up
Bond insurers are sometimes called "monoline" insurers because they only have one line of business. Some bond insurers use to only provide insurance for municipal bonds. However, some of those insurers branched out into subprime insurance over the last 7 years. The problem is these insurers aren't financially ready for a collapse of the subprime market. As a result, their respective stock prices have tanked and they have come under increasing financial pressure.
Now two companies have broached the idea of splitting themselves into two companies -- one company that insures municipal debt and one that insures subprime debt.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/18/74016/2186/779/458915
Yet it seems that in reality the opposite will be the case.
Posted by MichelleLaw on February 18, 2008 at 09:41 AM
================================================
So far, it hasn't been an issue. This is the first time it's close enough that it "could" make a difference. When all the smoke clears, I think the super-dels will line themselves up with their state delegation and it won't matter very much. Yet these complexities invite unnecessary angst.
Have you all noticed how Cnn, has silenced the reporter from Iraq, can't think of his name, CNN use to have him on every evening. On Wolf's show and again on Dobbs show. But since this so called surge is working, they have silenced him. Are they afraid that he will let the cat of the bag, contradicting them.
Posted by marvin08 on February 18, 2008 at 08:18 AM
Hi Marvin,
That was Michael Ware, and yes he told it like it was in Iraq! Laughed his butt off at McCain when he was there and said walking through the Baghdad market was like a walk in the park!
CNN has been protecting this administration a LOT since the beginning. Cowards afraid to tell the truth. I watch a lot of the CNN International Station, instead of the regular one. And of course, I always email them when I see them distorting or slanting the truth!
I would also like to drop the electoral college. But that's another debate.Posted by rjsnj on February 18, 2008 at 09:27 AM
And another Constitutional amendment to worry about with THAT one.
There is considerable controversy about the vote count in New York state right now. It won't change the overall delegates outcome but may change the popular vote. So, we shall see what we shall see. WI and Hawaii up next.Posted by rjsnj on February 18, 2008 at 09:32 AM
Yes, but I thought the problem was votes for Obama not being counted? So even if he gets more votes, all that does is put him farther ahead in the popular vote. Anyway, this doesn't matter to me. I still have to figure out who *I* am voting for in March. Can't really decide it on issues, since (no matter what the morons say about each other) the candidates are very close in their positions and their ideas. Race and gender don't matter to me...experience? Well, neither one has been the President of the United States before...neither has been a chief executive officer of anything. I don't really TRUST either of them, they are politicians, after all, and a politician's positions depend on what benefits them at the moment (according to NY Senator Charles Schumer on MTP this weekend...can you believe he actually came out and said that?).
Bush Lies again............
Experts: FISA will suffice as PAA expires.
==================================================
PamB, he just wants immunity for telcos to shield him and Cheney. The little Chimp is a fascist.
McCain following in Bush's footsteps with his Lies, slants, distortions, rhetoric, spin, manipulation of the facts !
McCain ‘overstates his criticisms of Rumsfeld.
’On the stump, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) has repeatedly bragged about calling for Donald Rumsfeld’s resignation as Defense Secretary. “I’m the only one that said that Rumsfeld had to go,” said McCain on Jan. 30. Yet as the Washington Post reports today, that claim isn’t quite true:
The trick is that he never did, at least not publicly. The senator from Arizona was a tough critic of Rumsfeld and more than once said that he had no confidence in the Pentagon chief in the two years before Bush finally dumped Rumsfeld in November 2006. But even as he was criticizing Rumsfeld, McCain typically stopped short of calling for the Pentagon chief to step down. […]
McCain’s false account has been unwittingly incorporated into the narrative he is selling by some news organizations, including The Washington Post.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/16/mccain-overstates-his-criticisms-of-rumsfeld/#comments
Posted by MichelleLaw on February 18, 2008 at 09:41 AM
You read that incorrectly, Michelle. Btw, if you're going to quote directly from Wikipedia, you might wish to link back to it.
The actual purpose of the superdelegate rule is this:
From Wikipedia:
After the 1968 Democratic National Convention, the Democratic Party implemented changes in its delegate selection process, based on the work of the McGovern-Fraser Commission. The purpose of the changes was to make the composition of the convention less subject to control by party leaders and more responsive to the votes cast during the campaign for the nomination.
These comprehensive changes left some Democrats believing that the role of party leaders and elected officials had been unduly diminished, weakening the Democratic ticket. In response, the superdelegate rule was instituted after the 1980 election. Its purpose was to accord a greater role to active politicians.[3]
This is the first time it's close enough that it "could" make a difference.Posted by rjsnj on February 18, 2008 at 09:45 AM
Not really...it was close in 1984 also, and the superdelegates clinched it for Mondale.
You read that incorrectly, Michelle. Btw, if you're going to quote directly from Wikipedia, you might wish to link back to it. Posted by GregLIf it was a direct quote, then how was it I read it incorrectly? And if you're such a search engine expert, I really don't need to link it do I?
Posted by MichelleLaw on February 18, 2008 at 10:23 AM
When I say "read it incorrectly", I mean you misinterpreted it. Most normal human beings that read and speak the English language understand that.
The changes that were made to the delegate system because of the McGovern-Fraser Commission were what lessened the power of the party leaders, not the superdelegates. The superdelegates were a response to those changes to put some power back in the hands of party leaders.
The words: "the purpose of making the composition of the convention less subject to control by party leaders and more responsive to the votes cast during the campaign for the nomination" are pretty much a direct quote from Wikipedia. Wouldn't want anyone to think you are plagarizing, would we? :)
Good morning from the West Coast
Is there a Monday open thread that I haven't found?
If not, I would like to change the subject for a minute in case someone can answer a question that has concerned me for a long time that I hear nothing about anymore
anyone with real information out there?
Eloy Alfaro airbase in Manta , Ecuador. The United States claimed the Manta base was a “dirt strip” used for weather surveillance. When local journalists revealed its size, however, the United States admitted the base harbored thousands of mercenaries and hundreds of U.S. troops, and Washington had signed a 10-year basing agreement with Ecuador.
http://wonkette.com/politics/george-w.-bush/we-hate-to-bring-up-the-nazis-but-they-fled-to-south-america-too-208549.php
thanks
posted by gregl on 18 Feb 08 at 10:04A
"In response the superdelegate rule was instituted after the 1980 election. Its purpose was to accord a greater role for active politicians."
Hmmmpf! Sounds like a bit of self-preservation for self-serving politicians, and to heck with what the rank and file in the party wants.
This is how I see it: Barak Obama can get Democrats from across the party spectrum (left, center, some(?)conservative), independents, and perhaps a few Republicans to vote for him. That's a pretty broad coaltion of voters.
Hillary can't do that. She'll get rank-and-file Democrats, she'll lose some conservative Democrats to McCain, perhaps some of the far-left won't vote for her; she'll get some independents (less than Obama), and no Republicans. Even worse, if the nomination is taken in a way that people perceive as unfair, she'll lose even more Democrats. It would suck the air out of the room.
I can't get the math to add up for her winning the general election no matter how I crunch it. Am I totally wrong on this? Am I just seeing this incorrectly? If so...how?
posted by high serenity on 18 Feb 08 at 10:59A
I can't read Portugese, and the link to the Paraguyan news service was "not found", but Telam in Argentina is a fairly respectable outfit.
40 thousand hectares is a fair sized chunk of land. The piece made mention that this land close to Bolivia. What the heck is Bush wanting in Bolivia?
According to the CIA Factbook, Bolivia has a large, newly discovered, reservoir of natural gas, that all natural gas production was nationalized, and hydrocarbon exports (natural gas) has produced a fiscal surplus in the country for the first time in years.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/
select Bolivia on the "search".
Things that make you say "WTF?"
Hmmmpf! Sounds like a bit of self-preservation for self-serving politicians, and to heck with what the rank and file in the party wants.Posted by Butte on February 18, 2008 at 11:01 AM
It is the reason that this party keeps moving farther right. Because all the party leaders are worried about is being re-elected, instead of doing what is right. It seems most of them have forgotten the reasons they became involved in the first place. By giving into the fear that if they stand on their actual positions, instead of shifting them when it becomes convenient to do so, they are betraying the people. :sigh: I'll say it one more time. Don't tell the people what you believe what they believe...tell them what YOU believe and show them that it's what they believe too! You'd be really surprised at how many people don't really know how progressive they are. :)
Err, that should be "don't tell the people that you believe what they believe"
Hi Butte thanks
In 2005, I got suspect of Jenna Bush's interest in UNICEF and started following her, actually thought they were pulling something in Panama, because that is where she was headed and I lived in Costa Rica for awhie in 2001 and their citizens were fighting to keep the Bush family from drilling off their coast.
Anyway, she actually headed, under cover, to Paraguya and brokered this deal for the Bush Cartel.
Have heard nothing about it since.
fyi from wiki
I guess no Monday morning thread for us. Oh well, here it goes:
Impeach Chimpy and Shooter
McCain following in Bush's footsteps with his Lies, slants, distortions, rhetoric, spin, manipulation of the facts !
McCain ‘overstates his criticisms of Rumsfeld.
==================================================
McCain = Bush
John McCain Is Full Of Crap Hotlist
by Adam B
Mon Feb 18, 2008 at 08:05:01 AM PST
Let us be utterly clear on this point: John McCain's efforts to paint Barack Obama into a corner on the issue of public financing for the general election constitute rank opportunism of the worst kind. John McCain only cares about public financing when it suits his political prospects.
I alluded to it in my last story on this topic, but loan documents now public on the FEC's website make clear the extent of McCain's perfidy. Here's the one you'll want to see, and the WaPo's Matthew Mosk gives the flyover:
McCain's campaign filed the modification to his initial $3 million loan on Dec. 17, seeking an additional $1 million. The bank asked him to produce something more than his campaign's assets as collateral.
"They said, 'You've explained how you can afford to borrow more, and how you can pay us back if things go well. What happens if things go badly?' " said Trevor Potter, a McCain attorney.
The campaign's response, Potter said, was that McCain could reapply in the future for federal matching funds, and would agree to use the FEC certifications for those funds as collateral.
Under the agreement, McCain promised that if his campaign began to falter, he would commit to keeping his campaign alive and to entering the federal financing system so the money he had raised could be used to gain an infusion of matching funds. Had that happened, he would have been forced to abide by strict federal spending caps before the Republican National Convention in September.
[Yes, Dear Readers, McCain's chief counsel is the same Trevor Potter who argued before the FEC that sites like this one should not be treated as media exempt campaign finance law.]
So go to the third page of that document, where at the bottom you'll see McCain agree that if he doesn't win New Hampshire or place within ten points there (i.e., if his campaign is dead), he'll still stay in the race for another 30 days, "reapply" for public matching funds, and use that money to pay off the loan. He goes on to say two pages later that he agrees to stay within the limits to remain eligible for public financing, modified pre-NH to be "won't break the limits without asking the bank first."
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/18/1151/75637/476/458209
===================================================
McCain is a lying sack of crap.
McCain = Bush
McCain Facing Delicate Choice: A Role for Bush
By ELISABETH BUMILLER
WASHINGTON — Senator John McCain’s campaign advisers will ask the White House to deploy President Bush for major Republican fund-raising, but they do not want the president to appear too often at his side, top aides to Mr. McCain said Sunday.
After a weekend of strategy meetings at Mr. McCain’s Arizona ranch — in a sense, the first Sedona summit of the Republican Party’s new leadership — the advisers said that much remains undecided about coordinating the campaign with the White House and the party apparatus until Mr. McCain wins enough delegates to be the official nominee.
But even as the consensus was that Mr. McCain needed to “stand in the sun” on his own, as one adviser put it, without the large shadow cast by Mr. Bush, left unsaid was the difficult calculus the McCain campaign faces: Using Mr. Bush enough to try to make the tough sell of Mr. McCain to conservatives but not so much that he will drive away the independents and some moderate Democrats that Mr. McCain is counting on in November.
Democrats, meanwhile, have been using every opportunity to link Mr. McCain to Mr. Bush, even defining Mr. McCain’s candidacy as part of a “Bush-McCain” ticket that they say will essentially give the president another term.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/us/politics/18mccain.html?ex=1360990800&en=5599d6d383664116&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
================================================
Trying to link him? They are joined at the hip.
McCain = Bush
John McCain has a carefully cultivated image as a Senate maverick, a man who talks "straight" and is willing to support unpopular positions if it is in the national interest. Much of that characterization is essentially bogus, with McCain trimming his sails on a regular basis to make himself more electable in his bid for the presidency. In 2000, his depiction of the confederate flag flying over South Carolina's capital shifted from "very offensive" to "a symbol of heritage." McCain attacked Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson of the religious right in the same campaign, calling Falwell an "agent of intolerance," and accurately describing Bob Jones University as anti-Catholic. He paid the price in South Carolina and elsewhere in the south and felt compelled to make his own walk to Canossa, giving the 2006 commencement speech at Falwell's Liberty University to establish his born again credentials. On the issue of immigration, McCain supported a guest workers' scheme coupled with an amnesty mechanism similar to the unpopular program being promoted by the Bush White House, but he now insists that he would unleash the army to seal off the Mexican border if elected president. On tax cuts, McCain opposed Bush's Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 because the benefits went disproportionately to the rich, but he now supports making the cuts permanent.
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McCain's flip-flop on torture is perhaps his greatest hypocrisy, particularly because he was himself a victim at the hands of the North Vietnamese and because he has often spoken out forcefully against it. He has also bared his scars in support of his political ambitions, featuring in his campaign photos and commentary relating to the physical abuse that he suffered for his country. Citing his time as a POW, McCain has frequently taken the high ground on the detention and interrogation of detainees in the White House's so-called War on Terror. On October 3rd, 2005, he introduced the McCain Detainee Amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill for 2005. Two days later the United States Senate voted 90-9 to pass the amendment which prohibits inhumane treatment of prisoners, including prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, by limiting interrogations to the methods detailed in the US military's Field Manual 34-52 on Intelligence Interrogation.
President Bush had threatened to veto the bill if McCain's language was included but he subsequently accepted McCain's terms after what were reported to be hard-nosed negotiations between the Senator and the White House. McCain, his off-the-cuff comments revealing his genuine ambivalence on the issue, told Chris Matthews of MSNBC:
"We had quite a period of strong, spirited discussion with the administration about that. We passed, as you know, some months ago a thing called the Detainee Treatment Act, which prohibits any cruel, inhumane treatment, and in this legislation we made it very clear that that still pertained. I won't go through all the details of it, but it does not allow torture, and it will not allow torture. And at the same time, I think you do understand that there are some people who are very, very bad people, and I think that to continue a program for some of them, without torture, is something that we can't deprive the President of the United States of. But I think we struck the right balance, and I can assure you I would never agree to anything that I believe could allow torture. I promise you that."
Bush benefited from the McCain endorsement, saying that he would "make it clear to the world that this government does not torture and that we adhere to the international convention of torture, whether it be here at home or abroad." But the catch was that President Bush made clear his interpretation of the legislation in a signing statement, reserving what he described as his presidential constitutional authority to avoid further terrorist attacks, which would include the use of torture if necessary. McCain knew perfectly well that he had surrendered on the issue but did not object, feeling that he had occupied the moral high ground and picked up the favorable headlines while preserving the president's authority to carry out "enhanced interrogations."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-giraldi/john-mccain-and-torture_b_87163.html
================================================
McCain is a Bush butt kisser, a flip-flopper, hypocrite and liar.
McCain = Bush
Shouldn't there be a Monday open thread?Posted by Huronjohn on February 18, 2008 at 11:05 AM
I guess no Monday morning thread for us. Oh well, here it goes:Posted by rjsnj on February 18, 2008 at 11:28 AM
Y'all realize that it's President's Day, right?
sorry
I didn't know that this site took day off
I have an idea, since the USA has the lowest voter turn out in the world (little exaj) and one reason seems to be that for some it take soooooo long to vote,
people standing in line for hours
being rejected and having to track down the reasons and get them corrected
and on and on and on
solution?: could we possibly have a paid day off to vote?????
many of us can't afford to take off a non-paid day
gregl, i am aware it's president's day and i am wearing my herbert hoover mask all day...
high, it sure makes sense to have a paid holiday on election day. but then wouldn't that interfere with the american tradition of suppressing the vote?
Posted by highserenity on February 18, 2008 at 11:27 AM....The Bush's purchased 98,000 acres in Paraguay above the largest freshwater aquifer in the world. With the devastating drought conditions in the world and the looming water shortage in the SW US, it looks like the Bush's intend for their children to continue the rape of the American people by selling them water. It is also my understanding that there is a large military complex near by, regulars and mercs. They might be engaged in all sorts of activities such as guns for drugs, etc. Could it be that is where all those weapons that are missing in Iraq wound up? We used to have "J" here, she did a great deal of research on this in the central and south American papers and other sources. Unfortunately, I don't know how to contact her. As an aside, it has also been reported that the Rev Moon owns a very large tract adjoining the land purchased by the Bush interests. From another source, a monthly investment letter, I have just learned that a very large amount of oil has just been located in Paraguay and Bolivia has natural gas. Looks like the Bush's are going to corner the market. Water, natural gas and oil. God help the world!
John Boy,
It is amazing to me, that one of the poorest countries in the world, Paraguay where I have been supporting foster children for years, is selling land like this to Wealthy Americans. Why don't they use it for their population. Some of the stories of these children is very pitiful.
Good President's Day y'all,
Or is it now King's day? Oh yea, we already had ML King's day, and that was a little different.
*****
Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so, whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose — and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after you have given him so much as you propose. If, to-day, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, “I see no probability of the British invading us” but he will say to you “be silent; I see it, if you dont.”
The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood.
—Abraham Lincoln, Feb. 15, 1848,
This combines about all the elements that would set me off ranting bigtime. But I think that there are some decent topics for discussion presented.
****
Feds announce largest beef recall
By Greg Risling - The Associated Press
~snip~
Authorities said the video showed workers kicking, shocking and otherwise abusing "downer" animals that were apparently too sick or injured to walk into the slaughterhouse. Some animals had water forced down their throats, San Bernardino County prosecutor Michael Ramos said.
No charges have been filed against Westland, but an investigation by federal authorities continues.
Officials estimate that about 37 million pounds of the recalled beef went to school programs, but they believe most of the meat probably has already been eaten.
"We don't know how much product is out there right now. We don't think there is a health hazard, but we do have to take this action," said Dr. Dick Raymond, USDA Undersecretary for Food Safety.
Most of the beef was sent to distribution centers in bulk packages. The USDA said it will work with distributors to determine how much meat remains.
Federal regulations call for keeping downed cattle out of the food supply because they may pose a higher risk of contamination from E. coli, salmonella or mad cow disease because they typically wallow in feces and their immune systems are often weak.
Posted by PamB on February 18, 2008 at 12:24 PM
That's a real good question Pam. In some countries the native farmers who have lived on the land for generations but who have no written proof of ownership have been run off the land and the land has been literally stolen by powerful interests. I don't know what the exact situation was in Paraguay, ie, who from or how the Bushs' acquired the land from. "J" reported some of her finding from the newspapers in Paraguay in which one high ranking official said they did not want the Bushs' in Paraguay "because trouble follows them everywhere they go" As i said before, "J" had a lot of information on this and had promised to carry her investigation further, then stopped posting here.
USDA: "We don't know... We don't think..."
Pretty much sums up the neo-con gutting of government regulators and oversight of everything that the public has employed them to do.
Hollow secret government that isn't there when you have to rely on it. Trustworthiness gone. Money thrown at it, gone.
what the *****?
I get a paid day off or Christmas as I think all (even we low paid workers for private business) do.
and most get paid days of for the following declared government holidays
These "functions" were simply "declared" a holiday.
I had a doctors appt - for those that question my article above stating Clinton is ahead in VOTES
not delegates or supers at this point
if you had followed through with the links
this is one link
there are others ON that page
I'm not trying to start a fight just point out to those that think HILLARY should give it up. This is a RACE all the way. It will be Clinton/Obama or Obama/somebody ELSE (he'd never be generous enough to include the other HALF of the country that is NOT wanting him. NO that won't happen!) Which means he'll probably LOSE. But that's JUST MY opinion! whoopee doo.
Puhleaseeeeeeeeee! That was my point. I can't hardly stay here anymore. It's just not the OPEN minded place it used to be. I feel like a stranger in my own party that's walking around mostly with blinders on.
Peace OUT - so much for democracy and every voter counting. pffffffffft.
HI goodfoe
Atreyu says "howdy to buddy"
I'd have a pretty good life if I was ATreyu!
I bet Buddy has a pretty good life too!
such it is to be a LUCKY dog! lol
ok I'm out
When I was living in Costa Rica for a short time in 2001, on the east coast border with Panama, The Bush Cartel was trying to make "claims" offshore for drilling. The locals were fervently passing out flyers to anyone looking American, asking for help to keep this from happening.
I don't think it happened. Costa Rica is very protective of their environment, but I would have never known about it if I hadn't been there, so maybe I just don't know.
following declared government holidays
Tuesday, January 1
New Year's Day
Monday, January 21
Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 18*
Washington's Birthday
Monday, May 26
Memorial Day
Friday, July 4
Independence Day
Monday, September 1
Labor Day
Monday, October 13
Columbus Day
Tuesday, November 11
Veterans Day
Thursday, November 27
Thanksgiving Day
Thursday, December 25
Christmas Day
Hey I'm reposting my 1am question, could anyone help me understand this?
__________
I've got a question that I can't seem to find the answer to. When the party decided not to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates, did we reduce the number of delegates necessary for a candidate to win? If so, by how much? If not, why not? I hope we didn't take two populous states off the table but kept the required number of delegates to win the same - it seems like that would just increase the probability that neither candidate will have enough to clinch, which seems counter-intuitive.
I enjoyed actually spending a full day at home. I was off for President's day, and luckily didn't have any plans--shocker!
Getting geared up for the 4th of March here in TX. I'm voting for Hillary (dodging the glares from all of you).
While I get fired up over some of the things Obama's camp says...I will not "take my jump rope and go home" as someone said above in the posts --lol! I will support Obama if he is winner of the dem. nomination. The only real stance Mr. Obama has taken is that he will not continue George Bush's worthless war. And that alone should make you vote for any Democrat!
Hillary '08 and if not then Obama '08
No Mccain--too old, too war hungry, too much like GWB
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