Sunday Open Thread
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In Saturday's Washington Post the paper examines, in two separate articles, instances in which John McCain seems to be either changing his position, contradicting himself, or distorting the truth on topics such as Iraq and his opposition to torture.
On torture:
Republican presidential front-runner John McCain bluntly called waterboarding "torture and illegal" Wednesday morning, again challenging the Bush administration's defense of a harsh interrogation tactic that makes prisoners think they are drowning.
But later the same day, McCain cast a vote against Democratic-sponsored legislation supported by anti-torture advocates that sought to ban waterboarding and other coercive tactics by the CIA.
The Senate vote put McCain (R-Ariz.) on the same side as President Bush, who plans to veto the waterboarding ban. It also was consistent, his spokesman said, with statements McCain has made on the subject since 2005.
Keep reading
On Iraq and Rumsfeld:
As he gets closer to the Republican nomination, Sen. John McCain has been trying to balance his unqualified support for the Iraq war by reminding audiences that he was also a tough critic of how it was managed until President Bush finally changed strategies a year ago. In recent weeks, McCain has gone so far as to tell audiences that he was "the only one" who called for Donald H. Rumsfeld's resignation as defense secretary.
The trick is that he never did, at least not publicly. The senator from Arizona was a tough critic of Rumsfeld and more than once said that he had no confidence in the Pentagon chief in the two years before Bush finally dumped Rumsfeld in November 2006. But even as he was criticizing Rumsfeld, McCain typically stopped short of calling for the Pentagon chief to step down.
While campaigning in Fort Myers, Fla., on Jan. 26, he told a crowd: "In the conflict that we're in, I'm the only one that said we have to abandon the Rumsfeld strategy -- and Rumsfeld -- and adopt a new strategy." Four days later during a debate at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, Calif., aired on CNN, McCain said, "I'm the only one that said that Rumsfeld had to go."
A McCain spokesman acknowledged this week that that was not correct. "He did not call for his resignation," said the campaign's Brian Rogers. "He always said that's the president's prerogative." Asked specifically about the senator's statements in Florida and California, Rogers said, "I think he's really just pointing out that he's the only one who really called out the Rumsfeld strategy, and that is certainly true again and again."
Keep reading
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/16/mccain-cant-keep-stories_n_86984.html\
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McCain is a lying sack of crap just like Chimpy.
McCain = Bush
The violence in Iraq continues. The surge has failed.
Sunday, February 17, 2008
Bombings in Baghdad, Mosul Kill 6;
Hilla Awakening Council Joins Strike
Two bombings shook Iraq Sunday morning. In the Misbah commercial center in the upscale Shiite Karrada district, a female suicide bomber detonated a belt bomb, killing 3 persons and wounding 10.
Meanwhile, in Mosul a car bomb killed 3. Mosul is the site of a major push against foreign fighters styled 'al-Qaeda' (really mainly Salafi Jihadis).
The Strain of Limbo on the Conservative Class Hotlist
by SusanG
Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 07:09:15 AM PST
The Pouter-in-Chief went petulant last Saturday morning about the tremendous hardships suffered by his proposed nominees and their families as they wait for Senate approval:
WASHINGTON—President Bush vented frustration anew Saturday over the Senate's failure to vote on more than 180 of his nominations, including more than two dozen to the federal bench.
"Some have been waiting for more than a year," said Bush, who invited many of the nominees to the White House for an event on Thursday. "As a result, careers have been put on hold, families have been placed in limbo and our government has been deprived of the service of these fine nominees."
Ah, yes. The acute mental strain endured by the conservative professional class as members grow impatient that their promised sinecures may not, after all, come through before Bush’s term ends.
Makes you want to go out and whip up a telethon for the poor victims, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile, back in brutal reality:
The poll also shows that a fifth of veterans have been impacted by stop-loss regulations or extensions beyond their promised deployment, which is one year for the Army and seven months for the Marine Corps.
**
WASHINGTON -- Army soldiers committed suicide last year [2006] at the highest rate in 26 years, and more than a quarter did so while serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new military report.
...Failed personal relationships, legal and financial problems and the stress of their jobs were factors motivating the soldiers to commit suicide, according to the report.
"In addition, there was a significant relationship between suicide attempts and number of days deployed" in Iraq, Afghanistan or nearby countries where troops are participating in the war effort, it said. The same pattern seemed to hold true for those who not only attempted, but succeeded in killing themselves.
**
The Army’s first study of the mental health of troops who fought in Iraq found that about one in eight reported symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.
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Stinking rotten Chimp Bush and the rotten GOP
McCain = Bush
TRUE PATRIOTS
Welcome to the Freedom From Religion Foundation
The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion.
In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery.
The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church.
What is the Foundation's purpose?
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., is an educational group working for the separation of state and church. Its purposes, as stated in its bylaws, are to promote the constitutional principle of separation of state and church, and to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism.
Incorporated in 1978 in Wisconsin, the Foundation is a national membership association of freethinkers: atheists, agnostics and skeptics of any pedigree. The Foundation is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization under Internal Revenue Code 501(c)(3). All dues and contributions are deductible for income tax purposes.
Why is the Foundation concerned with state/church entanglement?
First Amendment violations are accelerating. The religious right is campaigning to raid the public till and advance religion at taxpayer expense, attacking our secular public schools, the rights of nonbelievers, and the Establishment Clause.
The Foundation recognizes that the United States was first among nations to adopt a secular Constitution. The founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution wanted citizens to be free to support the church of their choice, or no religion at all. Our Constitution was very purposefully written to be a godless document, whose only references to religion are exclusionary.
It is vital to buttress the Jeffersonian "wall of separation between church and state" which has served our nation so well.
Bush proposes hiking Medicare drug premiums
By Jeffrey Young
Posted: 02/15/08 04:10 PM [ET]
o
The Bush administration will submit a bill to Congress Friday outlining a plan to raise Medicare premiums for higher-income beneficiaries enrolled in the Medicare prescription drug benefit, a change that would reduce taxpayer spending on the program by $3.2 billion over five years.
The administration’s actions set in motion a series of events that could lead to a full-fledged debate about the future of Medicare this summer, just months before the presidential and congressional elections.
The Bush plan would reduce subsidies for single people with incomes greater than $82,000 and married couples with incomes greater than $164,000.
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/bush-proposes-hiking-medicare-drug-premiums-2008-02-15.html
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How about ending this stupid Iraq occupation?
Damn GOP Chimps.
McCain = Bush
The Foundation recognizes that the United States was first among nations to adopt a secular Constitution. The founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution wanted citizens to be free to support the church of their choice, or no religion at all.
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GOTV,
Darn right. These GOP Chimps keep trying to blur the differences. They act just like the Taliban.
GOP has nothing left but phony "religion issues" and even more phony "family values" issues. These people are fascists through and through.
Bush is such an SOB.
President Bush on Sunday said Congress should renew his global AIDS program and preserve a requirement that steers money into abstinence efforts.
"We don't want people guessing on the continent of Africa whether the generosity of the American people will continue," Bush said in Tanzania, the second stop of his African trip.
Congress strongly backs the program, which is credited with getting medicine and preventive treatment to millions of people - most of them in sub-Saharan Africa. Yet its renewal has gotten hung up over ideology and political debate about disease prevention.
Bush: Keep Abstinence in AIDS Program
It's the largest deal under a Bush program that offers economic aid to countries that treat their people fairly, rule justly and root out corruption.
"I'll just put it bluntly, America doesn't want to spend money on people who steal the money from the people," Bush said. "We like dealing with honest people, and compassionate people. We want our money to go to help human condition and to lift human lives as well as fighting corruption in marketplace economies."
At the news conference, both leaders dodged a question about the presidential race in the United States and the candidacy of Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., whose father was Kenyan.
Bush, momentarily taken aback by a question about the excitement surrounding Obama's candidacy, said: "Seems like there was a lot of excitement for me."
The Calculus of Torture
By Paul Kiel - February 15, 2008, 2:06PM
Yesterday, Steven Bradbury, the Justice Department official who heads up the Office of Legal Counsel, testified before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties. We posted video of him explaining how the waterboarding practiced by the CIA was miles away from that practiced by the Spanish Inquisition -- it was a much more careful and controlled practice (there's no jumping on the victim's stomach or vomiting of blood).
But that wasn't even the most crucial part of his testimony. Bradbury writes the legal opinions that tell the administration how far they can go. And when he (and earlier John Yoo) advised the administration that it was legal to waterboard prisoners, they had their reasons.
With regard to waterboarding, Bradbury explained with chilling sangfroid his legal reasoning. We've provided a full transcription of his answers below. It's the most detailed description of the Justice Department's analysis with regard to a particular interrogation technique ever given.
If you read on, you'll learn that "something can be quite distressing or uncomfortable, even frightening, but if it doesn't involve severe physical pain and it doesn't last very long, it may not constitute severe physical suffering." And you'll also learn that while the victim from waterboarding might panic from the sensation of drowning, the real question is whether "those factors cause prolonged mental harm." Bradbury concluded that waterboarding does not.
The Military Commissions Act of 2006 drastically changed the equation, Bradbury testified, and the Department hasn't yet made an analysis of whether waterboarding is legal under its requirements. So for now it's off the table.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/the_calculus_of_torture.php
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So, now that McKook is in the Bush torture camp, another myth about the "maverick" has been exposed. McCain is nothing but a vulgar political opportunist. Just like Chimpy Bush.
McCain = Bush
Bush is such an SOB.
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Good morning JE.
Chimpy and Shooter should be impeached.
I read yesterday where bush is passing out hundreds of millions of dollars to 5 or 6 African countries to build roads and schools. Then the SOB threatens Congress that they had better pass his programs. He even had the heads of state of these countries bad-mouthing Congress. Why is bush such a prick?
What is wrong with Americans that he doesn't do the same for us. Selfish bastard. He is no doubt giving money to Africa to make his legacy look good. Maybe we should secede from the union and then apply for foreign aid.
Stinking rotten Chimp Bush and the rotten GOP
McCain = Bush
Posted by rjsnj on February 17, 2008 at 07:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks rjsnj
I think but I'm not sure, more Vietnam Veterans commited suicide after the war than were killed in combat.
There was a movement a few years back trying to get there names on the Memorial in DC.
Of course it went nowhere because the so-called no it alls didn't want people to know that!
The president, who started his remarks at a news conference with a folksy "Howdy" in Swahili, signed a nearly $700 million aid pact with Kikwete to help Tanzania build up its infrastructure.
HOW ABOUT OUR INFRASTRUCTURE ASSHOLE.
It's the largest deal under a Bush program that offers economic aid to countries that treat their people fairly, rule justly and root out corruption.
"I'll just put it bluntly, America doesn't want to spend money on people who steal the money from the people," Bush said. "We like dealing with honest people, and compassionate people. We want our money to go to help human condition and to lift human lives as well as fighting corruption in marketplace economies."
BULLSHIT! HOW ABOUT NEW ORLEANS AND HOW ABOUT THE UTTER CORRUPTION OF THE NECONS AND HIS ADMINISTRATION.
Morning rj and GoTv,
I just had to get that off my chest. The chimpenfuhrer is running around Africa trying to elicit praise and badmouthing Congress. He IS a total loser like his father and raygun.
The reporters that are with the fuhrer in Africa were probably hand picked. All they seem to do is praise the asshole and pass on his comments about Congress.
They report that people wore shirts with his picture and they are probably throwing rose petals in his path like the Germans did for Hitler. To the press, our glorious leader is sacred.
They did mention at the very bottom of one article that there were demonstrations by muslims carrying placards telling the asshole to go home but they aren't about to show these pictures.
I wonder if the fuhrer is having rice while he is on his trip.
Good morning, everyone.
Woo-hoo! Daytona 500 this afternoon!
Too bad FL has had it's Primary Election, I love it when the candidates pimp out that event.
Just for s & g, maybe one of them (either side) will show up for the green flag ceremony.
good morning. i see we have a heavy infestation this morning.
Morning gregg and Essie,
Call the exterminators so they can sprinkle the NoTroll Pest Eliminator.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:8
One for the trolls, who can't smell over the internet. snicker
"Self-esteem and self-contempt have specific odors; they can be smelled."- Eric Hoffer
Time to walk, power walk. It's a Bella day here.
Enjoy your day, everyone.
Morning Dems,
This is the kind of info that the public will not digest. They will see that Bush has called back some troops and think it is GOOD, but they will not understand MORE are going in.
It is up to us to make sure this info gets spread. Make sure the numbers of our troops in this illegal occupation, is out their between now and November !!!
More US Troops Seen in Iraq by Summer
Reuters
Washington - The United States will probably have more troops in Iraq this summer than it did before pouring in forces last year - even after a planned drawdown, a U.S. general said on Friday.
There were some 132,000 U.S. troops in Iraq before President George W. Bush ordered a surge of about 30,000 more to curb rampant violence that threatened to plunge the country into all-out civil war.
By summer, U.S. commanders plan to have withdrawn more than 20,000 combat troops deployed as part of the surge. But officials indicated some support units sent around the same time would remain or be replaced.
More than 80 people have been killed and as many wounded in the explosion in Kandahar
bush said something to the effect that NATO had better get with it or THEY are going to lose the war. Say what?
The chimpenfuhrer is running around Africa trying to elicit praise and badmouthing Congress. He IS a total loser like his father and raygun.
Posted by Johne on February 17, 2008 at 08:13 AM
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JE, he's way worst. This one is actually a fascist.
BUSH = DEGENERATE
Evolution gone awry.
Posted by Johne on February 17, 2008 at 08:24 AM
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JE, that's why I call him The Chimp. He's an example of deevolution. That's the logical conclusion of GOP politics.
Breaking- Dallas Morning News prints Phil Giraldi's Sibel Edmonds commentary Hotlist
by waterdancer [Subscribe]
Sun Feb 17, 2008 at 01:13:35 AM PST
Just came across this eight minute old story via Google news, so it's literally hot off the press. The Dallas Morning news has broken the "gag orders" on the Sibel Edmonds story- a first for a major US publication (unless one counts the Yuma Arizona Sun and the Northeast Mississippi papers among the majors).
Things could really get interesting, now. See below for exerpts of the article the Dallas AM news chose to break this one to a major US audience...
Most Americans have never heard of Sibel Edmonds, and if the U.S. government has its way, they never will.
The former FBI translator turned whistle-blower tells a chilling story of corruption at Washington's highest levels – sale of nuclear secrets, shielding of terrorist suspects, illegal arms transfers, narcotics trafficking, money laundering, espionage. She may be a first-rate fabulist, but Ms. Edmonds' account is full of dates, places and names. And if she is to be believed, a treasonous plot to embed moles in American military and nuclear installations and pass sensitive intelligence to Israeli, Pakistani and Turkish sources was facilitated by figures in the upper echelons of the State and Defense Departments.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/17/35834/7515/244/458425
The chimpenfuhrer is running around Africa trying to elicit praise and badmouthing Congress. He IS a total loser like his father and raygun.
Hi JohnE
did you notice from the paper's account, he is AVOIDING any of the hot spot areas. Places that are in turmoil there. Little yellow coward that he is. Too bad his Mother didn't practice a little abstinence.......this spawn would not have been created!
''I wanted him to know my son's name'' Hotlist
by Nuisance Industry [Subscribe]
Sat Feb 16, 2008 at 05:03:44 PM PST
'...for when he's commander in chief." -- Tracy Jopek, speaking about her son Ryan David Jopek.
I'll explain the quote in the diary below. It has to do with one big reason why this election is about a lot more than cable bloviators' snide comments, campaign consultants' spin, ads about who will and won't debate, or diary flame wars.
One big reason why we need to move forward. And how we might.
* Nuisance Industry's diary :: ::
*
Why did Tracy Jopek brave the winter weather of Green Bay in February?
Barack Obama is wearing a wristband in memory of a soldier killed in Iraq, given to him by a mother who said she wants the Democratic presidential candidate to keep others from dying.
Tracy Jopek of Merrill, Wis., gave Obama the bracelet at a rally Friday night in Green Bay, and Obama was still wearing it Saturday as he campaigned across the state before Tuesday's primary.
The bracelet has her son's name, Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, and the date the 20-year-old was killed in Iraq by a roadside bomb, Aug. 2, 2006. "All gave some -- He gave all," it says.
Mrs. Jopek took her daughter to Obama's rally in Green Bay, where the two briefly met the presidential candidate. She spoke of her son, and gave Obama the bracelet.
"I wanted him to know my son's name for one thing, for when he's commander in chief," Mrs. Jopek said during a telephone interview in which she frequently grew emotional. She said she was somewhat uncomfortable getting so publicly involved in the war debate, but felt the issue was too important for her to remain silent during this campaign.
She said she's a Democrat who will vote for Obama in Wisconsin's primary Tuesday. Like Obama, she said she was against the war from the start and had a hard time watching her son go to war.
"My son loved this country very much, I love this country, but I don't feel that staying in Iraq will vindicate my son's death," she said. "And it's not over for us until this war is over. I just don't want any more soldiers to die in vain for something that we can't solve."
Why does Tracy Jopek hope that Barack Obama can prevent more sons and daughters from dying in Iraq? It might have to do with the fact that he is the only major party candidate for president who forcefully argued against the war before it was authorized.
Maybe that was why Tracy Jopek wanted to give Barack Obama her son's bracelet.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/16/183736/020/440/458237
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Obama 08
Yes We Can
Bush hates being irrelevant
by Chris in Paris · 2/17/2008 08:10:00 AM ET · Link
Discuss this post here: Comments (8) · reddit · FARK ·· Digg It!
Put aside his false statements (OK, lies) that the abstinence programs work and put aside his strange comment about not wanting to give money to people who steal from the people (cough, Iraq, cough Halliburton, cough) and you still have an amazing quote from Bush. He has to be the center of attention and it must be driving him mad that he's become a complete has-been and is irrelevant.
At the news conference, both leaders dodged a question about the presidential race in the United States and the candidacy of Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., whose father was Kenyan.
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Yeah Chimpy, there was alot of excitement to get rid of you.
Chimp Chimp Chimpy
McCain = Bush
MOSCOW, February 17 - RIA Novosti. The Ministry of Defence Russia has expressed concern about the intentions of the United States to destroy the American emergency reconnaissance satellite.
"In our view, the decision to destroy American satellites did not look so harmless, as we are trying to provide. Especially at a time when the United States is shying away from long negotiations on the prohibition of (limiting) arms race in outer space" - said on Saturday in the Office Information and public relations of the Defense Ministry."
The Russians think bush is using this excuse to test raygun's star wars "Weapons in Space" program.
We apparently have an agreement with Russia and China (probably signed during the Clinton administration) to have no weapons in space and they think bush is breaking the deal. So what else is new? It's probably chinny at the helm.
The decision to destroy the satellite appears not harmless - Defense Ministry
Johne at 08:13
The chimpenfuhrer is running around Africa trying to elicit praise and badmouthing Congress. He IS a total loser like his father and raygun
Both his father and Reagan were bad, but he's in a whole nother category of bad.
He's a freakin' criminal, and the congressional dems are abdicating their responsibility under the constitution by not impeaching his (and Cheney's) ass
Washington - The United States will probably have more troops in Iraq this summer than it did before pouring in forces last year - even after a planned drawdown, a U.S. general said on Friday.
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The surge has failed!
All we have left is lies from General Betrayus.
Chimpy Bush and Shooter Cheney
And McKook
McCain = Bush in every single way.
Huckabee: ‘Running For Office Is Sort Of Like Being Waterboarded’
By: Nicole Belle @ 6:50 PM - PST
Think Progress: (h/t MBH)
This morning, CNN ran a story “tracking the strain furious campaigning puts on the human body” for the presidential candidates. During the segment, former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee joked that his campaign schedule is not providing enough time to sleep and that, for him, is “like being waterboarded”:
HUCKABEE: I’m finding just out how long I can go sleep deprived. You know, running for office is sort of like being waterboarded, I think.
Really? That’s what we’ve become, when a person seeking to be the leader of this country can joke about an illegal torture method? What is wrong with these people?
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Huckleberry, McKook ... both totally nuts.
McCain = Bush
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 08:48 AM
Didn't Carter march right into the Sudan to talk with the leaders awhile back? He could have been blown away at any moment. That took courage. What a brave man. He didn't have 300 secret service around him either.
Blast from the Past: TDS: Cheney’s Got a Gun
By: John Amato @ 10:55 AM - PST
In honor of the day that Dick Cheney shot someone in the face, and of course was let go—I pulled this clip from my incredible archives. (originally post here,)
Jon Stewart was having a very boring weekend and he was really, really sad. Nothing had been getting his blood boiling lately and he just wasn’t excited to be alive anymore-Until–Dick Cheney shot a man in the face. How quick life can turn on a dime.
video_wmv Download | Play video_mov Download | Play
Stewart was on fire tonight:
“Sewart: Whittington was mistaken for a bird.” “Harry Whittington, seasoned to an inch of his life.”
“Don’t let your kids go hunting with the Vice President. I don’t care what kind of lucrative contracts they’re trying to land or-energy regulations they’re trying to get lifted. He’ll shoot them in the face.”
Rob Corddry joined in.
Corddry : “Jon, tonight the Vice President is standing by his decision to shoot Harry Whittington. Now according to the best intelligence available, there were quail hidden in the brush. Everyone believed at the time-there-were-quail in the brush. And while the quail turned out to be the 78 year old man. Even knowing that today, Mr. Cheney insists-he still would have shot Mr. Whittington in the face.
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Impeach The Shooter Cheney
I want to make sure this committee understands that this rule on super delegates will back fire on this party.
When our country was founded, it was founded on the expression "by the people for the people", stealing an election from the canidate that the PEOPLE have selected using these superdelegate will surely cause many of democrats to either not vote or jump ship and vote the Mr. McCain.
I have been a registered democrate for 35 years, do not tranish the party with a stupid rule as this.
Nick Kristof, who is usually fairly rational, has a disgusting puff piece on McCain in today's NYT (click my name).
The media just keep cutting this awful creep slack!
John McCain and ‘My Friends’
By: John Amato @ 5:45 PM - PST
Let’s start a word counter for the many times John McCain says: “My friends” in his speeches. He seems like he uses it after every sentence and it’s as phony as a three dollar bill. Is Limbaugh or Ingraham his “friends? In one of the most uninspiring speeches I’ve ever watched—I think I heard some weird chanting going on in the crowd of McCain’s supporters too. Wow, almost cult-like. And what’s with that glassy look in his eyes? Jack Kemp wrote a piece that appeared on Townhall—begging Conservative talkies to get off McCrazy’s back.
You gave him your best shots and he took it like a man. Now, as he heads toward the nomination, I urge you to continue to be critical, but to do so in measured ways that will not damage his ability to win in November against those who would weaken our nation’s defense, wave a white flag to al-Qaida, socialize our health-care system, and promote income redistribution and class warfare instead of economic growth and equality of opportunity.
It’s Kemp that’s waving the white flag to the Hannity’s…
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Everytime you hear McKook say "My Friends" you know he is about to lie big time.
McCain = Bush
rj,
btw.
You should go to CafePress and recommend they make a bumper sticker that says that!
McCain = Bush Again!
Nothing like a little Reality !
McCain = Bush Again!
Nothing like a little Reality !
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 09:02 AM
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Hi PamB,
Okay I recommended it.
What don't people get? McCain is changing his so-called "maverick views" to match that of Bush.
There is no difference.
McCain = Bush
What a brave man. He didn't have 300 secret service around him either.
Posted by Johne on February 17, 2008 at 08:58 AM
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JE, Bush is a punk. He doesn't measure up to any prior president. The worst ever ... Chimpy Bush and McCain will be just as bad.
McCain = Bush
why aren't these god fearing, anti evolution trolls in church this morning praying for us heathens??
Watching Freedom’s Watch
By: Nicole Belle @ 4:01 PM - PST
You may not know the name, but you certainly know the faces behind the 501c4 group, Freedom’s Watch:
Freedom’s Watch has been described by critics as a front group for White House policy and a “neo-conservative ’slush fund’ supporting the views of Vice President Dick Cheney“,[4][5] “came out of” a December 2006 “event”[6] at the American Enterprise Institute when retired Gen. Jack Keane and AEI scholar Frederick W. Kagan “talk[ed] about the need for a troop increase in Iraq, “a plan adopted by” President George W. Bush in January 2007.[7]
And members of Freedom’s Watch are among the more frequently invited talking heads on all the news shows, Ari Fleischer, Dan Senor, etc., eager to push their version of reality and neo-con agenda on to the rest of us.
Good news is that we have now Freedom’sWatch Newsladder to watch these war and Bush/Cheney cheerleaders:
Thank you for visiting this site and learning more about Freedom’s Watch - a 501c4 run by Republican leadership and consultants that intends to make a major impact on the 2008 Elections; from the Presidential Campaign to State and House races. [..]
We believe that America is indeed the land of free speech, but it is very important that you know who you are speaking to; Freedom’s Watch is nothing more than a Republican, neo-conservative front group with a strict Republican, neo-conservative agenda, nothing more, nothing less.
You can join the Freedom’s Watch Newsladder and keep all of us informed on their propaganda pushes.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/02/15/watching-freedoms-watch/
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Neoconservative trash. What do these trash even mean when they throw around the word "freedom"? It's just a buzz word to them. Bunch of fascists.
Posted by druBcM*rD on February 17, 2008 at 08:57 AM
You are a stalker you freak,you should be in jail!!
Sunday Morning Bobblehead Thread
By: Nicole Belle @ 5:10 AM - PST
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/02/17/sunday-morning-bobblehead-thread-6/
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Good video in there.
Good morning, all
The Capital Gang is going to be on Meet the Press this morning after the next commercial break. I haven't seen that snake Novak is years.
US retailers get around to safety standards
by Chris in Paris · 2/16/2008 04:42:00 AM ET · Link
Discuss this post here: Comments (32) · reddit · FARK ·· Digg It!
Woo hoo. Aren't they speedy in their reaction to a serious health problem? It's not as though dangerous toys are relevant for Toys R Us or anything. Yes, once again industry shows just how well it can self-regulate. Maybe a few consumers will get lost in the shuffle but is the well-being of children really that important when we're talking about making millions and billions of dollars? Isn't corporate profit more important? They have shareholders you know and those shareholders want profit, or else.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_bi_ge/toy_safety_retailers;_ylt=Air5ZoWq24vugSmX0Aplqzas0NUE
McClatchy reports political violence for Saturday:
' Baghdad
- Police found two bodies throughout Baghdad, one in Waziriyah and one in Jisr Diyala in northeast Baghdad.
Diyala
- Around 11 a.m. A gunman killed an Iraqi army soldier in Al Mafraq area west Baquba.
- A booby trapped house exploded as the owner of the house and his son entered their house in Al Salam town north of Baquba. The two men were killed.
- A roadside bomb targeted an Iraqi police vehicle near the Abu Saida intersection (about 20 kilometers east of Baquba) killing two police officers.
- A roadside bomb targeted an Iraqi army convoy near Imam Wais area (about 50 kilometers east of Baquba) killing one soldier and injuring another.
Kirkuk
- A parked car bomb exploded in Kirkuk injuring two police men today. The car exploded as police approached the parked car after receiving reports of a car bomb in the area.
- A roadside bomb targeted police vehicle in downtown Kirkuk injuring two police officers.
Al Anbar
- Police found five dead bodies on the outskirts of Ramadi city.'
================================================
The surge is a lie!
Bush/Cheney lie!
McCain is another liar!
McCain = Bush
Posted by rjsnj on February 17, 2008 at 08:47 AM
It's about time this story went MSM.
Posted by Zuni_Sun on February 17, 2008 at 09:23 AM
That is something reserved for your fellow kkk members.
It's about time this story went MSM.
Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 09:23 AM
==================================================
Hi Sandy, I agree. It's been getting coverage in the UK but ignored here. If even some of what Siebel Edmonds says can be proven this is most treasonous events ever. Bush/Cheney will definitely go down because of this.
WASHINGTON — Temper, temper. Republican John McCain is known for his. He's been dubbed "Senator Hothead" by more than one publication, but he's also had some success extracting his hatchet from several foreheads.
Even his Republican Senate colleagues are not spared his sharp tongue.
"F--- you," he shouted at Texas Sen. John Cornyn last year.
"Only an a------ would put together a budget like this," he told the former Budget Committee chairman, Sen. Pete Domenici, in 1999.
"I'm calling you a f------ jerk!" he once retorted to Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley.
With Cornyn, he smoothed things over quickly. The two argued during a meeting on immigration legislation; Cornyn complained that McCain seemed to parachute in during the final stages of negotiations. "F--- you. I know more about this than anyone else in the room," McCain reportedly shouted.
Cornyn chuckled at the memory of what he called McCain's "aggressive expressions of differences." The Texan has endorsed McCain.
"He almost immediately apologized to me," Cornyn said last week. "I accepted his apology, and as far as I'm concerned, we've moved on down the road."
The political landscape in Arizona, McCain's home state, is littered with those who have incurred his wrath. Former Gov. Jane Hull pretended to hold a telephone receiver away from her ear to demonstrate a typical outburst from McCain in a 1999 interview with The New York Times.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/16/mccains-sharp-tongue-an_n_87012.html
=================================================
McKook!
Posted by Zuni_Sun on February 17, 2008 at 09:29 AM
He is whats known as a "dixie democrat" dosn't share the views of most dems.What is your excuse?
McCain will be just as bad.
Except that McCain's walker will be in the way, and the Secret Service will have to make sure they make room for that ! The old fart will not be too much longer on those old legs. :)
Remember his jaunt thru the Baghdad market that he said was a piece of cake, yet he was surrounded by military with guns, helicopters overhead, etc. Liar, just like Bush.
It still boggles my mind, WHY a man who has been in war, who allowed himself to get caught, who spent 5 years as a prisoner, would still Cheer on War. Wouldn't you think this would be a man who would say Only as a last resort? Would attempt to negotiate and compromise FIRST? I can only chalk it up to his senility.
Posted by Zuni_Sun on February 17, 2008 at 09:47 AM
I woild not throw that bigot word around you hohmphobic racist nazi! Why arew you not in church you hypocrit.
Posted by Zuni_Sun on February 17, 2008 at 09:55 AM
You don't know me at all either,you just post here to make trouble.You don't want to debate the issues in a civil mannor, you must resort to hatefull name calling and insults,so when you get that in return don't be suprised.What do you get out of it?
Posted by Zuni_Sun on February 17, 2008 at 10:11 AM
I see it's narcissism,maybe a little mental illness.Why anyone would get laughs from angering other people? only a doctor could answer.
Posted by Zuni_Sun on February 17, 2008 at 10:22 AM
Then it's your obsession with Pam, you really need some help man.
The states that chose to move their primaries made their decision knowing they would be stripped of their delegates. The DNC mad this decision and many of the candidates planned their campaigns accordingly. Just because Hillary may lose the nomination to Obama is no reason to try to go back and undo this. Doing so will definitely split the party and usher in another Republican win, and we can't take another 8 years of a republican president. The rules were set and need to be followed. Anything else smacks backroom politics and gives the appearance that the Democratic are no different than the Republicans.
Stick to the rules!!!!
posted by rjsnj on 17 Feb 08 at 0741 hrs
"We're foot slog-slog-slogging over Africa
Foot-foot-foot slogging over Africa
Boots-boots-boots movin' up and down again!
There's no discharge in the war!
.....
Try-try-try to think o' something different
Oh-my-God-keep-me from going lunatic
(Boots-boots-boots) movin' up and down again!
There's no discharge in the war!
Rudyard Kipling wrote that poem and a lot of others over a hundred years ago. If you can find a copy of "Barrack Room Ballads" read some of the poems. For a 21st century war, Kipling had a lot of it nailed back in the 19th century.
Those who refuse to learn from history are forcing a lot of the rest of us to not only re-live it, but die from it.
END THE WAR, IMPEACH BUSH/CHENEY, INDICT RUMSFELD, NOW!!!!!!
Hillary Clinton is preparing to take her nomination fight all the way through June and to the Democratic convention in Denver, she told reporters in Wisconsin Saturday.
"I campaigned with my husband until he wrapped up this nomination in June [of 1992]," she said at a press conference here. "I thought it was fun. I had a good time. I am prepared to go the distance."
hey peaceman, did you watch Schummer (supports Clinton) and Durdin (supports Obama) on MTP this morning? Each side is highly aware of not only our FL and MI dilema, but also the super delegate choosing the candidate potential. they both said that the two candidates will have to get together and make decisions for the good of the party and the country . Leave it to the Dems to F*** up another election, huh?
ps, you shouldn't spend too much time on these little men who have no lives outside of coming in harassing, attacking, stalking Dems. They will all be gone tomorrow or tuesday morning, like they were never ever here.
Good morning, rj.
I think spring is about to be sprung here in the Mississippi Valley.
I woke up to the cooing of our summer boarders, a pair of grey doves, who just arrived from wherever they go each winter. It's been raining for weeks now (sometimes turning to snow) but it's been wet and windy.
And I saw my first practice session by a youth softball team the other day...down the field from the women's soccer practice.
So it's time to get this primary season out of the way, so we can enjoy outdoor sports again and quit hearing all the pundits forecasting gloom and doom for the party if this nomination fight goes to the convention.
I'll be happy to work for whoever "wins" the nomination. If anyone tries to manipulate delegates, then they are going to be working the phones with "paid" volunteers in November while the rest of us in Missouri work our state candidates door-to-door hard.
Any attempts to manipulate me will be met with equal and obvious actions by me to resist them.
For the good of the party and the nation, both candidates must put their personal political ambitions behind that of getting a super majority in Congress.
It's reality check time for those at the top echelons of the party.
Uno the dog is the nation’s idea of a real winner this year...uncomplicated and hopeful. Leave the Rottweiler breeding to the backroom Rove Republicans and their candidate of choice, war-monger McCain.
Exposing the hypocrites on the left and a few laughs. Its a win, win deal.
Posted by Zuni_Sun on February 17, 2008 at 10:11 AM
Maybe you should shake up your routine a little and go gambling with Bill Bennett for a few months. Having a few laughs with a hypocrite on the right might be nice change.
I've always wanted to know where the rush comes from in losing a million dollars and then plotting to make it up by stealing from the middle class.
Check up on that for us and report back...after November.
Don't even think of "cheating" at the tables like you Republicans do at the polls. They break peoples' legs for doing that in the real world.
hi there i'm very new to this blogging thing first time actually i have been a registered republican my whole adult life. but i feel very disenchanted with the whole picture and have for some time. for the second time in my life a glimmer of hope is on the horizon.the first time the candidate elected not to participate avoiding obligations generated in the dark back rooms of d.c. politics.a respectful choice made of integrity and conviction,unfortunatly we are paying the price for his choice.VERY SAD INDEED!!now we have a candidate thats got it obama yes obama.i watched walter on the news as a kid,vietnam was raging,60 minutes was new lbj was president then dick and gerald and oh that carter fellow i made choices based on what i seen and i can say that my choices of late were wrong but the lessor of two evils till GW i have great fears that issues in michigan florida and super delegates will erase all hope for our future this man has what it takes to clean up our own back yard and front yard and then take a break and finally look at what we can do for the world and maybe by then the world will forgive us for GW and our sins and give us a chance to be all we should be in a way we should do it.SO AS A REPUBLICAN SUPPORTING A DEMOCRATE A GOOD MAN MORE OVER DON'T YOU DEMS LET BACK DOOR DEALS SINK THIS COUNTRY FURTHER DOWN THAN IT IS WE TRULY HAVE A CHANCE TO SUCCEED AS A NATION AND A PEOPLE! SINCERLY TINKER
Bush proposes hiking Medicare drug premiums
...The administration’s actions set in motion a series of events that could lead to a full-fledged debate about the future of Medicare this summer, just months before the presidential and congressional elections.
Only if Pelosi rises to the bait. I think she's finally figured out all she has to do to shut down this White House and the Republican p.r. machine is just not to bring up any legislation for a vote. The "national debate" fizzles before it ever starts.
Americans don't care about Republican frustration. In the minds of voters, they are proven losers who complain about everything but have never had any intention of actually doing anything...except lining their own pockets and those who have contributed to them.
The only debate now is about how many of them we can get out of office this November. It's a throw the bums out election. Out with the old...in with the new.
marvin08, they think they can say anything and the people will buy into it. All Super delegates will and can vote for whoever they want to, regardless of how their states votes came in. I don't like it either, but those are the rules and it doesn't matter how their state voted it is entirely up to each super delegate. Mid-election, they are borrowing from the Repubs, using: say something enough times and most people believe it to be true and will blindly follow suit.
If they do not settle this Florida and Michigan delegates before March, we are screwed as a party. Waiting will cause a split. Now is the time to do something before more states vote. That is the only way the party will not split. If they wait, one side or the other will cry foul play and vote with the Republicans. Of course some will vote for either of our candidates, but many will not and without them we don't have a prayer, get ready for another Republican President.
I would like the democratic voters on here and on other sites to consider a class action lawsuit to end the process of super-delegates to be started against the Democratic party. I think a case can be made that the super-delegates degrade and are intended to dilute the weight of our votes to allow the party to determine who gets the nomination of the party. I really do not care whether Hillary or Obama gets the nomination, both will be great democratic leadeers. However, the fact that super-delegates can overrule the voters is against the concept of democracy.
Good Sunday morning,
This is where the present educator-in-chief really failed us. Chimpy tells people to go stand in a corner somewhere and cower while he does the secret dirty stuff: shut up and hand over your dough or else...what, you'll be kidnapped and tortured?
The next president will need some powerful educator skills to keep the issues out in the open sunlight and honest to pass significant legislation in this strangely unreasonable and superstitiously divided America.
*****
BILL MOYERS: It's not only the reality of our finances we are running from. In her new book published just this week, one of America's most prolific and provocative free thinkers says we are in a headlong flight from reason. The book is the age of American unreason- and it couldn't be more timely. Here's an excerpt:
"It remains to be seen, as the current presidential campaign unfolds, whether Americans are willing to consider what the flight from reason has cost us as a people and whether any candidate has the will or the courage to talk about ignorance as a political issue affecting everything from scientific research to decisions about war and peace."
THE AGE OF AMERICAN UNREASON offers an unsparing description of what Susan Jacoby calls "an overarching crisis of memory and knowledge".
*****
SUSAN JACOBY: Everything in my view that's being written about the failure of the Clinton healthcare program in relation to Hillary Clinton's candidacy is wrong. Yes, it's true. It's that failure is usually attributed to their failure to bring the insurance industry groups to the table, all of the interest groups in advance.
No. The reason that healthcare reform was dead on arrival was that the American people hadn't been educated and prepared for any kind of change. Bill Clinton just announced his plan which had been developed kind of secretly, without much public participation. The health insurance industry jumped in with its Harry and Louise commercials. Now I'll bet everybody who is listening to this tonight remembers Harry and Louise. And nobody remembers a detail of the Clinton plan, the healthcare plan. It is the job of the president to get his message out before Harry and Louise. Bill Clinton didn't do that.
I just had a good laugh. I was listening to the Clear Channel radio station out of El Paso. This is the same station that has limpballs and hannity. The hourly fox news came on and at the end they said that their news is "fair and balanced".
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa
I think I just got a hernia.
What, you want the FL and MI dem delegates to be a wedge issue to divide the popular surge of American voters to purge their government of corruption and lawlessness? Get out of here. Tell it to the Marines.
Good morning from the West Coast
I completely agree about the need for our President to be the Educator in Chief
I think that we have two good candidates that would do that.
NOW WE NEED TO UNITE
RNC IS RUNNING WILD WITH THE DIVIDE AND CONQUER THEME TO KEEP US FROM
FOCUSING ON THE PRIZE
THE PRIZE IS THE GENERAL ELECTION
AND I BELIEVE THE “FIX WENT IN” FOR SKEWING THE VOTES OVER THE LAST
7 YEARS
SO----I would like to see the DNC and the activist Dems on this site, (and everywhere of course),
shift their attention to making sure that your vote in the not only the upcoming primaries count, but
In THE GENERAL.
When you walk in that booth are you absolutely sure that your vote is being recorded CORRECTLY.
IE/THE WAY YOU VOTED? IF NOT, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GO TO WORK ON THAT
Otherwise, unless we have a landslide with Repubs obviously voting Democrate that OBVIOUSLY CAN’T BE DISPUTED, ---
I PROMISE YOU the count will be 48% Dem and 51%
Repub. And the PACKED
Attorney Generals and the PACKED courts with declare the Republicans a winner.
WE KNOW THIS AND IF WE DON’T ADDRESS IT NOW, WE CAN’T CRY IN NOVEMBER AND SAY WE DIDN'T EXPECT IT AND THEY TOOK US BY SURPRISE
LET'S NOT TAKE OUR EYE OFF THE PRIZE
marvin,
The people are getting the message of cleaning up the corruption and just need the Democratic contenders to keep the focus on the targets by exposing the secrecy and lies and lawbreaking, an eloquent educator could focus the tidal wave of change, even over the MSM lies and distortions.
Show your non-support of the MSM and its sponsors by buying and tuning into other products and letting them know it. It is an economic battle until the people reclaim their government from the corporate personhoods. Money is doing the most talking, and it just ain't right, but what else can you do?
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 11:05 AM
I'm trying to stay out of the debate with dems on the primays,it got pretty ugly last week with Dems attacking Dems. Some saying they will vote for Mcfake!The super delagate thing has been used before.No one complained then because it wasn't as close as this race.As far as the trolls, I try to ignore them but they just get under my skin sometimes. I'm very passionate about my politics and tend to get emotional sometimes.
McCain and the GOP have started their montra on earmarks, etc. We've heard it before. Here's a great article by Beertap called Earmarks and GOP Hypocrisy which shows us a history of this from 1981 until today and how it's all lies.
Posted by marvin08 on February 17, 2008 at 12:17 PM
I posted on this a couple of days ago that I also thought that something should be done by the DNC and the 2 states quickly and decivisely to plug this soft spot for dirty tricksters. I think every post about this here delights the anti-American fascist conservative neo-con rats, that otherwise see only scuddlement and a watery grave for their twisted ambitions in the next election.
I don't want it to be a wedge issue either. I do believe if this is not resolved while both candidates still have an almost equal chance at our nomination, it will become a wedge. When you read all of the posts from both sides you can plainly see that we are headed toward a major problem. The people of our nation want to be a part of selecting our nominee. We did not get a voice in when elections were held or whether a candidate got to campaign in a state or whether a candidates name was on a particular states ballot.
If the decision to seat or not to seat these delegates is made after all of our states vote, about half of our party will be angered. If they settle this now, before the rest of the states vote this can be avoided.
It really doesn't matter which candidate you prefer, both still have a shot at winning the nomination right now. If we wait to solve the problem of the delegates at the convention half of the party will not be satisfied with the outcome. I think that there could be enough loss of votes that we might not be able to win in the General election and that is unacceptable to me, especially when they could choose to resolve the problem NOW.
On The Age Of American Unreason.
I'm no Dem educator, but if I were I would say something dumb like this: "You all are getting dumber. The publicans want to keep to dumb and make your kids dumber. The Democratic leadership is completely different and is for promoting real education, for all people, and for investigating and educating and fixing the cause of why we all are getting short-changed on learning the truth."
Is that presenting and hearing both sides?
****
BILL MOYERS: So what has happened that prompted this book?
SUSAN JACOBY: In a way it was an outgrowth of FREETHINKERS, a History of American Secularism. After FREETHINKERS was published I really welcomed the opportunity to go out and speak across the country. You know, to educate people about a secular tradition which has been kind of lost and downgraded and denigrated. And I soon found, very quickly, my audiences consisted almost entirely of people who already agreed with me. And conservatives report exactly the same experience.
BILL MOYERS: Yeah.
SUSAN JACOBY: Now, this was not always the case in our country. In the 19th century Robert Ingersoll, whom we've talked, who is known as the great agnostic, had audiences full of people who didn't agree with him. But they wanted to hear what he had to say. And they wanted to see whether the devil really has horns. And now what we have is a situation in which people go to hear people they already agree with. What's going on is not so much education as reinforcement of the opinions you already have.
BILL MOYERS: Yeah, why is it we're so unwilling to give, as you say, a hearing to contradictory viewpoints? Or to imagine that we might learn something from someone who disagrees with us?
SUSAN JACOBY: Well, I think part of it is part of a larger thing that is making our culture dumber. We have, really, over the past 40 years, gotten shorter and shorter and shorter attention spans. One of the most important studies I've found, and I've put in this chapter, they call it Infantainment-- on this book. It's by the Kaiser Family Foundation. And they've found that children under six spend two hours a day watching television and video on average. But only 39 minutes a day being read to by their parents.
www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02152008/transcript4.html
I'm trying to stay out of the debate with dems on the primays,it got pretty ugly last week with Dems attacking Dems. Some saying they will vote for Mcfake!
Those weren't really Democrats, peaceman. Little trolls playing games under different names. The REAL Democrats will be voting for the Democrat on the ballot in November.
ps, I think WAY too much media attention is being paid to the DNC problem of FL/MI and Super delegates. the Media LOVES to rile up these stories. There is not a Democratic leader nor candidate nor super delegate out there, that does not understand what is at stake here, and will negotiate both of these issues. Dems need to chill until these two issues are settled.
like Mother Teresa said, I am not anti war, I am PRO PEACE.
One question I do have is if the electoral delegates of MI and FL will not be counted will their superdelegates?
On The Age Of American Unreason.
Tom
I saw the interview
thanks for posting it
I already knew most of what she was sharing, but appreciate her being able to put it into a book.
The best way to control a group (in this case the underclass) is to keep them uneducated (while telling them the opposite), and if they manage to be able to get a higher education, make sure that their debt for getting that education be sooooo high, that they spend the next 20 years trying to pay it back so they can't pay attention to anything going on with the elite government.
Keep people uneducated, in debt, and innundate them with marketing that will make them want MORE STUFF.
Who could pay attention to what the gov. is doing or if uneducated , even begin to understand what is being done to them.
along with divide and conquer, it has been working great for several decades now
The recognizing it is the key
TOO BAD WE HAVE BEEN KEPT UNEDUCATED AND THOSE WHO NEED TO KNOW-----DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ OR DON'T HAVE TIME.
BOOKS are going the way of the dinasaur
IT IS THE PLAN
sooooo glad we have such good candidates
Barack Obama is a rude brazen opportunist.
For the longest time America knew of Hillary Clinton’s intention to run for President. As Democrats we were all united behind her looking forward to the day we would finally take back the White House. We were all ready to work hard TOGETHER to make history electing the first woman President. Then came the brazen opportunist Barack Obama, a man who is all ego and no substance, to disrespect and divide the very party that has worked so long and so hard to give him and people like him the opportunities he now enjoys. Barack Obama is the kind of narcissist who can’t walk past a mirror and not admire himself. A man whose brazen opportunism knows no limits. A man who doesn't know the definition of respect or community and who only thinks about one person, himself, when he makes a decision. Thanks to him the party is now divided and hundreds of millions of necessary dollars and valuable time has been wasted in a primary. Time and money that will be needed to win against the Republicans in the general election. After George Bush screwed things up so badly Barack Obama saw a window of opportunity and decided to take it. Where was he before that window opened? Regardless of wether he is the democratic candidate or not, he has seriously jeopardized our chances of winning the general election. The rest of us will be left with a barrel full of pipe dreams and four or even eight more years of John McCain.
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 01:03 PM
I grew up in the late 6os and early 70s I'm pro peace as well.
NOOOOOOO.
Posted by marvin08 on February 17, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Some part of this I just don't understand.
Alternative businesses just need some help from the entrenched industries' monopolies that, maybe unspectingly, have become known to be problematic to the world's survival. Innocently perhaps, businesses have been selected for that make stuff that tastes better or makes us go faster more cheaply, but we have found that this sometimes has hidden costs.
Now that science has discovered these hazards of industries, alternative businesses should get some help as a jumpstart to direct resources away from continuing down a dead end. Maybe some help to change over the jobs and infrastrucure to the newer direction.
Presently, the government is protecting these obviously destructive industries that could not make it now in a open economy, because these industries get to write the legislation and give sinecures to the politicians that they bribed to do so. Corrupt and the majority of people know it and want it changed.
upsetinnyc, clearly you are misinformed on which remaining Democratic candidate is the narcissist when you state:
...Then came the brazen opportunist Barack Obama, a man who is all ego and no substance, to disrespect and divide the very party that has worked so long and so hard to give him and people like him the opportunities he now enjoys. Barack Obama is the kind of narcissist who can’t walk past a mirror and not admire himself...
When the Democrats scored numerous victories in the house and senate races in 2006, Barack Obama supported the Democrats in those close races by showing up and campaigning with them on the ground while Hillary Clinton sat around and tried to build up her war chest for the presidential campaign. Bill Clinton lost the house and senate while he diddled with young interns on company time. The Clintons are only for themselves while Barack has proven with action that he is for building up this nation and the Democratic Party.
Hillary is correct about substance trumping rhetoric. Her record speaks for itself. She only has the experience of divisive egotistical narcissistic corrupt politics. That isn't experience I am willing to vote for.
Good morning/afternoon Dems!
Some people have mentioned that Hillary because Hillary missed the FISA vote they would not vote for her. Personally, I think that's a cop out and another Hillary-hater move. Anyone who actually cares about any candidate would look at the voting record over a period of time.
So, to make that easier for people, I'll give you some numbers:
110th Congress
Candidate Missed Votes Percentage of total votes
McCain 261 55.7
Obama 182 38.8
Clinton 127 27.7
So, no one is perfect, but McCain obviously doesn't care!
So, no one is perfect, but McCain obviously doesn't care!
See for yourself
Posted by margotb822 on February 17, 2008 at 01:31 PM
================================================
Good post Margot. McCain stinks!
McCain = Bush
Posted by upsetinnyc on February 17, 2008 at 01:14 PM
You said:
"As Democrats we were all united behind her looking forward to the day we would finally take back the White House. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have exposed yourself You need a better line!!! LOL
You are on the wrong site. We had a huge and TERRIFIC slat of candidates when we started and I for one not only backed Edwards, but also supported most of the others.
If you were really watching the posts on this site and interested, you would have recognized your lie, stated as if it is fact, before you spewed it.
I will be jumping over any future post from you
I'm trying to stay out of the debate with dems on the primays,it got pretty ugly last week with Dems attacking Dems. Some saying they will vote for Mcfake!
===============================================
Actually, that's fake Democrats saying that. Obama and Clinton are so close in policy and therefore so different from the foaming at the mouth lunatic McCain that no supporter of either candidate would ever say that.
But, highserenity? Isn't it Hillary's turn. She waited patiently in line while Bill abused their marriage, so she has earned the presidency and no (how did upsetinnyc say it?)
him and people like him
has a right to take cuts in Hillary's line.
Leave the Rottweiler breeding to the backroom Rove Republicans and their candidate of choice, war-monger McCain.
Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 11:07 AM
=================================================
Absolutely Sandy. It's time to put the GOP dogs into the pound. McCain sure is one old snarling dog. As bad as Bush in policy. Definitely no maverick.
McCain = Bush
druBcM*rD, you can dismiss someone as a troll if it makes you feal better, but if someone is truly looking for real change, Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul, or even Mike Gravel, bring more to the table than any of the remaining candidates.
For full disclosure, and so you won't just dismiss me as a troll, both my wife and I are delegates to the Legislative District Caucuses in Washington State for Barack Obama.
Others psoted on this above:
"We're a Nation of Dunces"
by Chris in Paris · 2/17/2008 12:11:00 PM ET · Link
Discuss this post here: Comments (79) · reddit · FARK ·· Digg It!
Today I gravitated towards Susan Jacoby stories both in the Times and the Post. Her new book "The Age of American Unreason" is about the anti-intellectual and anti-rational epidemics in America. Only last night we had a similar discussion with a Franco-American group over dinner. How do you move a country forward when that country is debating creationism versus evolution? We are not talking about a poor and uneducated country, but a wealthy and educated country. What still surprises me is that many of the uninterested and anti-intellectual people are educated. You don't have to be a pointy-headed intellectual to show interest in the world around us, do you?
Whether we like it (or know it) American money and influence around the world is substantial. Our decisions in Washington do have an impact yet so many care so little. It's "over there" so who cares? As a country we lack curiosity in the world around us as if it doesn't matter. USA is number 1 so who cares? How could anything possibly be any better than what we have? We tell ourselves that we are the best at everything, so it must be true. There's no country that is perfect and you find insular people everywhere but those other countries fail to have the same global influence as America. How can we be so proudly ignorant and still compete? It certainly doesn't bode well for our future economy or especially our foreign policy when we are so proud to be ignorant. As this trend continues, selling the next foreign invasion is going to even easier than Iraq.
===============================================
That's the GOP Chimps for you. They are happy being monkeys as long as they get the best bananas.
Impeach Chimpy and Shooter
McCain's temper matters
by Joe Sudbay (DC) · 2/17/2008 10:09:00 AM ET · Link
Discuss this post here: Comments (46) · reddit · FARK ·· Digg It!
Republicans know they're in for trouble when the first two words of an AP profile of their candidate for president are "Temper, temper."
John McCain's temper is legendary. Now, as McCain assumes the mantle of the head of the GOP, it's becoming common knowledge.
The New York Times also examined the notorious McCain temper this weekend:
One of the trademarks of Mr. McCain’s rebel image has been his inability to cloak his emotions, especially anger. He has been prone to volcanic blowups over the years. And while he would hardly be the first president with a temper, Mr. McCain has been ever vigilant of late about resisting provocation.
Can he be vigilant til election day?
Back in 1964, the Republicans said of their candidate, Barry Goldwater, "In your heart, you know he's right." The Democrat's response was "In your guts, you know he's nuts."
The 2008 version of that statement for Republicans (a little more politically correct) is that in their hearts, they think McCain's wrong. And, in their guts and in their own experiences, Republicans know McCain is, let's say, volatile and unstable.
Matt Yglesias nails why this matters. It's not just about screaming obscenities at other Senators, which, as Yglesias notes is "a faux pas that can be overcome with an apology after the fact." But, here's the real issue with McCain's temper:
Those same instincts could, however, be a major problem if applied to the DMZ in Korea or the Taiwan Straits.
Or any other hot spot around the world.
===============================================
This makes McKook unqualified for the job. Actually:
McCain
He may actually be worst than the Chimp.
Oh gee I wonder if the below poster is and Obama supporter? A person should always vote for who they believe would be best as President and not a popularity contest. This isn't Miss America we are choosing but the most powerful leader of the world.
Oh and I suppose the rule that takes the right to vote away from citizns like in Florida and Michigan is a good rule and we "must" follow that one.
If the primary is part of the seamless path to the final selection of our President then the right to vote in a primary should have no less protection then the right to vote in a general election.. NOt just vote but be reqired that it be counted!
I want to make sure this committee understands that this rule on super delegates will back fire on this party.
************************************************
When our country was founded, it was founded on the expression "by the people for the people", stealing an election from the canidate that the PEOPLE have selected using these superdelegate will surely cause many of democrats to either not vote or jump ship and vote the Mr. McCain.
I have been a registered democrate for 35 years, do not tranish the party with a stupid rule as this.
Where’s the MRAPs?
By: John Amato @ 10:05 AM - PST
Remember this memorable Rumsfeld quote: “You go to war with the Army you have. They’re not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time.”
video_wmv Download | Play video_wmv Download | Play
Well as the USA TODAY found out. That was a fib.
Pentagon balked at pleas from officers in field for safer vehicles.
Oh wait, they did decide to buy them for the troops. The Iraqi troops that is.
Even as the Pentagon balked at buying MRAPs for U.S. troops, USA TODAY found that the military pushed to buy them for a different fighting force: the Iraqi army. On Dec. 22, 2004 two weeks after President Bush told families of servicemembers that “we’re doing everything we possibly can to protect your loved ones”…read on
Their decision cost a lot of people pain. Except Rummy that is….
===============================
Rotten Chimp Bush
Sony, others to step up fight against global warming
Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:13am EST
TOKYO (Reuters) - Sony, Nokia and 10 other global corporations said all necessary action should be taken to put a halt to global warming, and pledged they would step up their efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
In a "Tokyo Declaration" issued on Friday by the dozen companies partnering with conservation group WWF for emission reductions, they said they will expand the scope of their activities by involving their business partners and customers.
At electronics and entertainment conglomerate Sony, for example, one potential step would be working with transportation companies that handle the distribution of its products to help cut their emissions, a Sony official said.
Sony Chief Executive Howard Stringer said that despite the problems and crises that political and business leaders face today, they need to start acting immediately on the issue of global warming to avert the crisis of tomorrow.
"I went to Davos last month, originally expecting climate change will be the main focus of the World Economic Forum," Stringer told a news conference. "Instead, participants, unsurprisingly, were more preoccupied with the global financial meltdown than the meltdown of icebergs and glaciers."
Besides Sony and No.1 cell phone supplier Nokia, companies that signed the declaration include top PC maker Hewlett-Packard Co, athletic shoes and clothing maker Nike Inc and Novo Nordisk, the world's biggest maker of insulin.
(Reporting by Kiyoshi Takenaka; Editing by Jason Neely)
Humans must reduce greenhouse gases: study
James Mennie, The Gazette
Published: Friday, February 15
MONTREAL - The only way to eventually stop global warming is to reduce human generated carbon dioxide emissions to zero, a study co-authored by a Concordia University researcher suggests.
And even then, it will take centuries if not millenia for the effects of global warming to fully dissipate because of the capacity of the world's oceans to retain the heat already generated.
"The main point...of our study is that you can think of each increment of greenhouse gas as leading to an additional increment of climate change," says climate scientist Damon Matthews of Concordia University.
"And so, if we want stop climate from changing we have to stop emitting greenhouse gases."
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Matthews and Ken Caldeira of the Carnegie Institution at Stanford University are authors of the study that simulated the response of the earth's climate to different levels of carbon dioxide emission over the next 500 years.
Matthews said that unlike long-range weather simulations where accuracy deteriorates the further the study examines the future, "climate modeling" is based on average conditions that are easier to predict.
"There's a big difference between weather prediction and climate prediction," he says, "Weather prediction is subject to the chaotic nature of the atmosphere. You can't really go beyond three weeks before it starts to be meaningless."
The study contends that "climate warming resulting from CO2 emissions is not a transient phenomenon, but rather persists well beyond the timescale of human experience."
The researchers acknowledge that a total halt to carbon dioxide emissions "may not be economically feasible," but warn that "delays in emissions reductions now will lead to a requirement for much more rapid emissions reductions in the future."
The study is to be published in the Feb. 27 edition of Geophysical Research Letters.
jmennie@thegazette.canwest.com
dru:
I actually learned a lot from listening to Ron Paul. I would listen, then go research what he said, and actually learned a lot of stuff I didn't know.
Because of that, I actually sent him a few dollars when he was stuggling to get to stay in the debates. I WANTED TO KEEP HIM IN THE DEBATES.
Just because someone believed in Ron Paul doesn't make him a troll. Many who believed in Ron Paul are repubs. craving change and younger voters craving change and liked his message of "telling it the way it is" and teaching history to we who were taught from the wrong history books.
Don't yell at me----I have been an Edwards supporter since 2000, and still am, tho my backing now goes behind Obama
Do you have any other proof?
Mission critical for carbon management
Unprecedented collaboration among science, policy and industry vital to reduce the effects of carbon emissions on the climate
BOSTON – Integrating science and public policy with the needs of consumers and the global economy is critical if we have any chance of reducing the effects of carbon on the climate, say scientists at the 2008 Annual Meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).
“Dramatic changes are in store for the global energy system,” says Mike Davis, who leads the Energy and Environment Directorate at the Department of Energy’s Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. “Collaboration among scientists, policy makers and industry must happen at unprecedented levels with science providing the basis for viable solutions.”
Scientists from around the globe will discuss the role of science, technology and policy in developing solutions to manage carbon during the AAAS symposium The Carbon Journey: Understanding Global Climate Effects and Advancing Solutions.
Davis will moderate the symposium with presentations from Michael Mudd of AEP and FutureGen, Douglas Ray of PNNL, Robert C. Marlay from the U.S. Climate Change Technology Program, Xinhe Bao of the Dalian Institute of Chemical Physics and V. Ramanathan, from the University of California San Diego.
Globally, 85 percent of energy comes from hydrocarbons – coal, oil, natural gas and biomass. As demand for energy continues to rise, carbon emissions will increase. PNNL organized the symposium to provide an overview of the scientific, political, industrial and international perspectives related to climate change and carbon management challenges.
“To have a meaningful impact on managing carbon emission, we need to think about the problem globally,” says Davis. “The solutions have to work for China, India, our own country and many others. Solutions have to be realistic and respect standards of living, the economy and national security.”
Ray, who leads PNNL’s Fundamental and Computational Sciences Directorate, will give an overview of scientific questions that must be answered to "limit this uncontrolled experiment with the carbon cycle. The technologies we'll need in 50 years are going to be based on fundamental discoveries we need to be making now," he says.
Future technologies will require research that scientists are just now starting to explore and other findings that we can only imagine at the moment. For example, accurate modeling of the entire Earth's system -- which includes air, land and ocean -- now requires making sense of petabytes of data (a billion times more than mega).
Capturing carbon dioxide that continues to be generated will require new chemical processes to cheaply and efficiently snag the gas before it disappears into the air. And storing it safely and effectively will require a better understanding of the chemical reactions that happen between carbon dioxide and other compounds in the ground. Being able to predict how stored carbon will affect its surroundings is key to tackling global warming. Ray will touch on additional challenges and the science needed to meet them as well.
Edmonds, an economist and environmental scientist from the Joint Global Change Research Institute, will discuss the latest findings from the Global Energy Technology Strategy Program, a decade of research on climate change technologies. Analyses make it clear that to reduce carbon dioxide to levels at which warming ceases, we need to stop carbon dioxide from hitting the air -- as soon as possible. Tapering usage is one way, but we can't give up our gas-powered cars overnight -- instead we need to take the long view to make the transition to a carbon emissions-free world, researchers say.
In order to have the greatest impact long-term, we need to invest in technologies already available. For example, good carbon sequestration technologies already exist -- and are being used -- but not on a scale that makes a dent in the problem.
The findings also suggest that modeling carbon prices on other pollutants, such as sulfur permit prices, isn't accurate. And unlike new technologies -- which start expensive and get cheaper over time -- the value of carbon itself will always go up, doubling every 15 years. The fewer carbon emissions allowed, the more expensive they get. “We’re presenting insights that other people haven’t caught up to yet,” says Edmonds.
The panel will provide an international perspective on the carbon management challenge. Bao will discuss the fundamental research underway in China to address separation and transfer of CO2 as it relates to carbon capture and sequestration. Ramanathan will provide insight on The Surya project, a comprehensive and rigorous scientific monitoring of soot emission in India that will have fundamental policy implications for reducing black carbon.
This morning I decided to vote for Obama if the race is still going on by the time Pennsylvania has its primary election. It is time for a major change in this country. I'll still vote for Hillary Clinton over McCain if she gets the nomination but I think we can already see a surprising and welcome shift in attitudes with Obama's candidacy. I'm a little torn in this because I think Bill Clinton was an excellent President and his experience would be a major plus but the Clinton campaign in Florida seems to indicate to me that with Hillary Clinton it will be politics as usual with pragmatic considerations triumphing over principle and the Democratic Party badly needs to return to principles.
stealing an election from the canidate that the PEOPLE have selected using these superdelegate will surely cause many of democrats to either not vote or jump ship and vote the Mr. McCain.
====================================================
First of all, it won't be stolen. Secondly, there is no way in the world any Democrat is voting for the insane right wing McCain. If anything, all that may occur is somewhat less participation in canvassing.
This morning I decided to vote for Obama if the race is still going on by the time Pennsylvania has its primary election. It is time for a major change in this country. I'll still vote for Hillary Clinton over McCain if she gets the nomination but I think we can already see a surprising and welcome shift in attitudes with Obama's candidacy.
==================================================
Yes I agree with this. I think it's kinda nice that the rest of country is having primaries that count. Most of the time it's over by super dupper Tuesday.
McCain is totally unacceptable. He's is as bad if not worst than Bush. No Democrat will vote for this creep.
McCain = Bush.
FNS: Kristol Can’t Understand Why Democrats Don’t Trust Bush On FISA
By: Logan Murphy @ 8:59 AM - PST
video_wmv Download | Play video_mov Download | Play (h/t Heather)
President Bush and the Republicans have been doing their best to scare the pants off the American people by lying through their teeth about the current FISA legislation and the fact-challenged pundits on Fox News Sunday did their best to perpetuate those lies this morning.
The perception they’re trying to give is that if the FISA legislation isn’t passed, our intelligence community will have to shut down operations and will no longer be able to conduct surveillance on suspected terrorists — which is absurd. William Kristol is dumbfounded as to why the Democrats don’t believe the president and his appointees (who cares that they have been lying to us for years?), when they say we’ll all die if this legislation isn’t passed. Luckily, Juan Williams steps in with the reality the GOP isn’t telling the public - the U.S. government can STILL do surveillance on suspected terrorists without telecom immunity.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/02/17/fns-kristol-cant-understand-why-democrats-dont-trust-bush-on-fisa/
================================================
Don't trust Chimpy? You mean the creep that constantly lies. Gee, I just can't understand that billy boy.
Bush sucks.
McCain sucks.
GOP suck.
Posted by druBcM*rD on February 17, 2008 at 01:38 PM
Why don't you post the WHOLE post you piece of crap!!You just pick a piece out.Thats just like you neocons you pick pieces and parts out of the bible and you use it to justify your bigoty and hate.That post was a derict quote from his web site and was an EXAMPLE of how he is a hypocrite!!
The libertarian nut jobs at cato have spoken and it looks like they aren't too impressed with Chimp's bluster:
Cato Institute says the expiration of FISA will have little effect…
By: John Amato on Sunday, February 17th, 2008 at 6:38 AM - PST
Bush keeps ramping up the fear, but even the CATO institute isn’t buying his usual brand of fear-mongering.
The Bush administration can initiate new terrorist monitoring activities after the PAA expires. It just has to get a FISA warrant, the same way it did in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006. Indeed, Bush himself praised the changes Congress made to FISA in the wake of the September 11 attacks, noting that they “will allow surveillance of all communications used by terrorists, including e-mails, the Internet, and cell phones” and makes the intelligences community “able to better meet the technological challenges posed by this proliferation of communications technology.” If we were able to get by with those provisions for nearly six years, surely we’ll be OK living under them again for a couple of week.
And I’ like to ask the HOUSE—how does it feel to actually stand up to Bush and his sycophants? Pelosi and Reid respond:
“The Protect America Act will expire only because the President and congressional Republicans refused to approve an extension of that law. Their true concern here is not national security. Rather, they want to protect the financial interests of telecommunications companies and avoid judicial scrutiny of their warrantless wiretapping program…read on
Now might be a good opportunity for Clinton or Obama to display their Educator-in-Chief stuff by bringing the US public up to date on the real history of Pakistan and the US's place in it.
There is like an election there tomorrow that is maybe meant to say something to the American public?
****
Reagan's Bargain/Charlie Wilson's War
By Peter W. Dickson
January 6, 2008
`snip~
Nuclear Blackout
But surely the most glaring omission in the film is the fateful trade-off accepted by President Ronald Reagan when he agreed not to complain about Pakistan’s efforts to acquire a nuclear weapons capability in exchange for Pakistani cooperation in helping the Afghan rebels.
On page 463 of his book, Crile characterizes this deal or understanding as “the dirty little secret of the Afghan war” –- General Zia al-Haq’s ability to extract not only “massive aid” from Washington but also to secure Reagan’s acquiescence in Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program via a congressional waiver of U.S. nonproliferation laws in December 1981.
This bargain may have been dirty but it certainly was no secret. Indeed, Washington’s acquiescence via the congressional waiver was the subject of continuing press coverage throughout the 1980s.
But this history remains a taboo topic for many within the Washington Establishment, especially those who look back favorably on the Reagan presidency.
Candidate Missed Votes Percentage of total votes
McCain 261 55.7
margot,
Those times McCain was not sleeping, he was avoiding having to take a side ! They call him a Moderate. He is a fence rider, careful not to upset one side or the other.
I laugh when I hear McCain will reach across the aisle. I don't want no reaching to Republicans. I am not getting in any tent housing Criminals, perverts, corrupt power abusers, homophobics, racists !
I don't want no reaching to Republicans.Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 01:59 PM
Careful Pam...ya might upset Bob. :)
He is a fence rider, careful not to upset one side or the other.
===================================================
McCain is a rotten opportunist. Notice how he is moving all of his "positions" to the extreme right - even on waterboarding!
Bush did the same thing. These SOB's try to fool people that they will be "moderates" and work across the aisle. But, they never do.
McCain = Bush
mannymoonsaga says,
I'm a little torn in this because I think Bill Clinton was an excellent President and his experience would be a major plus but the Clinton campaign in Florida seems to indicate to me that with Hillary Clinton it will be politics as usual with pragmatic considerations triumphing over principle and the Democratic Party badly needs to return to principles.
Sometimes pragmatism is a principle, although I don't think in the case of the Florida delegates principle applies. Hillary's campaign is all over the press saying that the voters of Florida shouldn't be disenfranchised. I agree with her. Howard Dean must find a way that is open and honest to resolve the problem the DNC and the politicians of Michigan and Florida created.
I don't think the Clinton campaign is pushing for seating delegates from those two states on pragmatism or principle. I believe they are demonstrating that their own personal interests trump the interests of the country or the party.
Posted by peaceman on February 17, 2008 at 01:58 PM
-------------------
fyi he is a low paid troll
new plan is to pick out phrases and call dems trolls
he seems to be actally working harder than most with his checking out old posts, but if s/he can get us to distrust each other yea
divide and conquer is clearly the instructions these days
THEY ARE SENDING THEM OUT IN DROVES
just skip posts
I haven't seen that snake Novak is years.Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 09:19 AM
One great thing about DVR...I didn't have to listen to anything the unconvicted but self-confessed criminal said. :)
Posted by TomN on February 17, 2008 at 01:59 PM
------------------
thanks Tom great info
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 02:11 P.M.
Cool thanks I'm done with him.
How many here have read Obamas education policys
I can hardly wait for a generation that will be able to make a point and/or
Debate an issue with integrity and intelligence.
AND ACTUALLY GET TO STUDY THE REAL HISTORY AND WHAT OUR BILL OF RIGHTS AND CONTITUTION STAND FOR
As evidenced on this site, especially at night, when the mass repubs invade.
My grandchildren with not have to suffer what the last two lost generations have experienced.
Posted by peaceman on February 17, 2008 at 01:16 PM
I was born the year Hitler decided to take over the world and grew up in the 40's and 50's during WWII and the Korean War.
I am decidedly against war. It's so damn childish and macho.
Posted by rjsnj on February 17, 2008 at 02:04 PM
You know what I think is great and shows how desperate the GOP is? How many times has McCain run? And this is the first time that the GOP is supporting him. They supported a failure over McCain, but this year, they are so desperate for a candidate that they're all rallying around a man they hate.
Posted by Johne on February 17, 2008 at 02:38 PM
Do you believe that you can support the troops without supporting the war? I know that this is an idea that many people struggle with, so in your opinion, is that possible?
Hi Johne
I grew up in the 60’s and 70’ suffering from the CREATED Vietnam War
Spent my young adulthood trying to get our soldiers home, and being called all the same names and more that is happening today.
So I guess that says how I feel about war
I used to say that I am against pre-emtive war, created war, provoked war, etc
As as I have studied more and more history, and more and more of the truth comes out 30 years later, it turns out that ALL our wars have been for the benefit of a very few, with the loss being to the millions who are mis-informed so the attrocities can be carried out.
Good evening,
High, I've figured a way out of the Florida Michigan delegate problem. If Obama is serious about uniting the party and the country then he should join with Hillary and get the DNC to seat the delegates. That is the only way you will have a win win situation and not further damage the Democratic voters in these two states. Hillary wins because she won the states and Obama wins because he will be percieved as putting the country ahead of his political agenda and will posibly have enough good will to propel him to victory. If he does that then I will set aside my anger (being a Florida voter) and support him if he wins.
Posted by davidpga on February 17, 2008 at 02:49 PM
-----------------------
Keep posting I get a huge laugh every time
well, when except when you are raging and THREATENING TO VOTE FOR MCCAIN if we don't agree with you.
now i just have to skip those :-))
I will be jumping over any future post from youPosted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 01:33 PM
I would think ignoring it would be more effective. I'm not sure what country this person wishes to live in, but it certainly isn't the U.S., where we have ELECTIONS to choose our leaders from a pool of people who are basically applying for the job. We don't just hand it out on the basis of "I've been around longest, so I get it".
Hi margo
I have always tryed to support my military people by KEEPING THEM OUT OF CREATED WARS.
and when that hasn't worked
Make sure there are as few casualties as possible by being an activist to GET THEM OUT OF UN-NECESSARY HARMS WAY
thanks for the question I know it wasn't to me
Not asking anyone to agree with me just stating facts. Its a character flaw :)
Greg,
ignoring Florida and Michigan will cost us the election!
davidpga, your "evening begins pretty early out their in Florida. It's barely noon here on the best coast.
Your compromise of Barack Obama giving in to the Hillary hypocrisy sounds like the Democratic house's and senate's way of compromise with Bush. Just give in and let the whiners be winners.
If Barack's campaign paid for another "real" election in Florida, would you go out and vote again, or are you too stubborn to do that because you already went to the great effort of voting once and you want that vote to count?
GregL
I was new to this site a week+ ago and wasted alot of time until someone explained troll to me.
upsetinnyc is a troll, and I am now trying to point out the obvious trolls so that anyone new to this site who is really trying to learn and have educational debates, won't get turned off.
I usually just address them once to point it out and then jump over any further posts from them that day
thanks
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 02:58 PM
No problem. The question is open to anyone.
I am torn because I do not support the war in Iraq, but I have friends fighting (best friend deploying for 15 months soon), so I want them to have the best equipment available. The best option, of course, would be bringing them home.
trying to start the divide and conquer on the florida/michigan again
not biting
Posted by druBcM*rD on February 17, 2008 at 02:08 PM
Really? Hmm, there was no post on July 23, 2007 at 10:48 PM, BY ANYONE, in any of the threads I've found. So you might want to, if your pea-brain can handle the concept, link back to the actual post, fuck-face.
margot,
I support the troops although I don't support the all volunteer army or bush's illegal war.
Troops for WWII and the Korean war were drafted. We had a small core of military prior to WWII but most of the enlisted men were draftees. Most of them were most likely not too happy about going to war but felt that they owed it to God and country.
After WWII and Korea, many of these folks stayed in the military because it was considered a good job and paid fairly well.
I know when I was in the Army in 1959 through 1962, the draftees I met in basic training were somewhat antagonistic toward the professional soldiers, but they did their duty for God and country and always grumbled about it. There was no question in their minds about being supported. I know that I felt that way when I served.
Vietnam was the first war I can remember where the troops were judged pretty harshly upon their return and it wasn't their fault that they had to serve. The peace movement was pretty strong at the time and many did not serve and fled to canada.
I think this "support the troops" motto is a neocon invention.
I feel that we should be like Switzerland where every man is duty bound to be available to fight a war until age 55. They are trained and keep their weapons and equipment at home. They haven't had a war in over 150 years. They must be doing something right.
hi margot
all evidence is that the best equipment is not being supplied to them anyway, with every dollar bush has asked for being given.
best way to keep him/her safe
get um out of there
Anderson, Be realistic, thats not going to happen and no, I will not vote twice no matter who pays for it. Are we children who cannot face problems headon and are looking for a way to "save face". Again, nobody has given even a hint of a reason why Florida and Michigan has to vote when told so by Howard Dean.
Good afternoon, Dems.
I wonder if Chris Matthews and David Shuster are total sexist pigs, or they are just attacking Hillary because their boss, General Electric, wants a pro-nuclear power President?
hi anderson
please refer to my post
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 02:55 PM
Posted by margotb822 on February 17, 2008 at 02:47 PM
Hi margot, this is how to support soldiers, IMO.
Congress must assert it authority and obligation under the constitution and either daclare war on some nation otherwise rescind the authority for military action it has given to this president and make it clear that we are not at war.
If congress declares war, it should state the mission and the nation will support the soldiers in such.
If we are declared not at war, congress can fund a mission of maintaining the peace for the military,
which also should find wide support from citizens.
The president is taking advantage of this issue by ordering illegal and unconstitutional actions of the military, putting soldiers in harms way, and then daring congress and the people to leave them in the peril if they don't get involved in such actions. To force them to be complicit in these wrong actions and so have no alternative but to continue.
Justice Stanley Reed, in Smith v. Allwright (1944)
When primaries become a part of the machinery for choosing officials, state and national, as they have here, the same tests to determine the character of discrimination or abridgement should be applied to the primary as are applied to the general election. . . . The United States is a constitutional democracy. Its organic law grants to all citizens a right to participate in the choice of elected officials without restriction by any State because of race. This grant to the people of the opportunity for choice is not to be nullified by a State through casting its electoral process in a form which permits a private organization to practice racial discrimination in the election. Constitutional rights would be of little value if they could be thus indirectly denied.
The Right to Vote
JESSE JACKSON JR.
"The vote" is a human right. It is seen as an American right. In a democracy there is nothing more fundamental than having the right to vote.
And yet the right to vote is not a fundamental right in our Constitution. Some liberals argue that the fundamental right to vote for every American citizen is implied in the Constitution, based on Supreme Court precedent. Yet when I ask them about the denial of voting representation in Congress to District of Columbia citizens, or about the denial of ex-felons' voting rights in most states, many liberals concede that the current structure of our Constitution limits the ability of the courts and Congress to adequately address important voting-rights issues.
It is amazing to me that many Democrats failed to grasp the most fundamental finding in Bush v. Gore: "The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States."
Our voting system's foundation is built on the sand of states' rights and local control. We have fifty states, 3,141 counties and 7,800 different local election jurisdictions. All separate and unequal.
Fighting for human and constitutional rights is a theme, and a strategy, that could keep Democrats together for the next fifty years, election after election. It's time to begin a lofty fight to add the right to vote to the Constitution--and paint a truer picture of most Republicans as undemocratic. It's time to stand up and insure every American's right to vote to have that vote fully protected and to have it fairly counted.
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 02:49 PM
I agree. I didn't realize until just recently that we started the Spanish American war in 1898 with a premptive strike against the Spanish in Cuba. World War II was brought about by our interference in the Pacific which was Japan's bailiwick. We cut off the oil supplies to Japan and that is partly why they attacked us. World War I was started when the Germans sank our ships. We were probably supplying England with goods like we did in WWII.
Johne
You explained that much better than I
thank you
and yes---Switzerland is a good example
Recently reading about Costa Rica's history and they are very much the same.
Diseminated their military and put that tax money into education, healthcare, and protecting the environment.
Their citizens are very comfortable that they will not be attacked and are safe.
Pretty smart for a stupid third world country.
anyway, off the subject, but it was something I am presently reading about :-)
110th Congress
Candidate Missed Votes Percentage of total votes
McCain 261 55.7
Obama 182 38.8
Clinton 127 27.7
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 01:31 PM
This morning on CNN, the reporter stated these numbers and said "... 39% for Sen. Obama, and Sen. Clinton WAS THERE for only a quarter of the votes."
I was like WHAT!?! She missed a quarter, not was there for a quarter. How could someone twist those numbers like that? Way to go, CNN.
Posted by Manymoonsago on February 17, 2008 at 01:50 PM "This morning I decided to vote for Obama if the race is still going on by the time Pennsylvania has its primary election. It is time for a major change in this country. I'll still vote for Hillary Clinton over McCain if she gets the nomination but I think we can already see a surprising and welcome shift in attitudes with Obama's candidacy. I'm a little torn in this because I think Bill Clinton was an excellent President and his experience would be a major plus but the Clinton campaign in Florida seems to indicate to me that with Hillary Clinton it will be politics as usual with pragmatic considerations triumphing over principle and the Democratic Party badly needs to return to principles."
She did not campaign in Florida, but Obama did run commercials there.
I think this "support the troops" motto is a neocon invention.
I feel that we should be like Switzerland where every man is duty bound to be available to fight a war until age 55. They are trained and keep their weapons and equipment at home. They haven't had a war in over 150 years. They must be doing something right.
Posted by Johne on February 17, 2008 at 03:10 PM
Two things: I hate those support the troops yellow stickers that people plaster on their SUVs. It seems as bogus as the flag lapel pin. I believe that patriotism is in actions not words. I always want to ask those people 'So how, exactly, are you supporting the troops?' but I think the answer is going to be 'I voted for W,' which is stupid and not supporting the troops or patriotic.
Second, the Swiss have a somewhat questionable history as far as WWII is concerned. Lots of plundered Nazi "treasure" was stored in Switzerland. Makes me question their neutrality. But, I do believe that the idea of a military for national defense, not offense, is one we need to embrace.
If Barack's campaign paid for another "real" election in Florida, would you go out and vote again, or are you too stubborn to do that because you already went to the great effort of voting once and you want that vote to count?
Flaws in your post!
one it was a real election conducted by the State of Florida just like all the other states have done.
two all the names were on the ballot and Obama even ran ads there.
three since when did a person vote become "NOT REAL" A second vote would just be a slap in the face of free and open elections. Should we have a 3rd and 4th just to make sure you get the resulst you are looking for up until November elections?
Last this is not about Obama or his supporters or the DNC or Hillary Clinton and her supporters. It is about the American right to vote in the seamless process of selecting our President. The citizens of Florida and Michigan have the same right as any other US citizen and no one in or out of the government, including the DNC has the right to take that right away.
A revote or re do of any kind no matter how you cut it says your rights are taken away and voice is thrown in the ole crapper. WE not just they then have no rights at all! yeah its that important!
For the longest time America knew of Hillary Clinton’s intention to run for President. As Democrats we were all united behind her...
That's a pretty big assumption.
Edwards would have been the logical candidate to run this time since he was the V.P. candidate in 2004. It would seem to me that she is as brazen as Obama in wanting to upstage Edwards for the nomination.
By your thinking, the one with the longest yearning for the job should get it. That gives The Elf the best credentials. He's been there since the 1960's when Clinton was supporting Goldwater over Johnson. Seems to me that puts her at the back of the line.
hi highserenity, when you refer me back to your post are you saying that maybe I should just ignore davidpga's posts or are you saying that the Michigan/Florida delegate issue is not important enough to search for a solution?
Clearly davidpga won't change his mind and Howard Dean won't address the issue in a straightforward manner and the Clinton campaign only wants an agreement that favors them and the Obama campaign only wants to follow the rules (although any suggestion of handcuffing the super-delegates to vote for any particular candidate would be a violation of the rules in that arena).
The Florida/Michigan delegate issue isn't a fabrication of the media as some would suggest. It is a consequence of the bad politics that both parties are playing.
The DNC may not hold the line on their original ruling because it was a stupid ruling, but if they don't hold the line they alienate numerous "hopeful" supporters.
The Florida situation is the most egregious for a number of reasons. The way Hillary played to their sentiments prior to the primary invalidates any real results. The fact that it was Republican politicians that set the primary date complicates the matter. The previous election with hanging chads adds fuel. Florida Democratic leaders chose to ignore rules assuming that Howard Dean would cave (he may still prove to be spineless).
Bush and Clinton camps both play by the same set of win at all costs no matter what it does to you and your constituents long term.
Florida and Michigan delegates are a real issue that requiresa real solution from real leaders.
Big_Yellow_Dog, I have been very disappointed in that network's quality of coverage and the slant they are putting on everything. They can not come out and simply say of these three candidates that Hillary showed up for the most votes or that she missed the least amount of votes. The truth is not what they want to stress or what they want the public to realize.
margot
your point is well taken
I agree, but can't figure out how with "national defence"
the need to keep feeding the military complex and the need for awarding weapons contracts will create the need to put our nation at risk so they can use up the store of weapon and build more.
What will happen to get us stirred up enough to say ATTACK REVENGE aagain?
The only way I can come up with to prevent this, is to make sure we elect and/or replace those that clearly do not represent these blood sucking/spilling corporations.
Posted by gemstone on February 17, 2008 at 03:35 PM
Excellently stated.
Posted by Big_Yellow_Dog on February 17, 2008 at 03:21 PM
And I wonder how many people caught that? (Well, I'm sure the people that watch CNN on Sunday may have). But, that's why I went to the site to check the numbers.
The citizens of Florida and Michigan have the same right as any other US citizen and no one in or out of the government, including the DNC has the right to take that right away.
geeesh, if only the citizens of FL and MI had felt this strongly WHILE their States and STATE parties were taking away their rights, revolted and rose up BEFORE this all went down, maybe, just maybe we all would not now be held hostage by these 2 states ! To blame it on the National DNC, who's rules were voted and accepted by FL and MI, is ridiculous.
Hello Good Dems,
Some of you know me, some don't (there's a lot of new names here...), but I want to share this information for any North Carolinians here about the NC Veterans Caucus.
anderson
thanks for the question
he isn't looking for answers
from his ad-nausium previous posts it has become clear that
it is a waste of time
he is following the new marching orders to use this issue to DIVIDE AND CONQUER
he also does the FEAR FEAR FEAR OF
IF YOU DON'T ADDRESS THIS I WILL VOTE FOR MCCAIN
so address him if you must, just trying to give you a heads up
this issue will be solved, definately not in a way that we will all agree with, I, for one will probably be not happy about it, but
AT THE END OF THE DAY WE WILL ALL VOTE DEM IN NOVEMBER
Thank-you Gemstone and well said Anderson! Lets see if a real leader emerges. Obama has the power will he lead or will he continue (along with Hoard Dean) to divide the party. A simple solution to a complex problem. Seat the delegates and lets take on McCain
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 03:42 PM
I'm sure those companies can still arm countries around the world as they fight their own wars (sarcasm). Honestly, I believe we need to move away from war as a solution to any problem. How can we be a model nation if we aren't acting that way? And that definitely starts with electing people who will be leaders and diplomats, not aggressive warmongerers.
gemstone,
three since when did a person vote become "NOT REAL" A second vote would just be a slap in the face of free and open elections.
The straw poll at the Iowa fair isn't a real vote because it doesn't select any delegates. In Washington State this Tuesday a primary is being held. The ballots for the Democratic choices have all of the candidates names on them, but it won't be a "real" vote because our state party chooses to hold caucuses instead of using the primary that the state holds each election cycle. I voted in our primary (mail in ballot) knowing that the results won't count for anything. Michigan and Florida held elections that weren't "real" when they chose to violate the rules set forth by the governing body of the Democratic Party. The lawsuit they attempted was rightly thrown out because it wasn't a government election; it was a party politics issue. Every poll that is taken attempts to measure how people will vote in real elections. Clearly, many of the polls are not correct. Valid votes should be taken in Michigan and Florida, in order for the delegates to be seated.
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 02:47 PM
This is a really important question, and nobody stops to think about it. IMO, it's a cleaver Republican way of framing the debate so they can't lose the debate... unless people think about it.
Let's look at this logic, shall we?
You can't support the children unless you support the No Child Left Behind Act. Wrong.
You can't support the senior citizens unless you support the Prescription Drug Plan. Wrong.
You can't support Education if you don't want to abolish the Department of Education. Wrong.
You can't support the forests if you don't support the Healthy Forest Initiative. Wrong.
You can not support the environment if you don't support the Clean Air Act. Wrong.
These are all false arguments. Supporting Cheney's Middle East policy, with moving goal posts, has NOTHING to do with "supporting the troops."
Personally, I don't see how people can support the troops, and support the troops being sent into a civil war. I don't understand how people can think that they are supporting the troops by asking them to go into an unnecessary and hostile conflict. With supporters like that... who needs enemies?
Posted by momoaizo on February 17, 2008 at 03:47 PM
-------------------
thanks good information and this might help with margo's question
I don't understand how people can think that they are supporting the troops by asking them to go into an unnecessary and hostile conflict. With supporters like that... who needs enemies?
Posted by Big_Yellow_Dog on February 17, 2008 at 03:52 PM
================================================
big_yellow, we had our disagreements over Hillary versus Barack but on this point I agree with you 100%. The GOP got us into this mess and made sure we stayed right there. Chimpy Bush and Shooter Cheney (the impeachment boz) are to blame. McCain is no better than Bush/Cheney since he wants to stay there 100 years.
McCain = Bush
Bush sucks.
AND
McCain sucks.
“Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. Any man who has once proclaimed violence as his method is inevitably forced to take the lie as his principle.”
—Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Nobel Prize lecture, 1973
peace
High, Im sorry you feel that way. I am not the one who divided the party and I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I am voicing what many voters here in Florida feel. If this is not fixed and soon then we have no chance of winning. It is clear to me that Florida doesnt matter to you or the DNC. I will leave now and you wont have to hear how screwed up this situation is. Just sit back in your chair and wait, close your ears and tell yourself it will be allright. But dont cry to anyone when McCain wins. I dont want to see that happen but it is not up to me. I've done my part. I voted and I have let the party know how I and many more Florida voters feel. I'm under a tornado watch now and will be moving on.
...I believe we need to move away from war as a solution to any problem.
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 03:51 PM
A Professor once said that "war is the product of failed negotiations and failed diplomacy." The more time that passes proves this statement is correct. And yes, it does sent the wrong message to kids, society, and the World, IMO.
I think this "support the troops" motto is a neocon invention.
=================================================
Support the troops by getting them out of Iraq.
Posted by Big_Yellow_Dog on February 17, 2008 at 03:52 PM
It is a complex argument. I know many of the troops are struggling with the war as well. You are right, it is a civil war and our troops do not need to be there.
It is such a complex issue, and I think that the conservatives refuse to think about all the angles. I believe that we need to bring the troops home because they should not be fighting another nation's civil war, but on the other hand, there would be no civil war without American intervention, so do we have an obligation to help put it back together? I think so, but I don't think troops are the answer.
The clever trick is in the naming. Global War on Terror, Protect America, Patriot Act, etc. To that casual observer, someone who votes against these things is not a patriot and does not want to protect America (so the neocons hope the thinking goes).
It is such a complex issue, and I think that the conservatives refuse to think about all the angles.
====================================================
Margot, it's not complicated at all. Just start bringing the troops home immediately. We shouldn't have gone to Iraq in the first place and we should not continue to occupy it. Let the Iraqi people sort out their differences. They are the only ones that can do that.
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 03:45 PM
Thanks. I wanted to check it too. I couldn't believe my ears. Maybe this can be a new slogan for CNN and the MSM: "All the news that's fit to spin."
The Global War on Terror was a brilliant way of keeping us in a never ending war because it is not against and particular country.
Kinda like the last many decades of the War on Drugs.
People can't seem to grasp the concept that the purpose is not to protect the people, or that we just don't know how to negotiate.
the purpose is to take the money out of the citizens pockets and put it in thier own corporations while looking like they are "protecting you"
It so boggles the mind that a human being can possibly really do this, let alone the representatives that we have hired
that they keep looking for other innocent reasons.
Posted by Johne on February 17, 2008 at 03:10 PM
I know that people today aren't drafted, but in many cases, it's economic drafting. Many of the enlisted are from lower income areas and are forced to "join the army or go to jail." Drugs, gangs, poverty, these are the things that draw many into the military. They have no knowledge of politics (that's the officers). I see too many people who have no other way out of their situation than into another, more dangerous one. Think of it as another side effect of the Bush economic plan; drive people into poverty so they join the military in order to keep the war going (oooh I see a conspiracy developing)
Posted by andersonislanderforobama on February 17, 2008 at 03:37 PM
anderson,
I'm for doing a new primary in Florida and just putting Mickey Mouse on the ballot. Goofy will then contest the results and we will be back to square one?
Seriously, I had been pushing for giving Democratic voters in both states a mail-in primary and withholding seating for their state super delegates as the solution. But now I realize that one side or the other would pout about that, too.
So now I'm back to thinking let them live with the consequences of breaking the rules that they had agreed on.
There were some pretty dumb state officals risking damnation for their entire state membership by daring the DNC to call their bluff...but they went for it anyway. So let the voters of Florida and Michigan purge the nitwits who caused this controversy.
This is a diversion away from the rest of the states who are now having primaries and caucuses.
These states waited patiently in line for their turn and are now, for the first time in a long time, having an important say in the process. Let them bask in the limelight.
Florida and Michigan have gotten enough fanfare. Let their Democratic voters deal with their own problem officials.
was supposed to be "ANY particular country"
sorry passionate about this
The citizens of Florida and Michigan have the same right as any other US citizen and no one in or out of the government, including the DNC has the right to take that right away.
geeesh, if only the citizens of FL and MI had felt this strongly WHILE their States and STATE parties were taking away their rights, revolted and rose up BEFORE this all went down, maybe, just maybe we all would not now be held hostage by these 2 states ! To blame it on the National DNC, who's rules were voted and accepted by FL and MI, is ridiculous.
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 03:45 PM
Well gee Pamb if only the DNC had not at first approved the Republian controlled state governmens bill then it would have help the always struggling Florida Democratic Party take a stand. It was not until the people of Florida had been sold on how great this new Primary would benifit Floridains did the DNC tell the state party they would be in trouble if they ok the 3 Republican draft of the bill. Lets see. have the DNC mad at you or all your states voters and lose even more Democrat ground in the state to the Repubicans..They chose the voters rights of there state.. RIGHT CHOICE EVERY SINGLE TIME!
CHECK OUT THIS SITE http://florida-delegates.com
Then talk to me about fair!
Valid votes should be taken in Michigan and Florida, in order for the delegates to be seated.
That has already happened, be honest, you just don't like the way they voted.
Posted by rjsnj on February 17, 2008 at 04:10 PM
rj,
The people of Iraq would have had to face this challenge when Saddam died anyway. We are just forstalling the resolution.
Training all their people how to fight each other is about as stupid as invading, IMHO.
Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 04:18 PM
-------------
YEAAAA SANDY
We, the rest of the country, are paying big time for this and we aren't whining.
I am trying to find the connection of (in particular Florida) this debacle and divide to the hand of the republican party in those states. I know it is there---just don't have solid documentation yet.
Don't buy into it, let it play out, and
VOTE DEM IN NOVEMBER
SandyH I would agree with you except for 3 reasons
1. the DNC approved the first time they got the bill
2. Florida government is controlled by the Republicans and messed with it after the DNC approved..not the Democrats
3. Voters rights are involved. I don't ever want a starting point where that is ok to mess with. Next it could be yours or mine. What if the DNC desided that low population states cost to much for a primary so the don't get to vote. After all you are saying it isn't real anyway and has not rights to it. Yet the primary is a seamless part of the election of our President. No one has ever won the general election who was not the nominee of the Democratic or Republican party. SO that process is THE process! Same voters rights apply then!
Let the Iraqi people sort out their differences. They are the only ones that can do that.
Posted by rjsnj on February 17, 2008 at 04:10 PM
Yes, they are the only ones that can. Of course, they wouldn't be fighting any dying by the thousands if the US hadn't gone in there and toppled their government (and Afghanistan, too). So, we have no obligation to do something to get them back on track? I'm thinking something diplomatic, not military, but something. To me, this has gotten progressively more complex as we've stayed there longer.
Posted by Hunt on February 17, 2008 at 04:22 PM
I suppose a Republican would see it that way. Who cares if it is a done fairly? You're into voter suppression tactics, too?
SandyH, I agree with your analysis...
There were some pretty dumb state officals risking damnation for their entire state membership by daring the DNC to call their bluff...but they went for it anyway. So let the voters of Florida and Michigan purge the nitwits who caused this controversy.
...to a point. The DNC Convention Rules also allow the possibility of the credentials committee seating the delegates (smoke-filled-rooms era) when they meet in June or July. The Clintons are clearly more connected with the establishment Democrats and have the edge in loading up the credentials committee with their people. That cannot be good for the party and shouldn't be done in secret. This morning on meet the press, Clinton supporter Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY), clearly sidestepped any solutions talk and it seems that the Clinton campaign is content to play the politics of the past by stalling until they can get their way.
However this gets resolved, it needs to be open and honest.
Posted by HARPO on February 17, 2008 at 04:30 PM
How do you explain that we have to hit 2 to get someone to speak to us in English?
Posted by andersonislanderforobama on February 17, 2008 at 03:03 PM
If Barack's campaign paid for another "real" election in Florida, would you go out and vote again, or are you too stubborn to do that because you already went to the great effort of voting once and you want that vote to count?
How arrogant to think that the election that took place in Florida was not "real" is it because Obama didn't win?
No body campaigned in Florida and therefore the votes were pure and should stand. If the votes weren't real why do you think Edwards decided to drop out of the race because he didn't get traction.
You can't have it both ways if you want Obama to be the nominee at any cost just say it and be done with it. No need to pretend there is a logic, fairness, pragmatism or rationale behind it
just blind ambition
the DNC rule suppressing the rights of the Florida and Michigan voters is the wrong and bad thing not the state parties or for sure the voters themselves! NO ONE NOT EVEN THE DNC SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO SUPPRESS A CITIZEN PART IN SELECTING OUR PRESIDENT! WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE! BECAUSE NO ONE CAN BECOME PRESIDENT WITH OUT BEING SELECTED FIRST AS THE PARTY CANDIDATE THEN THE PRIMARY VOTE IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE GENERAL ELECTION. WOULD IT BE RIGHT EVEN IF THE DNC HAD A RULE TO THROW OUT FLORIDAS AND MICHIGANS VOTES IN THE GENERAL ELECTION? SHOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO SAY ANY DEMOCRATS FROM FLORIDA OR MICHIGAN VOTES WON"T BE COUNTED IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?
Posted by HARPO on February 17, 2008 at 04:30 PM
Shouldn't you be out with your white-sheeted friends, celebrating all that is sick and evil in this administration?
These republican tactics to turn us against each other has worked in the past, and as evidenced by this site (even eliminating all the trolls who's whole marching orders right now are to come to these sites and "stir it up"), is working to some degree again.
To the people in those state:
Get rid of those who you feel have betrayed you so it doesn't happen again.
If you are true Dem----
know that they ALREADY DID IT
and stop perpetuating the anger
Don't buy into it anymore---let it go
if you replace those who made it happen, then you may be safe for next election. GENERAL
now: FOCUS YOUR ENERGY ON THE GENERAL AND LET'S CHANGE THIS COUNTRY AROUND. YEA
I gotta go
As usual I got some good information today
From the informed and active DEMS on this site
It didn’t use to be that way
In this day and age of less and less transparency in our government
It is amazing that we the people are more and more informed
GOD BLESS THE INTERNET AND PLEASE HELP PROTECT IT
Thanks for being here and keep up the good work.
Marilyn
It seems that for a navel officer, you quite the idiot.
Posted by HARPO on February 17, 2008 at 04:34 PM
Speaking of idiots, if I were a navel officer, I'd be in charge of your idiot friend, bellybutton. However, I am a naval officer. So, idiot, get a grip on the English language before you try to insult people.
It seems that for a navel officer, you quite the idiot.
Posted by HARPO on February 17, 2008 at 04:34 PM
Speaking of idiots, if I were a navel officer, I'd be in charge of your idiot friend, bellybutton. However, I am a naval officer. So, idiot, get a grip on the English language before you try to insult people.
Bill Bradly, Obama's campaign manager, just made the statement on Wolf's Sunday show. And said even though Hilliary won Massachusetts. That Kennedy, Kerry, and the Governor. Can still vote for obama, because they endorsed him before the Massachusetts primary was held, that they don't have to vote with the voters, of that state. However he said that any Super Delegate, that did not endorse Before the Maas. primary should vote with the voters of that state. This is the first i had heard of this, which brings a much clearer picture to mind, of why people endorse a candidate before a primary is held. That way they can go against the voters wishes, of any particular state.
Posted by marvin08 on February 17, 2008 at 11:31 AM
I would like the democratic voters on here and on other sites to consider a class action lawsuit to end the process of super-delegates to be started against the Democratic party. I think a case can be made that the super-delegates degrade and are intended to dilute the weight of our votes to allow the party to determine who gets the nomination of the party. I really do not care whether Hillary or Obama gets the nomination, both will be great democratic leadeers. However, the fact that super-delegates can overrule the voters is against the concept of democracy.
Posted by webcoder on February 17, 2008 at 11:50 AM
POP QUIZ!!!!
What's the difference between a "Super Delegate" & a "Pledged Delegate"?
A "Super Delegate" can vote at the Convention, for whomever they want!
A "Pledged Delegate" can vote at the Convention, for whomever they want!
Everyone has to remember that all 3 candidates were a choice on the ballot. That the only candidate to campaign there before the vote was Senator Obama running ads. Hillary showed up after for a victory speech.
If it wasn't a valid and fair election it would have been in favor of Senator Obama.
The election was held by the state at state polling stations and certified counted and recorded.. it was as valid and real as it gets!
IN THE BOOKS NOW SEAT THEM DNC!
so do we have an obligation to help put it back together? I think so, but I don't think troops are the answer.
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 04:06 PM
Yes, I agree. I've heard some Generals say that is going to take a political solution, and not a military solution. Bingo!
I think Sen. Biden had a good plan to divide the county up 3 ways. Why not? They have already divided the area on ethnic lines. Refugees can come back to their ethnic area. They can split the oil profits based on population. It seems simple, so why not?
Could it be that the first thing an independent democratic Shiite nation would do would be to vote for an Islamic Nation, ban women from voting, and vote America totally out of the region. Iran wins.
Maybe Saddam wasn't such a bad alternative after all... when you consider the consequences?
So where does that leave us? How about US troops out, and UN troops in? It could work, but I think the UN forces would rather have root canals and be stationed in the Arctic. Scratch that... they are not crazy. It's going to take real leadership and experienced international negotiators to bring everybody to the table. It will take compromising from all sides, including the US.
The only way I see that can work is to have a Balkans-type solution, UN troops to keep the borders, split the oil profits, and declare strong International sanctions should one of the new ethnic provinces side with Iran, or any other Nation. It's not perfect... but I just don't see any other way to protect our troops and budget.
Fl and MI broke the rules, which they agreed to ,with the full understanding of the consequences, and moved the primary date anyhow. It is time to either have a re-do, or for FL and MI to stop the complaining. The DNC has offered to pay for a re-do in both states, and the head of the MI and FL DNC have said no so far.
Here is an interesting article from the AP: New Clinton economic message has echoes of Edwards
I know that many Edwards supporters have gone to Obama, but I think Clinton's message has changed and she is gaining in the blue-collar domain that was once Edwards'. I am an Edwards supporter, and would love to see him on the ticket (even though he says he will not consider VP).
Edwards has met with both Clinton and Obama, but could Hillary's shift be an attempt to woo Edwards? Could we have a Clinton/Edwards ticket?
(THIS IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE WE GOT AT THE PRESENT TIME)
Posted by marvin08 on February 17, 2008 at 04:58 PM
_______________________________________________
NO marvin,this is the biggest issue to the pro-Hillary crowd. Florida and Michigan will both go Democratic this election, regardless of their state parties ineptness in handling the moving of their primary dates.
Speaking of idiots, if I were a NAVEL officer, I'd be in charge of your idiot friend, BELLYBUTTON.
Posted by margotb822 on Feb17, 2008 at 04:40 PM
Excuse me while I crack up... WWWWHHHHAAA HAHAHAHA!
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Good one.
Growingold the only difference between a super delegate and a pledged delegate is how they became a delegate and also on the pledged delegate the candidate they pledged for can review the list and if wants to can strike them from the list if they think they are not going to honor there pledge and seat and alternate. I think the same thing should apply to super delegates. Have alternates and if they have pledged then the candidats review this list to and if they feel they will not honor there pledge they can have them off the list and place a alternate in. This would keep this holding up the finger and seeing which way the wind blows for local favor and votes. They like us should vote for who they think is the best choice not the most popular and benifit to them.
Justaguy your statement that Florida will go Democrat is just not true. I think it had a real shot this year but not unless there votes are honored and there chosen delegates are seated. It has been a win for the Republicans now for years and years and if even just a small number of Democratic voters "set out" or those independent and Republicans who would have voted for the Democratic candidate now vote McCain the state is lost and if we lose the state we could see McCain in the Whitehouse. Yep its that important! Oh gee were only talking about the right to vote here.. no biggie
The storm has passed and I see we are still discussing Fl/Mi. I have been labeled a troll for expressing my views but I see others are still angry over this issue. I agree with marvin that this is the biggest issue facing our party and if it is not fixed and SOON you will see a mass exodus from the Democratic party in these states. Many of yall say we broke the rules and should suffer the consequences and I say as a Florida Democrat that all of us will suffer the consequences as many Floridians feel as I do and will change from Democrat to Independant after this election. Many will vote for McCain instead of Obama because he will not allow us to be seated. Please Please Please get your heads out your ass and fix this before its too late and irrepairable harm has been done to Fl/Mi Democrates.
I think Sen. Biden had a good plan to divide the county up 3 ways. Why not? They have already divided the area on ethnic lines. Refugees can come back to their ethnic area. They can split the oil profits based on population. It seems simple, so why not?
Posted by Big_Yellow_Dog on February 17, 2008 at 04:57 PM
I also wonder why we are fighting to enforce artificial borders. I mean, Europe drew the middle eastern borders without regard for history, ethnicity or culture. Look at the war the Europe has fought over cultural and ethnic boundaries. They eventually worked it out, but among themselves, not with America's help. So, maybe we need to look at an option that actually respects the culture and ethnicity of the people that live in the region.
marvin, give it up. Rules are rules, all involved KNEW the rules, and broke the RULES anyhow. It would not make a bit of difference if Obama won or not because the vote was INVALID. He wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Why is a do-over a problem for pro-Clinton people? Remeber this too, Hillary did NOT protest when she signed the early state pledge ,which told her that the delegates would NOT count if they moved up their primary date. Why should the rules not count marvin?
That's the way they spelled it at Pencilfield HS.
Posted by HARPO on February 17, 2008 at 05:11 PM
And where is that? Is that the charter school you went to?
Now the Clinton camp says, if you live in one of those states, you really don't matter that much...
Posted by LaSt on February 16, 2008 at 06:04 PM
Do you really believe the things you write, or are you just grasping for ways to make Obama look like the better choice? Lying about Clinton's thoughts is not that good of a tactic.
Your time would be better spent in finding something, ANYTHING, that would show that Obama has accomplished anything other than doing the bidding for the insurance and nuke industries in the Illinois State Senate.
Here's a project for you: Find some Obama quotes, before the last couple of months, where he went after Republican's policy for the Nation's problems. You might also show how he is more progressive on ANY issue compared to Hillary.
Many of yall say we broke the rules and should suffer the consequences and I say as a Florida Democrat that all of us will suffer the consequences as many Floridians feel as I do and will change from Democrat to Independant after this election. Many will vote for McCain instead of Obama because he will not allow us to be seated. Please Please Please get your heads out your ass and fix this before its too late and irrepairable harm has been done to Fl/Mi Democrates.
Posted by davidpga on February 17, 2008 at 05:12 PM
_________________________________________________
Great another SEAT OUR DELEGATES OR WE VOTE FOR MCCAIN THREAT. Look david, your problem is with YOUR STATE party, not the DNC or anyone else for that matter. Kick them out of office, make their lives hell, just stop with ,the rules which we agreed to should be changed because our candidate won crap. It is transparent. Hillary agreed with the DNC's ruling and did not protest it when it happened ,so why the change of heart now? Oh yeah, because she thought she would have the whole thing wrapped up by super Tuesday but that is NOT the case now. She is down and soon to be out IMO. WHY DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A RE-DO? Your votes would count and the rules would NOT be broken.
I'm so sick of this Florida, Michigan thing.
Posted by marvin08 on February 17, 2008 at 04:47 PM
Marvin,
Many here will be quick to tell you "Florida & Michigan" broke the rules, so they should "deal with it". Or the other favorite, don't blame the DNC, the people of Florida should have spoken out against "their leaders".
Before the vote, I was as active as anyone in the party to try and convince party leaders here in Florida, and also at the national level to reconsider their entrenched positions. They didn't, and crying over the spilled milk that was the Florida Presidential Preference Primary, is not productive. I don't care if it's the FDP, the DNC, Senator Clinton or Senator Obama. They all made this bed. They all share responsibility to fix the immediate problem.
1,700,000 Florida Democrats went to the polls, a record. They seem to disagree with both the DNC and the FDP. Voters have a way of speaking their minds, no matter what the pundants have to say.
I guess folks from Michigan & Florida, disagree with party leaders. I guess folks from Michigan and Florida, are tired of waiting for Iowa and New Hampshire to go first. I keep on hearing people saying "what the people of Florida and Michigan" should think. Their "behavior is childish". And, "it their own fault for not whacking their states elected officials over the knuckles, for violating the DNC's rules.
But, the people of Florida did speak. Inspite of the threat of taxation without representation, the voters of Florida spoke. And they spoke loudly. It seems most of the comments I read on the subject, are driven by protecting the position of candidate the author supports. As opposed to the Party they should be supporting.
By the way, the DNC, could have looked down the road, just like the rest of us, and seen the potential for disaster. The DNC, could have chose to penalize the States, with a partial decrease of the delegations, by 50%. Averting this disaster. They didn't. Everybody is to blame here.
Mind you, now that the primaries in these states are behind us. It's up to the candidates and our party leaders to mold a solution, that will not inflame the situation further.
If Senators Clinton and Obama can't work this one out, how do they expect up to believe they will be capable of working out the bigger problems that face this nation?
That's the view from the cheap seats,
Steve
So, maybe we need to look at an option that actually respects the culture and ethnicity of the people that live in the region?
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 05:12 PM
Bingo! WOW! What a novel idea. Well said!
I wonder why more people aren't talking about the problems caused by the artificial borders that were set not that long ago, compared to the region's history? In fact, the first "Gulf War" was caused because the borders were set to deny Iraq access to the Gulf. Maybe it wouldn't be that difficult to divide the area, and respect all local groups with fair and logical borders? I bet it would go a long way to restoring mutual respect and International Law.
Right on Steve, and Justaguy its not a threat its reality. That is exactly what is going to happen and not by just me but by the thousands or even the tens of thousands
Good Afternoon, ALL!
Just a quick post & run while the Daytona 500 finishes, then it's out for something to eat.
BREAKING NEWS!-->>>
USDA recalls 143 million pounds of frozen beef
Officials said it was the largest beef recall in the United States, surpassing a 1999 ban of 35 million pounds of ready-to-eat meats. The amount of beef -- 143 million pounds -- is roughly enough for two hamburgers for each man, woman and child in the United States.
Most of it went to fast food joints and SCHOOL LUNCH PROGRAMS!
Heck of a job, Chimpy!
BBL
Posted by HARPO on February 17, 2008 at 05:21 PM
Oh, you're trying to be a crazy stalker and pretend you know where I went to high school. Well, that wasn't it. You'd better keep trying.
marvin unlike you, I AM A DEMOCRAT. Democrats stand for the rules and laws, Democrats are for a level playing field, Democrats don't write the rules after the game is played. Those kind of things are what the right loves to do, see Scooter Libby. Why don't you answer my question as to why FL and MI won't allow the DNC to pay for do over? What is your problem with that? And I have said many times that I will vote for ,and even campaign for Hillary should she WIN, not steal, the nomination. Whereas you say you will vote for MCCain if you don't get your way. WHO IS THE REAL DEMOCRAT?
Why should the rules not count marvin?
Posted by justaguy on February 17, 2008 at 05:14 PM
Justaguy,
I just want to get this straight. Senator Obama's supports seem to be against "Super Delegates" deciding the outcome of the nomination. Rules that where created just to deal with the very situation we're in.
But his supporters are for not breaking the DNC's rules on Florida & Michigan.
Seems to be hypocritical to me. This rule should be broken, this one shouldn't be?
How about a little consistancy?
Steve
Then talk to me about fair!
Posted by gemstone on February 17, 2008 at 04:22 PM
hmmmmmm, I wonder every day, as i see these FL peeps come in complaining , just how they would view this all, should it have been....Oh, maybe New York, or PA or CA who went ahead, and FL kept to the schedule they had voted on last year.!
do you REALLY think, coming into the DNC blog, where Howard Dean and the leaders never cast a glance, is going to make your delegates and votes count? You sure are using up a lot of negative energy for Nothing! And threatening us, here, that you will vote for McCain if you don't get your way really pretty silly, don't you think? You would vindictively vote for another 4/8 years of Republican rule, destruction of our country, our rights, our Constitution, world image, a potential WW III with Iran, because you are pissed at DNC? That says it all, bud.
Posted by davidpga on February 17, 2008 at 05:33 PM
David,
If you care about America...You must vote for a Democrat, no matter who wins the nomination.
It's that simple
Steve
Steve, if you looked into what the Obama people are saying it is the MOST Democratic thing. All they have ever said was, if a candidate was ahead in the delegates, number of states won, and the popular vote, the superdelegates should NOT be able to change the will of the people. They have never called for the ending of the superdelegates regardless of what you say.
Posted by Big_Yellow_Dog on February 17, 2008 at 05:30 PM
I know that we can't be the only people thinking this. But I'm sure this was never an option for W. It involves way too much diplomacy. We're obviously stuck in a rut with Iraq so it will take something innovative to get us out and to help the region.
Look at the UAE. What used to be tribal sheikdoms are now united states. It is something that could be used as a model for a change.
Little Mermaid.
Posted by HARPO on February 17, 2008 at 05:21 PM
Now you think she's totally dreamy too?
Is she like Daryl Hannah in "Splash?"
It's perfect... you play John Candy's Freddie:
Freddie: Yeah? Well, that's a crock. It doesn't work that way. Look, do you realize how happy you were with her? That is, of course, when you weren't driving yourself crazy. Every day? Come on. Some people will never BE that happy. I'LL never be that happy. What am I talking to you for? You don't know anything.
How much does the RNC pay you blogger to give your two cents on TPM and other Democratic blogs?
All they have ever said was, if a candidate was ahead in the delegates, number of states won, and the popular vote, the superdelegates should NOT be able to change the will of the people.
Posted by justaguy on February 17, 2008 at 05:40
PM
Justaguy,
Like I said, the rules say a "Super Delegate is not bond to any candidate, no matter what. Those are the rules. Why are you advocating that "Super Delegates" be not be able to change the will of the people. But that's exactly what they were created to do. It's another rule I strongly disagree with, but it's a rule all the same.
If you want to hold up you opinion on following the rules, be prepared to follow them all.
Otherwise you opinion will appear to be partisan.
Steve
Then i don't know what to say, except your just not thinking clearly. (THIS IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE WE GOT AT THE PRESENT TIME)
Posted by marvin08 on February 17, 2008 at 04:58 PM
marvin08,
I understand you frustration. I'm from Missouri. We've screwed up since 1996.
There are so many biggest issues in this country right now. But Florida always seems to have bigger problems the rest of the states. I wonder why that is?
You approved butterfly ballots when you know they can confuse the majority of your older voters. The majority of your state Democratic officials went along with a Republian primary plan and actually bragged about it to the national audience. You sanction that primary when you knew it would not count...leaving no other way for the DNC to help you.
The problem is not the rest of the states. It's your state. You need to deal with it. If the Republicans are in control, work hard to get rid of them...and all of the Republican Lite Democrats who play into their hands constantly.
My state has been under the thumb of the Republicans for some time now, too. But we haven't complained to the DNC for our failed opportunities or lost chances. Take all that progressive energy that you say is growing in your state and re-build your party from the bottom.
Mistakes happen. You can't always expect others to fix them for you. Second chances are so few in life. Learn from this and create something better than just the next controversy.
Look at Connecticut. They're stuck with Lieberman for another four years even though some broke faith with Democratic voters. Prominent Democrats from other states actually campaigned against the Democratic nominee.
No one there held the DNC responsible. They licked their wounds and are now planning for a big Democratic victory in November and the final defeat of Lieberman in 2012.
It can happen in Florida, too; but not if others are always doing it for you.
When you look at Obama's rhetoric, it all falls to pieces against McCain. If voters want someone who will work with the other side, McCain has proved that he can do it. Not Obama. His experience was selling out in the lowly State Senate. Like McCain, Clinton has worked with Republicans. I wonder when people are going to think about and research Obama's rhetoric?
==================================
This is worth repeating...
To get Universal Healthcare for ALL, we need Hillary as the President and 62 Senators and 300 representatives in the Congress. BHO's Plan is partial, which will NOT get an affordable UHC for ALL. She will reduce the cost by 50% not the 5% that BHO talks about. In all, BHO is the candidate of the FAR LEFT of the Dems, who cannot win the General Election against vastly experienced McCain. Dems foolishly follow a NON-Electable candidate BHO. If FL and MI are counted, and they should be seated, Hillary is leading as of now. She has good chances of winning TX, OH, PA. The problem is Big Media (corporate funded) is foolishly giving ill-earned coverage to BHO. They want BHO to be nominated, and then lose to McCAin. They are all against Clintons, period.
Posted by Yama on February 17, 2008 at 12:42 AM
steve, your are wrong on this. The superdelegates were created to decide, if the voters did NOT provide a clear winner ,then they would step in and move the process alone. If a candidate is ahead in states won, popular vote and delegate count, that is a CLEAR winner and the superdelegates should NOT counter that. What about a do over is that ok?
Look at the UAE. What used to be tribal sheikdoms are now united states. It is something that could be used as a model for a change.
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 05:42 PM
That's a good point. But I don't think we need another UAE buying up American companies and infrastructure. :-/ Yikes... our Middle East policy really does need some work.
Look at Connecticut. They're stuck with Lieberman for another four years even though some broke faith with Democratic voters. Prominent Democrats from other states actually campaigned against the Democratic nominee.
No one there held the DNC responsible. They licked their wounds and are now planning for a big Democratic victory in November and the final defeat of Lieberman in 2012.
It can happen in Florida, too; but not if others are always doing it for you.
Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 05:49 PM
Sandy,
I'm sure Ned Lamont would disagree with your statement.
Steve
Marvin, just becuase you can't debate me with reason is no reason to call me a troll or whatever. I am a DEMOCRAT who has said I will support our nominee whomever they may be. You on the other hand have said if Hillary doesn't win you will vote for McCain.
steve, your are wrong on this. The superdelegates were created to decide, if the voters did NOT provide a clear winner ,then they would step in and move the process alone. If a candidate is ahead in states won, popular vote and delegate count, that is a CLEAR winner and the superdelegates should NOT counter that. What about a do over is that ok?
Posted by justaguy on February 17, 2008 at 05:55 PM
Justaguy,
Your probably to young to realize this, but, Super Delegates were created by the PARTY, as a result Senator George McGovern's failed bid for the Presidency, way back in 1972. The party final agreed to create the Super Delegate, after the 1980 election. The reason was to make sure that if an Upstart Democratic Candidate starts to move the party and the rank and file, in a direction that party leaders felt was weak. They'd be able to alter, any popular ground swell of support of a party outsider.
That's the facts, and the "rules" by the way,
Steve
Posted by Big_Yellow_Dog on February 17, 2008 at 05:57 PM
I think the UAE is such an interesting place. I loved Dubai and hope I have a chance to go back. It is very modern, but obviously traditional. Did you know that something like 20% of the world's construction cranes are in the UAE. The skyline is more cranes than buildings. And you can "buy" a house there (99 year lease), so many Europeans buy winter houses there and vacation from October to March. It is a place where luxury is cheap (and you can ski indoors!).
There is much more tradition outside of the cities, but it is a moderate place that welcomes foreigners. Definitely not a bad thing.
What about a do over is that ok?
Posted by justaguy on February 17, 2008 at 05:55 PM
Justaguy,
Sure! Are you going to pay for it?
Steve
No Steve, Ned lamont did NOT hold the DNC responsible. In fact, I spoke the DNC would have personally LOVED to have gotten rid of Lieberman and had a true Progressive get the job.
The problem is not the rest of the states. It's your state. You need to deal with it. If the Republicans are in control, work hard to get rid of them...and all of the Republican Lite Democrats who play into their hands constantly.
Sandy, This is how I feel too. All of the Democrats in the State of FL, should be out there pounding the pavements, phone banking, door to door, getting on a candidate for ANY office's campaign and working their tail off, to once and for all turn this state Blue. You know, there are a LOT of elderly people in the state of FL. There are not all in the top 1% of income. SOMEBODY has to reach out to these un-informed voters and rally them to the party that truly helps them. Educate them on what is happening to their grandkid's futures! WORK, people, WORK.
I worked my ass off for Ned Lamont, and the night of the Primary, when Lieberman got kicked to the curb, I could not get the smile off my face for days!
Here Ye, Here Ye
FLORIDA try focusing on the solution
You have a few hardworking Democrate citizens that have been trying hard to motivate you since 2000 to do something about your election frauds.
If you are one of them, let me take a moment to thank you and say how bad I feel for your situation.
I also believe that if you are one of the ones who have been working to prevent this, you probably aren’t whining here on this site.
If you are not one of them-----then YOU ARE responsible
What have you been doing to make sure you are represented and your vote is protected since 2000????
Did you scream and yell in 2000 and then put your head in the sand, or go sailing, and hope that it would change when the republicans clearly had a strangle hold on your representatives who were hired to make sure your vote counted???? Did you trust that your vote was protected when you live in a republican bush/rove state? And it was clearly demonstrated that they would pull any underhanded thing they could to count you out?
Here in my state, when Florida and Michigan etc were all wanting to move their primaries up, NOT TO BE OUT DONE, OUR DEMOCRATIC REPS WERE MAKING SOUNDS OF MOVING OURS UP TOO. When we found out the consequences for breaking a signed agreement, WE THE PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA SAID NO AND IF YOU GO AGAINST OUR WISHES, YOU WILL BE REPLACED.
WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES have all suffered and paid HUGE prices for the fact that the DEMS IN FLORIDA won’t go to work and install democratic representative in the state that will protect them.
WAKE UP if your representatives are not laying the groundwork that prevents you from being disenfranchised in ANY way, GET SOME WHO WILL. If your democratic representatives are not protecting your vote, there is only ONE REASON-------PALMS ARE BEING GREASED, and we who can’t get rid of your bad reps. Are paying the price along with you.
Instead of whining, take some responsibility for your part in this. You certainly knew there was a problem in 2000, 2002, 2004 etc
If I tell my child :
“if you break this rule you can’t have your cookie after school
And then my child breaks the rule anyway
Should his response be “YOU HAVE TO GIVE ME MY COOKIE BECAUSE IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FEED ME”????????????????
I WITNESSED this morning on meet the press a
DOCUMENT SIGNED BY HILARY CLINTON THAT AGREED WITH THE RULE AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF BREAKING THAT RULE. IT SAID CLEARLY, IF A PRIMARY OF A STATE WAS MOVED, THE STATE WOULD LOOSE IT’S DELEGATES (NOT VOTES. SHE SIGNED IT!!!!!!!!!!
I would hope to think that if you REALLY BELIEVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES, you would be spending your time making sure that everything is transparent and Hillary and Barack are leaders who absolutely abides by the laws/rules.
Now, quit the DIVISIVE BANTER, unless you are a troll, and start helping the rest of us get a DEMOCRATE IN THE WHITE HOUSE IN NOVEMBER
You can have your vote (cookie) next time if you go to work and earn it.
PLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEE
It is about the American right to vote in the seamless process of selecting our President.Posted by gemstone on February 17, 2008 at 03:35 PM
You do realize of course that there is no right of the average American citizen to vote for President, right?
United States Constitution Article II [The Presidency] Section 1. [Election, Installation, Removal]
The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected, as follows:
Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector.
The electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves. And they shall make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each; which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates, and the votes shall then be counted. The person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President; and if no person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list the said House shall in like manner choose the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by States, the representation from each state having one vote; A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. In every case, after the choice of the President, the person having the greatest number of votes of the electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them by ballot the Vice President.
The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the day on which they shall give their votes; which day shall be the same throughout the United States.
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.
In case of the removal of the President from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal, death, resignation or inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what officer shall then act as President, and such officer shall act accordingly, until the disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.
The President shall, at stated times, receive for his services, a compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that period any other emolument from the United States, or any of them.
Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Next time you want to talk about rights, make sure the right of which you speak actually belongs to the PEOPLE. And don't try pulling the ninth amendment out...it's pretty clear the election of the president was a right given to the state governments.
Oh, and "seamless"? Give me a break. What country...excuse me, what UNIVERSE do YOU inhabit?
Posted by SandyH on February 17, 2008 at 04:29 PM
"I suppose a Republican would see it that way. Who cares if it is a done fairly? You're into voter suppression tactics, too?"
************************************************
You have rocks in your head if you think that kind of rhetoric will fly with me. I have never voted for a Republican in my life, but I'll bet you can not say that. Saying the delegates should be seated is not suppression tactics it is the right thing to do. When the our highest court decided to overlook how our people voted (Gore vs Bush)that was voter suppression. You seem to approve of that type of tactic when you start hurling insults at true Democrats that believe each persons vote should count. You should be ashamed.
Anyone But The Black Man! Really?
I guess I got your attention with the title of this blog post. The "anyone but the black man." That isn't my sentiment at all. That is where the political hacks in both political parties are and working overtime to see takes place. I actually am capable of rational thinking. I can get by the rock star status of all of the wood-be kings.
I will go ahead and tell on myself now. I started paying attention to Barrack Obama the very month he made public his intention to seek the democratic nomination for the presidency of the United States. Instead of just listening to all of the talking heads I looked at what Barrack had to say.
I also have an advanced education and as such I am more than capable of critical thinking. An advanced education in my case means I am educated at a level, which puts me in the top 1% of the people in the United States.
I know a lot of people who think people with advanced educations are smug or anal-retentive. I am certainly not pretentious. I am actually considered by many people to be rude crude and uncouth. I think too many people are bull shit artist and it ends there.
Hillary Clinton or the Clintons in general are two of the most corrupt people in modern politics. They are both outright liars about anything and everything. Bill Clinton sold out to the Republicans and that produced NAFTA. NAFTA along with a number of things that have come out of congress have all but destroyed this country. The industrial base has been sold off. A piece at a time
Bill Clinton and George Bush and a Republican controlled congress piece meal removed all of the checks and balances put in place by Franklin Roosevelt after the depression of the 1930's. The laws were put in place to protect the people. That is why you have the banking mess you have today. Hillary has been in the senate most of the time. What did she do with all of her experience and connections to keep this from happening? The Clintons did nothing because they are bought and paid for by the people who used the loose banking laws and made million from a lack of oversight.
Hillary Clinton and a healthcare plan, It is a joke again because the problem lays with the fact that Hillary is bought and paid for by the same people who would be financially affected by a national healthcare plan.
A workable national healthcare plan means that there will be some form of price controls and limitations on some services. Like it or not there will have to be limitations on what can and will be spent to prolong a human life. And, so you know when there is any money-involved people will lie, cheat and steal to protect their personal financial interest.
As long as I am on the subject of would-be kings, there is John McCain. His statement that we will stay in Iraq for 100 years if necessary is the babble of an idiot. The first thing is the public was lied to no less then ten times of why we went to war in Iraq. In case after five years you haven't figured it all out, Iraq has the eighth largest crude oil reserves in the world. It is about the money and controlling the fossil fuel.
In case you lack critical thinking skills any nation or state that has to resort to force and violence against other nations and people to achieve the goals of that nation is a failed state no matter what else it does as it relates to the world community.
Real leadership does not lie cheat and steal to gain control over assets in one part of the world for it's financial benefit and then give aid in another part of the world to cover up what it is engaged in.
Real leadership does not make trade agreements that result in the destruction of the industrial base in it's own country for the benefit of the financial elite.
Taxes are necessary for any nation, but a tax system that favors one class of citizens over another is simply a vehicle that at some point leads to some type of class warfare. We have reached a point in this country where we are back where we started over two hundred years ago. Taxation without representation is where we are today.
Rudy Giuliana the former New York mayor said we needed to return to the one page tax return. The idea of returning to updated version 1913 tax return does make sense and has a great deal of appeal. You can obtain a copy of the original return at http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/1913.pdf. You have to understand that if you want things to change you cannot ask. You have to tell your elected officials that things will change. You have to demand change.
That is what Barrack Obama has said for the past ten months. It is time for major change in this country and we have to reach out across the nation and around the world and demand change for the benefit of everyone not just the financial elite
We really do not have to act as the world's policemen. We really do not need to build new aircraft carriers every three to five years to honor a laundry list of recent bad presidents.
There are those involved in commerce that feel government regulations are not necessary. If you could depend on people to exhibit ethics and integrity that would be the case there would no government regulation needed to protect us. That is not the case the climate is changing regardless of what Dick Cheney says. It may not affect you today but it most certainly may affect you depending on your current age and will most certainly affect your children if immediate steps are not taken to change the way industry worldwide is operated.
The best government is a government, which in reality does nothing to control its citizens. That is an ideal and will not occur in this country. We need rules and regulations to protect us from each other. What we do not need is a government that we need to be protected from and that is where we are today.
We actually need our own version of the Chinese model citizen's law as our society and our government are concerned. The Chinese law makes it punishable by death for anyone elected or appointed to public office that violates the trust associated with that public office. That is what we need now today in the United States.
Our government is out of control; the way the business of government is done is now so corrupt that nothing gets done. There is too much money being given to the two main political parties for us to get anything done in congress that is for the benefit of all of the people.
Our persons are filled to overflowing with people who in many cases are there because they are disenfranchised and can no longer even maintain a basic standard of living. We have come to a very sad state when people would rather be locked up in prison than a part of society. We are in a sad state of affairs when the members of our legislative branch of government make nearly four times the median income in America. In case you do not know the median income in the US is $48,000 a year and your congressional representatives make nearly $160,000 a year plus all the graft money from lobbyist they can stuff in their pockets.
The original question, "Anyone But The Nigger?" Well no because the multiracial man Barrack Obama does want to change America, and he is not bought and paid for by lobbyist. So take this opportunity to think about what I have written and act like you have minimal intelligence.
The Democratic National Committee, the Republican National Committee and Hillary Clinton and the lobbyist who have bought and paid for her are all working overtime to make sure Barrack Obama does not become the next US President. That should tell you something very important.
The Real Axis Of Evil
George W. Bush
Dick Cheney
Bill Clinton
Hillary Clinton
Nancy Pelosi
Harry Reid
They all have several traits in common that makes them truely the axis of evil as far as this nation is concerned. They are all bought and paid for by special interest including foreign sovereign governments. They all have no ethic, or integrity of any type. Any of them would stand in front of the 356,000,000 people in this country and lie outright with no mental reservation of any type.
They are destroying this nation not the Barrack Obama or Mike Huckabee and for that matter even John McCain.
It has to change and the only thing you have to decide is if you are serious about change or you want SSDD and a destroyed nation because that is what it has come to. Hillary bought and paid for just like the DNC is and the RNC is. That is why they are unhappy with Mc Cain. You people at both parties do not get it.
I worked my ass off for Ned Lamont, and the night of the Primary, when Lieberman got kicked to the curb, I could not get the smile off my face for days!
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 06:08 PM
Pam,
Inspite of the heroic efforts of local Democrats like yourself, Lamont complained bitterly by the lack of funds he received from the DNC. If you want me to dig up the quote, I will.
Let me start with one of your own comments, from 2006:
HI FOS,
The DCCC is pushing Representatives, not Senators, but they would not have put Lamont on any fund raising lists anyways. The Dems are being stingy with money for Lamont because, #1- they really don't care if Lieberman wins, he has said he will still vote with them, and #2- they figure Ned will just keep throwing in his own money.
Ned refused a $5000 check yesterday from a Union which endorsed him. He is refusing any PAC money, other than Dem Leadership PACs like Hillary who just gave him some.
Ned will not be beholden to any Lobbyists or groups for votes in the future. He is depending on grassroots support. (wait till we get my next credit card bill! Yikes!)
Posted by PamB on August 24, 2006 at 08:24 AM
The fact, and you know it, is Ned Lamont requested funds from the DNC, and they didn't respond.
Pah lease!
Posted by GregL on February 17, 2008 at 06:12 PM
-----------------
THANK YOU that needed posted
too much stating "what I want you to believe"
AS A FACTUAL STATMENT
are we really borrowing the repubs. way of persuation?
Hunt,
fyi, SandyH is a longtime blogger here, and I can attest she is a True Blue Democrat. She has worked in various manners for the Democrats, and is as appalled at the Election fraud and voting manipulation that has gone on in the past.
Do not say she is not a true Democrat !
WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES have all suffered and paid HUGE prices for the fact that the DEMS IN FLORIDA won’t go to work and install democratic representative in the state that will protect them.
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 06:10 PM
Serenity,
You'd never had made a statement like that if you understood the demographics that are Florida.
Most of the Democratic Population of the state are located in Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties. Controlling the State Legislature, unfortunately, is not reality. Electing Democrats to State Wide and National Office is.
Trust me on this,
Steve
If what you are saying is true, she is letting her choice of candidate cloud her vision. It is a poor choice to call me a Republican.
sorry marvin, you have not said you would vote for MCCain, it was davidpga, my bad. But what do you think about a re-do which the DNC has already said they would pay for?
Bummer, no peace, if you don't please.
Voters turned off in FL and MI, or at least they are being misdirected/told to do so? Leaders show some resolve, please.
Clinton and Obama, out of your campaign coffers, cough up returned-postage ballots to be sent out to all Democratic voters in these states. Florida and Michigan volunteers can count and display results for the state parties to use for delegates.
DNC, it behooves you to not stand in the way of voters, help with the clarity and justness. And fix these freakin rules that left the Democratic Party somewhat vulnerable.
There is something fishy and funky about this scenerio, just swim on past with an equitable quick solution, and get on with the program.
Posted by margotb822 on Feb 17, 2008 at 06:05 PM
I had no idea. I did see the indoor ski place... but I didn't think that the world needs that kind of wasteful energy usage. Give me real Nature. Just to be fair... I think the same thing about gold courses in the desert.
I'm pretty concerned about how these foreign countries are buying up American infrastructure, and bidding to take over some of our vital sectors, like port security. I mean "out sourcing" some things is just not a good idea. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have a capable Coast Guard.
I suppose I was wrong to think that it's another country that imports foreign, non-Muslim woman as cheap labor because they consider them less than human, and can treat them anyway they want. I'm not a fan of the patriarchy (misogyny) that goes on in the region. I suppose I shouldn't judge one country by others in the region.
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 06:10 PM
Serenity,
Your comments are almost offensive. The 1,700,000 democrats that voted in the January 29th primary, did nothing other than express an opinion, by voting. The were not consulted by Karen Thurman, Bill Nelson, Howard Dean or any other party leaders.
I'm not disputing the rules, or the fact that the issue must be resolved by the candidates themselves.
However, the everyday democrats in Florida, hearing your lack of compassion, should be offended.
The rules also say, GWB got elected POTUS. Does that mean that you don't have a right to be angry, even though it's not directly your fault.
To say to the average Floridian "Now, quit the DIVISIVE BANTER", is not only NOT the solution, its divisive banter.
That's the view from the Cheap Seats,
Steve
DNC has already said they would pay for?
Posted by justaguy on February 17, 2008 at 06:31 PM
Justaguy,
The DNC offered to print 800,000 ballots up, that's it. That isn't even a drop in the bucket. And more than twice that many voters cast a ballot.
Steve
Posted by Growingold on February 17, 2008 at 06:28 PM
---------------
I hope I didn't say state rep
If I did, I meant Democratic reps
Posted by Growingold on February 17, 2008 at 06:28 PM
---------------
found it here is what I said
"WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES have all suffered and paid HUGE prices for the fact that the DEMS IN FLORIDA won’t go to work and install democratic representative in the state that will protect them.
democratic representative
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 07:06 PM
Serenity,
Although "Democratic Representative" is kind of an ambigious phrase, semantics are not the point of my comment.
Your post began with,
Here Ye, Here Ye
FLORIDA try focusing on the solution
And the rest of you comment failed to suggest any solutions, it only placed blame. It was filled with contempt for Florida Voters. That is Not A Solution, as your comment suggest Floridians need to focus on. It as divisive as any other comment I've seen posted.
Steve
Steve, it was the STATE Democrats who kept backing Lieberman, not the DNC. You will not find Lamont nor Me complaining about DNC withholding funds! PUL EEZE is right !
They ARE two different entities you know. Nancy DiNardo head of CT Democratic Party backed Lieberman even after he turned Independent, and when he won the position of Senator again, showed up at his Victory party gushing all over him. My comment had to do with DCCC/DSCC !
I LIVE in CT. I fought that fight. I KNOW what went on.
WHY do you always have to find something to argue with me about? I have been leaving you alone, just do the same, ok?
Posted by Growingold on February 17, 2008 at 06:28 PM
----------
Please re-read my post I was very clear through out that they live in a corrupt republican run state and that they were going to have to demand that their Democratic Representatives are WORKING HARD to protect their vote.
The blue states that are turning purple have not happened by accident.
It requires work, usually by a few, and then the rest whine along the way
I am so tired of people being “soft gloved” when they won’t take responsibility for their part (inaction or action) in a situation that they want to point their fingers and play victim.
I get particulary peeved when it affects sooo many that have to suffer for it
If we just keep saying ooooo poor you, that isn’t fair, (and it isn’t fair), then this will be a recurring event, with maybe different circumstances over and over again.
SOLUTIONS OVER AND OVER
REPLACE THE DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVES THAT WERE PUT THEIR TO PROTECT YOU DEMOCRATS AND ARENT DOING THEIR JOB
Absolutely no contempt
(sorry if it came across that wayt
hope you will re-read)
Just accountability which I also want from my government and will work to replace the ones that won't give me that.
o.k. This is NOT divisive
and I think it is what I said
Floridians, UNITE and focus on the solution
Replace the Democratic Representatives that have been hired to protect your vote. They clearly are not doing their job.
growing old
I always look forward to your posts and so respect your opinion.
If my post came across as you say, there has to be something to it and I will revisit my methods/thoughts
I have just posted so much (seems like hours), trying to explain the need to not let this divide us that I had to try to go at it a different way.
If I offended you I am truly sorry
WHY do you always have to find something to argue with me about? I have been leaving you alone, just do the same, ok?
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 07:18 PM
Pam,
Leave you alone? That's the biggest crock of shist! My original comment was not made to you.
It was you that felt compelled to suggest, my comment about Ned Lamont, was not true. When it was the absolute truth.
It was you that jumped into a debate that I was having, basically callling me a liar!
Now when I respond, showing "in your own words", the hypocracy of YOUR statement, you ask me to leave you alone.
That's real phuking nerve.
You should stick to putting up the opinions of others, you do that very well.
That's the view of anyone that just read your crap,
Steve
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 07:29 PM
Serenity,
If you read my comment, you'll see, advocate a solution agreeable to both candidates. That's the point I made. I've been preaching unity, since I got here. I respect most of your comments as well.
I just ask that people try to embrace the democrats of Florida. And not lecture them. Tell them you understand their frustration, and that we'll work together to make sure this doesn't happen again.
We be so cool, my sister.
Steve
Now when I respond, showing "in your own words", the hypocracy of YOUR statement, you ask me to leave you alone.
I hate to embarass you again, but this is what you felt COMPULSED to go back and dig up from a year and a half ago, in order to try and argue with my statement,
The DCCC is pushing Representatives, not Senators, but they would not have put Lamont on any fund raising lists anyways.
I was talking here about DCCC !! And DSCC. NO WHERE will you find DNC
You know, kiddo, sometimes you make yourself look like a real asshole!
Grow up, will you?
Steve
you said
Tell them you understand their frustration, and that we'll work together to make sure this doesn't happen again.
-------------
We can't do it for them.
they have to be motivated to do it for themselves
and I too have stated dozens of times my sorrow over their continued disinfranchizement
Steve,
Don't you think the Dems all across the nation would have done it for "them" if we could?
Look what it has cost us?
I am out of here for the night, Dems.
Not much sense trying to find any unity of purpose here tonight.
Grow up, will you?
Posted by PamB on February 17, 2008 at 07:40 PM
Pam,
I thought you wanted to be left alone! I guess not. So, here's what Sandy said, TO ME!
"No one there held the DNC responsible. They licked their wounds and are now planning for a big Democratic victory in November and the final defeat of Lieberman in 2012."
I responded that Ned Lamont would probably disagree.
It's an honest statement, that is backed up, by the DNC's failure to give him the money he asked for.
Ned Lamont said as much to Tim Russert. This isn't in question. Even though most of us don't live in CT. The race between Lamont and Lieberman was national news. Go ahead, try and tell all these good Democrats it's not. They all know it's true.
However, Sandy's comment and mine, were concerning the DNC. And no matter how you spin it. It's true.
Next time you decide to jump in and suggest, I'm lying about something. You better come better prepared than this.
Next time you decide to jump in and suggest, I'm a liar, and then say, "leave me alone". I will again point our your hypocracy.
You don't have to like it, just deal with it!
You once said you intended to skip over my comments. I suggest you listen to yourself, or I'll continue to point out your High Faluting Bullshit.
Steve
As far as the "Grow Up" comment.
Tom Robbins said, "When they tell you to Shut Up! They're really telling you to Stop Talking. "When they tell you to Grow Up they're really telling you to Stop Growing.
Reach a nice level plateau and stay there, and be mature. Immaturity is a sign of growing up, and growing up is a sign of being alive, and alive is a dying art".
Steve
Steve,
Don't you think the Dems all across the nation would have done it for "them" if we could?
Look what it has cost us?
Posted by highserenity on February 17, 2008 at 07:48 PM
Serenity,
I was talking about fixing the Primary Calendar. That's the problem, and look what it has cost us?
Are we going to continue to give Independants in New Hampshire a bigger voice in selecting our nominee, then Democrats in Florida and California?
That's the problem I'm talking about fixing.
Steve
Serenity,
I was talking about fixing the Primary Calendar. That's the problem, and look what it has cost us?
-------just got back
oops sorry my bad
I thought the Primary Calendar was fixed
I thought that the agreement was signed off on by all state democrat reps
then there were some who decided to change the calendar, not only without agreement from all states,(the democratic way) all states were told if they change the calendar without agreement, they would not have delegates.
we chose to not change our date on the calendar because we could not accept not having deligates.
i thought the candidates even signed off on the agreement that if any states broke the agreement they would agree no delegates for that state were to be seated, (except the supers, of course 0
Serenity,
I was talking about fixing the Primary Calendar. That's the problem, and look what it has cost us?
-------just got back
oops sorry my bad
I thought the Primary Calendar was fixed
Serenity,
I don't think it's fixed. I think it's terribly broken. We started in Iowa, with 8 democratic candidate. By February 4, two were left.
Less then 400,000 thousand votes were cast by the time New Hampshire had finished its primary. The independants in New Hampshire, had more to say about who our candidate is, then democrats around the country.
The DNC's approved calendar, is a travisty.
IMHO,
Steve
:-) IMHO
We can't attempt to fix it after the process has begun, without agreement from all affected. that is BEFORE next time.
and yes
I guess evidenced by this mess, it clearly needs fixing. But not unilaterally when others have agreed to play by the rules (even if they need fixing)
and I was clearly talking about Florida when I was spouting FIX IT
oops
when I said I thought the Primary Calendar was already fixed
i meant
fixed = set = agreed to
i didn't mean fixed as in broken
as you did
i think that is where we got off
Steve,
a good example of the value of vocabulary
and the filters that we have as we listen
IMHO
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