Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say
By Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 9, 2007; A01

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html

I vowed that I would end all my messages with this epigram from now on.

Clearly no one knows what leadership has gone undiscovered in women of all races, and in black and other minority men. Gloria Steinem

hope23 you are calling on me to START articulating what is at stake and that we need to UNITE?
Please go back and read my posts---even just today's It is exactly what I have been doing while you weren't here.

could you answer my original question, that I wrote right here, at the very beginning of the afternoon string, and at the end of the morning string about voter debaunkles and fraud that threatens THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY today as it has for the last 7 years?????????

It seems to me that you "pop on" once in a while and address someone without even bothering to "catch up" with what that person has said.

We had this discussion once before when you accused me of doing nothing on this site since I have been here except attacking Hillary, when that was about as far from the truth as you could get ---and then I felt in a position that I had to prove it, which I did.

It is very angering to have someone constantly using the attack, therefore put your opponent in a defend mode. I am very glad that at least one of the candidates for President of the United States is a lot better at sidestepping this than I am.

Of course, if the goal is to anger, then------

Wasted time.
I am done

Posted by highserenity on March 13, 2008 at 07:10 PM

hope23

I wish I could say at this point, absolutely to your question will I support HRC if she is the nominee. Today my answer is no. I've been through this cycle before. After NH and SC, I said hell no I won't vote for her. Then things calmed down and I thought if she's the nominee, I can support her. However, given recent events I'm back to hell no at the moment. It all depends on how she garners the nomination if it's fair "yes" if by foul, probably not.

One of the things that's a major concern for me is whether I feel comfortable that the person I'm voting for is the person I'm going to get.

In 1992, I liked HRC--not WJC although he was more popular with the public than HRC was. He was not my first choice, I had concerns about the adultery.

I got over my reservations and voted for him twice. When the lewinsky thing broke, I regretted my voted. I only began to miss him because bush2 was so bad. Like many with nostalgia, HRC's candidacy was an opportunity to get back to some of the good economic times of the 90s but I didn't want the poisonous politics. Enter Barack Obama . . . and the rest is history.

Honestly, I am angry. I know a conservative court won't be good for my daughter's reproductive freedom. I now a conservative congress will not be good for the causes I believe in. But at this moment, I honestly don't care. I don't believe Dems who would say such things have my best interests at heart. After all, WJC's policies had an adverse effect on African Americans.

I'd like to get back to the place where I feel that this is a space to build unity. At present I find it a place to come in and push back against those who don't see the primary as an opportunity for us to select our standard bearer but who see it as a zero-sum game which means they have to trash Obama.

I'm blinded by my need to support him and defend him by any means necessary.

So who knows how I will feel once the dust settles. How I feel about a potential HRC nomination has everything to do with how she conducts her campaign and whether or not she can craft a message that makes all of me feel like a valued participant. But remember if I come over to support her, I'm only one person.

Clearly no one knows what leadership has gone undiscovered in women of all races, and in black and other minority men. Gloria Steinem

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI continued in 2006 to badly mishandle letters that it uses to obtain personal records without a court order, according to a Justice Department report released Thursday.

Clearly no one knows what leadership has gone undiscovered in women of all races, and in black and other minority men. Gloria Steinem

I agree with Lanny Davis.

except for the put their arms around each other moment. Whether that will happen is yet to be seen.

Clearly no one knows what leadership has gone undiscovered in women of all races, and in black and other minority men. Gloria Steinem

Evening all good Dems,

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

I AM VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE WAY OUR APPOINTED GOVERNMENT IS RUNNING THE COUNTRY INTO THE GROUND. iT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE. LET'S DO IT. IT IS OUR RIGHT AND IT IS OUR DUTY.

Evening all good Dems,

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

I AM VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE WAY OUR APPOINTED GOVERNMENT IS RUNNING THE COUNTRY INTO THE GROUND. iT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE. LET'S DO IT. IT IS OUR RIGHT AND IT IS OUR DUTY.

Good evening all, how is everyone doing tonight?

Florida Democratic leaders who support Hillary have now joined with Obama is stating that a mail-in vote in Florida could bring more problems than not. To head off another disaster that NOT being prepared to handle a mail-in vote would bring, they are coming up with a new proposal.

so---at least we now know that the mail-in ballot idea for Florida is off the table. whew

Now what? this is at least a move forward
me thinks:-)

Olbermann is on----bbl

Sorry for the double post.

President Asshole is running our country into the ground. The Dollar is in free fall and oil is rising exponentially. This bushit has to end now.

President Asshole must be impeached along with Vice President Asshole.

Posted by Johne on March 13, 2008 at 08:00 PM

Good evening John. Nothing new, the criminals are still in charge.....John Boy.....

Hillary may win Penn but it may be a lot closer than some of the pundits think and Obama should win the remaining 9 states. The fat lady is warming up.

President Asshole is unilaterally and illegally imposing sanctions on Belarus. Who the F**K does this bastard think he is. He is an arrogant piece of dog shit.

Russia's Izvestia reports:

"Belarussian Foreign Ministry contends that the actions of the United States are in violation of a UN General Assembly resolution 62/183, which states that "no nation can either use or encourage the use of unilateral economic, political action, or any other type of measures to achieve their subjugation another state in the exercise of its sovereign rights."

bush is unilaterally and illegaly imposing sanctions on Belarus

bush is interfering in another sovereign nation and should be told to stick it up his ass. I am sick of this putrid piece of dogshit calling himself a human being. He is a TOTAL ASSHOLE.

I love Keith Olberman ... MSNBC beats the hell out of CNN

15 US Troops Killed Since Sunday;

Bloomberg New Service looks at McCain’s foreign policy record and finds him more hawkish than Bush on China, Russia and Iran. More hawkish than Bush? Does that phrase actually exist in the English language?

From CNN website:

Spitzer doesn’t have a plea bargain, though it’s believed that he’s trying very hard to get one. Based on the likely charges, one expert tells Bloomberg radio that it “seems unlikely” that Spitzer will spend any time in prison.

Sources: Lawyers for Spitzer negotiate possible plea deal

BY ROBERT E. KESSLER | robert.kessler@newsday.com
5:32 PM EDT, March 11, 2008

ALBANY - Lawyers for Gov. Eliot Spitzer are negotiating a possible plea deal with federal prosectuors stemming from his alleged involvement with a prostitution ring, sources said.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stbarg0312,0,7065224.story

Because I am in California, we don't get all the crap ads that many other states do, but I have been repeatedly getting these very expensive looking ads that appear to be bought by the white house to promote bush's FEAR/HATE/BIGOTRY and in particular on the FISA (protect the telecoms) and ATTACKS Pelosi from every possible angle.

I was finally able to read the tiny print at the bottom that quickly flashed at the end who was responsible for this ad.

They claim to be bipartison and therefore valid ?

I looked them up and felt a need to post it here.

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/biographies/biographies.htm

Posted by Cactusjacky on March 13, 2008 at 08:44 PM

You need "a good spring cleaning"..May I suggest a 4 inch fire hose?

Poor, poor Clinton camp. They lose again. Obama was just awarded two more delegates in IL, because Clinton couldn't reach at least 15% in two precincts.

Tick, tick, tick, the time for the Clinton camp is running out.

65%, 65%, 65%.

That number is getting more and more scarey for the Clintonites.

That's what Hillary Clinton MUST have in all of the remaining primaries.

No wonder they are just starting to make up sh**.

Sorry, that's not true. I reject and denounce that.

They didn't JUST start.

HILLARY, STOP THE INSANITY!

You, along and your surrogates, have crossed the line in your verbal attacks on Obama. Using plays straight out of the Rove play book, you run the serious risk of destroying the Democratic Party's chances of regaining the White House -- all because of your apparent believe that this pre-season was to have been a coronation.

Well, I hate to break this to you, but the people have a say in the matter too!

Your growing attacks against your own Democratic opponent make it impossible for you to be elected EVEN if you were to win the Party nomination. How is it that you don't understand this reality? Too many people, myself included, will simply sit out this election if forced to.

The Clinton legacy stands in the balance. So too does the Democratic Party's chances of victory in November.

And this is all so sad. Had you run a campaign highlighting the promise of the first woman president and the change our nation would have experienced under your leadership -- and spoken to the dramatic departure America would have taken after 8 years of Bush's incompetence, you would have won this nomination handily. Instead, you have run a typical "take no prisoner" political campaign that leaves many of us holding our noses.

This is for Veneita re:
........gloria steinem, geraldine ferraro and all those other [white] women who believe [white] women have been disadvantaged in politics types. There have been 170 women who have served in Congress......... March 13 8:49 AM
~~~~~
I appreciate your information and it gives one pause.
{{however}}

i don't know, does {} mean whisper, a quiet voice ???? anyway, that's what i'm trying to convey.

go to the following:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/08s0006.pdf
To my way of thinking, your numbers should be placed in the context of these numbers.
I'm referring to the total population of "White" in proportion to the total population of "Black or African American". I think that is a more realistic view.
I apologize for my lack of skills both on the computer and on the web. I know where I wanted to go, I'm just not very adept at getting there. Do you "see" what I'm saying?

President Asshole must be impeached along with Vice President Asshole.
Posted by Johne

Impeachment will never happen. Only a fool chases rainbows.

What lies ahead for the democrat party is destruction from within. Political in-fighting, the hallmark of the party, will come to an ugly head at the convention. Hillary Clinton will never allow this one and only chance for her candidacy to slip away to an upstart nobody. Oh, how the gloves will come off.

Hillary will take the nomination away from Obama and the outrage that this will cause will follow her to the election. Like a great stone it will sink her.

U.S. held Yemeni in secret jails for years: Amnesty

LONDON (Reuters) - The running of secret CIA prisons for terrorism suspects makes a mockery of international law, Amnesty International said on Friday in a case study of a Yemeni man who was held incommunicado for more than 2-1/2 years.

The human rights group said Khaled al-Maqtari's case shed new light on "the cruelty and illegality of the CIA program of secret detentions and forced disappearances".

It said he suffered multiple forms of torture and ill-treatment during an odyssey which began with his capture in Iraq in 2004 and led him, via Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, to secret U.S. jails in Afghanistan and another unknown location, possibly in eastern Europe.

Link

Have can the White House have secrets from Congress, who is responsible by the Constitution for protected us from Executive branch abuse. With the White House wrongly declaring itself exempt from Congress and the Supreme Court oversight with this immunity against accountability that leaves them Free to redefine all our laws in terms they apply choosing what to enforce and what to ignore. Like safety programs that they destroyed, so that Corporations had no oversight.

So some in Congress were aware of waterboarding and therefore are co-conspirators to the CIA breaking International Law, with secret prisons and illegal torture techniques. Was Nancy Pelosi privy to the United States overriding International Law, so as such, can they be tried by the World Court, like so many that thought they were above the law.

Can the White House choose on their own, who to respond to in Congress and the Courts, or does Congress appoint these point guard as they should. It seems there is this Royal group who runs in secrecy that "We the people" need not know anything. They need to be weeded out so the "Truth " is heard over Bush "Lies."

Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman makes it bi-partisan?

Why is Lieberman still allowed to be called a
Democrate. I have the same viseral reaction to that man that I do Bush.

Posted by highserenity on March 13, 2008 at 09:01 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Senator Lieberman also indicated, “…there is something profoundly wrong—something that should trouble all of us—when we have elected Democratic officials who seem more worried about how the Bush administration might respond to Iran’s murder of our troops, than about the fact that Iran is murdering our troops.

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/research_topics/research_topics_show.htm?doc_id=579575&attrib_id=7684

Veneita,
Earlier, you said that your great-grandmother was the daughter of slaves. Have you been able to trace your ancestry back very far? I respectfully ask because I think it's interesting. Oral, family histories are facinating. (All of my great-grandparents lived in Eastern Europe and my knowlege stops at Ellis Island.)

I wish I could say at this point, absolutely to your question will I support HRC if she is the nominee. Today my answer is no. I've been through this cycle before. After NH and SC, I said hell no I won't vote for her. Then things calmed down and I thought if she's the nominee, I can support her. However, given recent events I'm back to hell no at the moment. It all depends on how she garners the nomination if it's fair "yes" if by foul, probably not.

Posted by Veneita on March 13, 2008 at 07:07 PM

I agree with you completely. I've also changed my mind about Hillary throughout our primaries. I wish she wouldn't have used race, gender, fear and personal attacks against my candidate of choice. She's behaved a lot like the Republicans have behaved. She's been very Machiavellian and demagogic during the last few weeks. I was ready to give her my vote before the ringing phone add and the latest racially-charged tirades.

I believe Al Gore referred to this type of political The policies that end up being implemented are a direct result of the tone of our political discourse and our political discourse is no longer based on reason. It's based on ridiculous nonsense. To me, until three weeks ago, I was so proud of both our candidates. Neither has had it easy.

As a white guy, I've benefited from biases that exist in our society. I've had an easier time as a white guy than I would have had if I were a woman or a minority. In saying this, I'm not apologizing because my carreer has been easier than others have had it. I don't think my life should be harder, rather, I think things should be made better for non-white guys. Barack Obama would be remarkable no matter what his background was. When I listen to him, I'm simply amazed. If he were a white guy, I think he'd already have the nomination wrapped up and he'd be up 20 points in the polls. The fact he is an African American with the name Barack Obama and, if he wins the nomination, he will win it all is simply amazing. I hope to god he does win it all. It'd make me very proud of our society, and he'd be a truly AWESOME President, given the adversity he's had to overcome to make it this far!

Until three weeks ago I felt the same way about Hillary Clinton. Then, all of a sudden, she started acting like George W. Bush. I hope she stops the nonsense. I would like to believe in her again, but throughout this process, she's made me incredibly angry.

yes, I wish we could boot Leiberman from the party. And Zell, omg, I'd like to punch him in the face. POW!

wish I could say at this point, absolutely to your question will I support HRC if she is the nominee. Today my answer is no. I've been through this cycle before. After NH and SC, I said hell no I won't vote for her. Then things calmed down and I thought if she's the nominee, I can support her. However, given recent events I'm back to hell no at the moment. It all depends on how she garners the nomination if it's fair "yes" if by foul, probably not.

Posted by Veneita on March 13, 2008 at 07:07 PM

I agree with you completely. I've also changed my mind about Hillary throughout our primaries. I wish she wouldn't have used race, gender, fear and personal attacks against my candidate of choice. She's behaved a lot like the Republicans have behaved. She's been very Machiavellian and demagogic during the last few weeks. I was ready to give her my vote before the ringing phone add and the latest racially-charged tirades.

I believe Al Gore referred to this type of political discourse as an assault on reason. The policies that end up being implemented are a direct result of the tone of our political discourse and our political discourse is no longer based on reason. It's based on ridiculous nonsense (fear, racially based attacks, etc.). To me, until three weeks ago, I was so proud of both our candidates. Let's face it, 43 white guys have been President. Neither of our candidates has had it easy.

As a white guy, I've benefited from biases that exist in our society. I've had an easier time as a white guy than I would have had if I were a woman or a minority. In saying this, I'm not apologizing because I've had an easier time with my carreer than others have had it. I don't think my life should be harder, rather, I think things should be made better for non-white guys. We should give ALL PEOPLE a chance and give all people a chance to lead (regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation, gender, any other characteristic that is NOT relevant in evaluating someone's merits.)

Barack Obama would be remarkable no matter what his background was. When I listen to him, I'm simply amazed. If he were a white guy, I think he'd already have the nomination wrapped up and he'd be up 20 points in the polls. The fact he is an African American with the name Barack Obama and, if he wins the nomination, he could win it all is simply amazing. I hope to god he does win it all. It'd make me very proud of our society, and he'd be a truly AWESOME President, given the adversity he's had to overcome to make it this far!

Until three weeks ago I felt the same way about Hillary Clinton. Then, all of a sudden, she started acting like George W. Bush. I hope she stops the nonsense. I would like to believe in her again, but throughout this process, she's made me incredibly angry.

I love Keith Olberman ... MSNBC beats the hell out of CNN

Posted by PeanutButterJellyGirl on March 13, 2008 at 08:35 PM

I've been watching him for a good while. I'm also a major fan of his. He tells it like it is.

Ten Reasons to Impeach george bush and dick cheney

1. Violating the United Nations Charter by launching an illegal "War of Aggression" against Iraq without cause, using fraud to sell
the war to Congress and the public, misusing government funds to begin bombing without Congressional authorization, and
subjecting our military personnel to unnecessary harm, debilitating injuries, and deaths.

2. Violating U.S. and international law by authorizing the torture of thousands of captives, resulting in dozens of deaths, and
keeping prisoners hidden from the International Committee of the Red Cross.

3. Violating the Constitution by arbitrarily detaining Americans, legal residents, and non-Americans, without due process,
without charge, and without access to counsel.

4. Violating the Geneva Conventions by targeting civilians, journalists, hospitals, and ambulances, and using illegal weapons,
including white phosphorous, depleted uranium, and a new type of napalm.

5. Violating U.S. law and the Constitution through widespread wiretapping of the phone calls and emails of Americans without a warrant.

6. Violating the Constitution by using "signing statements" to defy hundreds of laws passed by Congress.

7. Violating U.S. and state law by obstructing honest elections in 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006.

8. Violating U.S. law by using paid propaganda and disinformation, selectively and misleadingly leaking classified information, and exposing
the identity of a covert CIA operative working on sensitive WMD proliferation for political retribution.

9. Subverting the Constitution and abusing Presidential power by asserting a "Unitary Executive Theory" giving unlimited powers to the
President, by obstructing efforts by Congress and the Courts to review and restrict Presidential actions, and by promoting and signing
legislation negating the Bill of Rights and the Writ of Habeas Corpus.

10. Gross negligence in failing to assist New Orleans residents after Hurricane Katrina, in ignoring urgent warnings of an Al Qaeda
attack prior to Sept. 11, 2001, and in increasing air pollution causing global warming.

Kev If he were a white guy, I think he'd already have the nomination wrapped up and he'd be up 20 points in the polls. The fact he is an African American with the name Barack Obama and, if he wins the nomination, he will win it all is simply amazing.

I absolutely agree, and could not articulate it so simply.

I would like to add something that has been in the back of my mind--
If Barack was a white man, Hillary would not be able to find it within herself to attack him, fairly or un-fairly.
She might be able to do it on fact, with a little grin and shrug, (like what's a woman supposed to do?")
But coming from a woman who has been watching her a long time, she might have been unable (within her own body) to go AFTER a white man. IMHO
I know I didn't say it quite right.

I feel that like John McCain is still trying to please his father, (look up his history)
Hillary also has her white males that she craves approval from.
I may be wrong, and am not sharing these feelings to start a debate.
I am sure that Barack has those he hopes to have approval from also.

So there.

Hillary may win Penn but it may be a lot closer than some of the pundits think and Obama should win the remaining 9 states. The fat lady is warming up.

Posted by goodfoe on March 13, 2008 at 08:26 PM

I'm an Obama supporter who, until a week ago was preaching unity no matter who the nominee was...
then, last week, I finally became so angry with the Clintons' tactics, I started railing against Hillary...

Now, I'm calming down a bit... I hope if she wins, she does it without resorting to additional disgusting tactics. I'd like to feel like I once did about her again... This has been a horrible primary season...

As a Party, we shouldn't have run both these candidates against each other like this. I don't know how we could have avoided it, but we should have tried. I don't think this has been fun for any one in our Party.

I too hope that Obama wraps this thing up, but I highly doubt he will win here in Pennsylvania. I also doubt he will win all of the remaining contests. I suspect the remaining states will be split between the two candidates, just as the previous contests have been and that the acrimony will continue, but I hope you're right, that I am wrong, and that it will be over soon with Obama winning it.

Regardless of who wins this thing, I also sincerely hope that Bill and Hillary start acting like the people I remember before this primary season started... I'd much rather view them in a positive light, but that's been really hard lately...

"As a white guy, I've benefited from biases that exist in our society. I've had an easier time as a white guy than I would have had if I were...." Posted by Kev on March 13, 2008 at 09:28 PM
~~~~~
That's a good idea, Kev, for us to speak up about the breaks some of us have been given. I'm a white female. In 1976 when I was 24, I got a good paying job with benefits in an auto factory because of legislation that required the hiring of minorities and women. I'm thankful for that chance to get out of what was basically poverty.

Posted by highserenity on March 13, 2008 at 09:48 PM
~~~~
I say, let her loose on those white, Republican males that have been crucifying her for the past 16 years. I think they are afraid of her.

hoipolloi
yea when will that happen?

If she would do that NOW, she would get huge amounts of support, both from those that are her groupies and from those who are not.

What is she waiting for?

God know that 80% of the citizens of the United States have been damaged by Republican Males, not to the extent that Hillary and Bill were in the 90's, but enough to jump on that bandwagon with much passion.

I don't believe that Barack could do this as easily and get by with it.
I am not sure why, it is just a feeling.

Thats what I don't understand about you liberal PATRIOTS. You say you support the gay agenda, but the first cut down you can think of is to call someone a "fag", you people are weird.

Posted by 7867 on March 13, 2008 at 04:43 PM

Nobody called anybody a "fag" as you said. It was merely a comment about the hypocrisy of the holier-than-thou crowd. Like the people who were so outspoken against Bill Clinton's bad judgment, most all of them were doing the same thing. Considering how holy-roller coulter and dr. laura are, they fit the type. Almost EVERYTHING they say is hypocritical.

I think we could call it the "Ted Haggard syndrome." "All the gay sinners are going to hell. No, I don't recall having a meth-fueled gay sex party with a male prostitute I met on-line. I'm a CHRISTIAN!" blah, blah, blah.

We really don't care what people's sexual preference is, unlike MOST of the Republicans, like yourself. It's America, and that's their business. So don't try to spin this and act like we are homophobic. We're just sick of hearing you far less-than-perfect humans trying to tell us about what is right and moral.

We Democrats don't you need Republicans trying to legislate morality because they have NO CLAIM to morality, or the moral high ground. In fact, we see the Republicans as the most morally bankrupt group of people to ever walk. So take your tax-cuts for the rich, and your labor abusing legislation and go straight to hell.

"The road to hell is paved with Republicans."
~ a bumpsticker on our state party's bb.

Good evening all you fine Democrats.
How you all be?

Good evening, all.

So I see tonight the media is slaming that minister at Obama's church because he's celebrating his blackness.

Ferraro was slammed yesterday for celebrating her whiteness.

Why can't we get an American Indian into this race and we can slam he/she for celebrating their redness/bronzeness?

What does any of this have to do with whether a person should be president? I smell a corporate media being pushed by the GOP to make it an issue.

FDT,

You consistantly do that. You report things, as fact, and they are not facts. Yesterday, you reported that Governor Spitzer had resigned, as part of a plea agreement.

The day before yesterday, I told you, the truth. Governor Spitzer has not agreed to a plea bargain. Not as a part of his resignation or anything else. So I asked you to sight your sources. You said, "NBC, ABC, CDS, CNN, & MSNBC". I told you, the pundants talk about it, but, Governor Spitzer wouldn't enter into a plea bargain, unless and until he is charged.

It's a day and a half later, and your statement is still not based on any facts.

Also Wednesday, the U.S. attorney for the southern district of New York, Michael J. Garcia, responded to speculation that Spitzer might have been trying to use his resignation as a bargaining chip with federal prosecutors. Garcia said in a statement: "There is no agreement between this office and Gov. Eliot Spitzer relating to his resignation or any other matter."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-spitzer13mar13,1,2994334.story

I continue to make a simple request of you. Stop, stating something is a fact, because you read or heard someone say, they "believed" something. As opposed to hearing someone stating a fact.

No matter what you "believe", the world is round, and the US Attorney and Governor Spitzer, have not entered into a plea bargain.

If you keep this argument going, it may become true, someday, but for now, you are wrong.

You're a smart person, you don't have to resort to these kind of tactics, to make an argument.

Steve

Posted by highserenity on March 13, 2008 at 09:48 PM

Barack Obama earned my whole-hearted approval by showing the utter tenacity and strength of his character. He maintained his self control when I lost my own as a SPECTATOR... that's what I see in Barack Obama. When I was foaming at the mouth, just watching the nonsense, he was completely calm (my wife has a similar approach to stressful situations, amazing).

I used to believe Hillary Clinton had this trait as well, but since she has been resorting to “politics as usual,” as opposed to selling her own merits, it actually caused me to lose respect of her and to disapprove of her.

The Clintons brought me into politics. I want to view them in the same manner I once did. This can only happen if their tactics change in the coming weeks. Their tactics must change dramatically. We've already had eight years dominated by the politics of fear instead of the politics of reason. We've already had eight years of a commander-in-chief acting like a demagogue-in-chief. We need to change the way we do business, in addition to changing our business. Hillary Clinton needs to realize this. Because I've had time to calm down and think, I'm no longer as angry as I was relative to Hillary Clinton. As a Democrat, the policies I hope to accomplish, the ends I hope our Party achieves, are the same as Hillary Clinton. But to me, there can be a point at which our politics have become so disgusting and repugnant, that the ends no longer justify the means. I hope she is able to reassess her tactics with the dismissal of Geraldine Ferraro. It's a chance for her to, at the very least, regain some support for the general election if not for the primary season.

To do this, she has to respect Barack Obama as her equal. Because that is what he is. She has to quit demeaning him as the next "great black hope" or the mere beneficiary of "white-liberal guilt." I'm not supporting Barack Obama because I think it will negate history; rather, I'm supporting Barack Obama because of his amazing abilities and experiences as a fellow human being.

When I hear him speak, I don't hear the voice of a particular race or gender. I hear the voice of an American uniquely suited to help this Country navigate through the challenges with which it is confronted at this time. I see and hear a former President of Harvard's law review. I see and hear a person who has spent decades fighting for those less fortunate than himself. I hear a person who lost both of his parents to untimely causes. I hear in his voice an individual who has already faced and overcome incredible adversity. I hear a person who not only speaks of ethics; rather, I hear an individual who has brought ethical reform to Washington. I see an individual with a passionate but controlled disposition, uniquely suited to circumspectly deal with a hostile world as Commander-in-Chief.

Posted by Chicago on March 13, 2008 at 10:36 PM

Hi, Chicago.

I'm doing fine. I've learned more about how internet prostitution works than I ever wanted to but then knowledge is power?

I'd really like to hear more analysis about the economy and what the Fed did yesterday. It's amazes me how little real information about the things that effect our everyday lives the most is ever covered in the press.

Did the Fed bail out the banks? Did they just print more money? I can't see where the money is coming from. Have they taken a loan from the World Bank?

Kev,
Good to see you. You are well spoken and convincing.

Posted by hoipolloi on March 13, 2008 at 10:04 PM

hoipolloi,

That's the biggest kept secret of affirmative action. Women of all colors benefitted far more than men of color.

And it's probably why the Republicans made it one of their top priorities to kill it when they got the super majority.

Glad you got a hand up in an industry that had to be hard to break into if you were not somebody's bother-in-law who was already in the union.

hoipolloi

I am totally clueless what point you're trying to make with those census numbers.

I have been able to trace two branches of my family to one female ancestor born in the early 1800s only because these (great-great-great grandmothers) lived in the home of their children at 1870. I don't know if any of my ancestors lived on holdings large enough that there are other records. Some of the men I thought were my grandfathers may not be according to family lore.

There is an oral history that suggest that my earliest ancestors arrived in Virginia with colonial governor Edmund Andros and he left them behind when he moved on. The lore fits the historical timeline but I have not been able to do any research to confirm.

Posted by SandyH on March 13, 2008 at 10:48 PM

I agree. I have not been watching the news much of late, but this scandal is everywhere. If only we had news sources that valued news as much as value the power of sex to sell copies. That previously was their primary focus. Not so today. If only people were smart enough to tune in to outlets that report news.
We're becoming a faux news society. We have a population in which about 35% STILL believe Sadam was involved in 9/11. Explains why half of the people who voted in 2004 voted for Bush. Lord forgive them, they know not what they do.

Posted by margotb822 on March 13, 2008 at 02:19 PM

You're welcome. I think you're right too. Most don't buy that pandering to patriotism anymore. They kept going to that well, and now they can't drink out it. Even if we do catch bin laden, it won't make people think Iraq was wise.

After the last 16 years, 8 years for Democrats and Republicans, people want to go back to a Democratic Administration. (And it can be argued that most people never wanted Republicans.) But now all the independents know the truth about what and who the Parties represent.

It's so bad for the Republicans that even they have had enough. It's so funny. The trolls are in denial. It looks like all they have is "gay marriage" to pander with. but they can't even go there now. lol. I wonder if someone was trying to make the connection when he says "Sodom Hussian?" LOL.

I think we should make you our poster child for cloning. You're THAT awesome. ;-)

FYI, I'm a white guy supporting Obama because of the content of his character, his judgment and, yes, his experience. He's been an elected official for longer than Hillary Clinton. He accomplished a great deal in the Illinois Senate and, in the short time he spent in the U.S. Senate, he also had some significant accomplishments:

In the first month of the newly Democratic-controlled 110th Congress, Obama worked with Russ Feingold (D–WI) to eliminate gifts of travel on corporate jets by lobbyists to members of Congress and require disclosure of bundled campaign contributions under the "Honest Leadership and Open Government Act", which was signed into law in September 2007.[69] He joined Chuck Schumer (D-NY) in sponsoring S. 453, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections, including fraudulent flyers and automated phone calls, as witnessed in the 2006 midterm elections.[70] Obama's energy initiatives scored pluses and minuses with environmentalists, who welcomed his sponsorship with John McCain (R-AZ) of a climate change bill to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by two-thirds by 2050, but were skeptical of his support for a bill promoting liquefied coal production.[71] Obama also introduced the "Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007", a bill to cap troop levels in Iraq, begin phased redeployment, and remove all combat brigades from Iraq before April 2008.[72]

Later in 2007, Obama sponsored with Kit Bond (R-MO) an amendment to the 2008 Defense Authorization Act adding safeguards for personality disorder military discharges, and calling for a review by the Government Accountability Office following reports that the procedure had been used inappropriately to reduce government costs. He sponsored the "Iran Sanctions Enabling Act" supporting divestment of state pension funds from Iran's oil and gas industry, and joined Chuck Hagel (R-NE) in introducing legislation to reduce risks of nuclear terrorism. A provision from the Obama-Hagel bill was passed by Congress in December 2007 as an amendment to the State-Foreign Operations appropriations bill. Obama also sponsored a Senate amendment to the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) to provide one year of job protection for family members caring for soldiers with combat-related injuries. After passing both houses of Congress with bipartisan majorities, SCHIP was vetoed by President Bush in early October 2007, a move Obama said "shows a callousness of priorities that is offensive to the ideals we hold as Americans."

This is pretty significant considering the GOP dominated the Senate for much of the time he was there. In addition, prior to becoming President, Abraham Lincoln didn't have much experience, but due to his unflappable demeanor, his ability to keep his cool in the face of immense stress and his ability to inspire others, he was one of the greatest presidents this nation has ever seen.

Posted by Kev on March 12, 2008 at 10:36 PM

Kev,

You wrote this last night, and I was touched by your words. I thought to myself, "self, this guy is doing it right. Such a wonderful and positive message.

I wish you would continue to preach the positive aspects of the campaign, like you did last night. Engaging in the rhetoric of negativity, cannot benefit our party or our candidates. I hope you focus your talents more like last night in the future.

Steve

"You've got to accentuate the positive, Eliminate the negative..." -Johnny Mercer & Harold Arlen

well, here's the rub. subracting delegates won in states safely, likely, and leaning republican obama comes out on top. but looking at state electoral votes in states which are safely, likely, leaning democratic or toss-up clinton comes out on top assuming the candidate who won the primary would also carry the general.

Safely Democratic: California (55) 167 203, Connecticut (7) 26 22, Delaware (3) 9 6, District of Columbia (3) 11 3, Hawaii (4) 14 5, Illinois (21) 104 49, Maine (4) 15 9, Maryland (10) 42 28, Massachusetts (12) 38 55, New York (31) 93 139, Rhode Island (4) 8 12, and Vermont (3) 9 6.
Likely Democratic: Minnesota (10) 48 24, New Hampshire (4) 9 9, New Jersey (15) 48 59, Oregon (7), Washington (11) 53 25 and Wisconsin (10) 42 32.
Leans Democratic: Iowa (7) 16 15, New Mexico (5) 12 14, and Pennsylvania (21).
Toss-Up: Colorado (9) 35 20, Michigan (17) - -, Missouri (11) 36 36, Nevada (5) 13 12, and Ohio (20) 65 74.
Leans Republican: Florida (27) - -, Virginia (13) 54 29.
Likely Republican: Arkansas (6) 8 27 and North Carolina (15).
Safely Republican: Alabama (9) 27 25, Alaska (3) 9 4, Arizona (10) 25 31, Georgia (15) 61 26, Idaho (4) 15 3, Indiana (11), Kansas (6) 23 9, Kentucky (8), Louisiana (9) 34 22, Mississippi (6) 19 14, Montana (3), Nebraska (5) 16 8, North Dakota (3) 8 5, Oklahoma (7) 14 24, South Carolina (8) 25 12, South Dakota (3), Tennessee (11) 29 39, Texas (34) 98 94, Utah (5) 14 9, West Virginia (5) and Wyoming (3) 7 5.

Safely Republican: Obama (424), Clinton ( 330).
Likely Republican: Obama (8), Clinton (27).
Leans Republican: Obama (54), Clinton (29).
Toss-Up: Obama (149), Clinton (142).
Leans Democratic: Obama (28), Clinton (29).
Likely Democratic: Obama (200), Clinton (149).
Safely Democratic: Obama (536), Clinton (537).

Total Delegates: Obama (1399), Clinton (1243).

Total Delegates Minus Safely, Likely, and Leans Republican States:
Obama (913), Clinton (857).

Electoral Votes of Safely, Likely, Leans, and Toss-Up States:
Obama (107), Clinton (142).

so the question of which of our superior candidates is most likely to beat the fascists in november still remains. hopefully they'll work it out before the convention. but in the mean time go easy on each other, reign in their overly zealous supporters, and pound the hell out of mclame.

data from RCP and Rasmussen Reports

Kev you speak for me

and I stay amazed that beyond his oratory skills, anybody who knows how to read, would see the abilities and talents he brings to the table are exactly what this country has been craving.

Although it appears as if it will die down at this point, I don't beleive it,
because if Hillary was campaigning FOR votes in Pennsylvania, she would tone it down, the REAL AND SOFTER Hillary has always given her the bump in votes.

Hillary has shown to me that she is campaigning for votes AGAINST Obama in Pennsylvania.
I believe this may work in Pennsylvania, and I also hope she pays the price down the line.

We'll see.

bye the way, in case anyone is really wondering-----
CALIFORNIA WILL VOTE OVERWHELMINGLY DEMOCRATIC IN NOVEMBER. NO DEMOCRATS WILL BE STAYING HOME FOR THE GENERAL. :-)))))

Sandy
Bush is supposed to speak to Wall Street tomorrow-----like whatever that means.

Young Voters Could Put Obama or Clinton in the White House

By Nikki Schwab Thu Mar 13

Maybe it's because of the compelling candidates. Maybe it's because it's easy to register online, and they've been following the election on Facebook for months now anyway. Or maybe it's just cool.

But young people are actually voting.

Counter to the conventional wisdom that the youngest demographic of voters are among the most apathetic, progress has been made among the "millennials," and voter turnout has solidly increased this primary season. More than 5.7 million voters under the age of 30 have participated in the primaries and caucuses held thus far. That's a 109 percent increase from the last set of presidential primaries, according to Rock the Vote. And these are the primaries, where voter turnout is usually abysmal.

"I think everyone was pretty much expecting an increase...but the size of the increase was pretty surprising," says Peter Levine, director of the Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement...

news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20080313/ts_usnews/youngvoterscouldputobamaorclintoninthewhitehouse

Hell is freezng over? I wonder how much of the current bickering is going to turn off these new voters? Not much probably. They have seen this wedge issue crap going on with the Republicans for decades.

When there is hope and inspiration people respond to it.

That's a good idea, Kev, for us to speak up about the breaks some of us have been given. I'm a white female. In 1976 when I was 24, I got a good paying job with benefits in an auto factory because of legislation that required the hiring of minorities and women. I'm thankful for that chance to get out of what was basically poverty.

Posted by hoipolloi on March 13, 2008 at 10:04 PM

I'm glad you were at least given that bit of help. I wish you would have been given more help from our society, and I'm sorry if you were not given additional help. I'm someone who is willing to pay more taxes if it goes toward ensuring all Americans have a chance to live the American Dream. I think we're making improvements in this regard, but we certainly haven't done enough. I don't come from wealth, but my gender and race definitely helped... and I didn't come from poverty.

No, I was lucky. I'd like to think I would have gotten where I did regardless of these things, but I doubt it. Had I been a minority, or a woman starting my carreer in the 1970's, I highly doubt I would have had the success I have had. Had I not had parents that were actively involved in my life, I doubt I would have been able to do what I have been able to do... we need to help give everyone a chance...

The point of my comment was, I don't think Barack Obama's race or his name have helped him. Unfortunately, I think he has succeeded in spite of them. It shouldn't be this way. We all should be given the same chance. I'm hard-working enough that I think I would have done okay if it were a level playing field, but I don't think I would have gotten into the law school I did, had they had an admissions process that accounted for poverty, as it should have!

Posted by BoilerMan on March 13, 2008 at 11:03 PM

Boilerman,

I beleve voter turnout in the primaries suggests a completely different outcume in November. At least I hope so. The numbers of voters, casting ballots for Democratic candidates, in the primaries, is very heartening.

Steve

ps, Do you really think that Senator Clinton, won't beat Senator McCain in Arkansas?

"S"

All,
It has been nice reading your thoughts tonight. I have not had the opportunity to be on this site in a while. It seems things have settled down a little bit since I was here last; more togetherness, less body-slamming.
Keep up the good work. Our contry is at stake.
G'nite.

Posted by Growingold on March 13, 2008 at 11:00 PM

I'm trying to do a better job of this. I was angry last week. Now that I've had some time to calm down, I decided to re-think what I was doing...

evening kids, i've been laying a bit lower than usual lately so i don't get hit with any bricks being thrown by obamiacs or hillerites...but i did notice this rather remarkable bit of news:

"Crude surges to record $111 as dollar slides" reuters.

also i listened to our new governor speak today and he seemed really great and said some stuff about blind and deaf people i did not know...he said ninety percent of one group is unemployed and seventy percent of the other is unemployed...i am not sure if i have the order correct but i was appalled. he said who knows maybe one of these people could find the cure for cancer if given a chance. governor paterson is legally blind. he also is very liberal, experienced, humble, bright and savvy so i feel better about the situation here in new york. and he is straight outa harlem so all in all it's about as good as one could hope for given the past few days.

good to see the crowd here. see you in the morning.

Posted by highserenity on March 13, 2008 at 11:07 PM

highserenity,

I'm looking for answers not another encore of his latest White House songfest.

Anderson Cooper was saying that all the current controversy over people's remarks isn't really what people would like to hear...that we need to get back to discussing the issues. Then why is he and rest of the media constantly harping on it?

Is Iraq even on their radar? Why isn't there an effective energy or EPA policy to deal with the rising inflation caused by high oil prices? How many more people have lost their health coverage with the recent layoffs?

Anderson, you're part of the problem.

Good night democrats.

trying to catch up..
re:

"Since I am an old white female that has been embroiled in the womens rights movement for longer than you have lived, my guess is that according to your logic, Hillary should be my candidate."
Posted by highserenity on March 13, 2008 at 12:08 AM

and
"I am a white, 58 year old, Anglo woman..."
Posted by highserenity on March 13, 2008 at 12:11 PM
~~~
FYI
I will be 56 in 2 weeks.

Posted by Growingold on March 13, 2008 at 11:10 PM

growing...taking arkansas out of the repug tally still wouldn't give hillary the most delegates. take a look at rasmussen reports for details of how they arrive at their determination of which catagory to place a state.

The dollar is falling as fast as Bush is. The Bush family brought US the Savings and Loan fiasco and King George the Subprime disaster, it seems that they always bring US grieve, Pretty soon we will have to pay in gold to leave the United States for Europe.

Amen people,
We all win if BO wins and we all win if HRC wins.

WE ALL LOSE if McCain wins.

The point of my comment was, I don't think Barack Obama's race or his name have helped him. Unfortunately, I think he has succeeded in spite of them. It shouldn't be this way. We all should be given the same chance. I'm hard-working enough that I think I would have done okay if it were a level playing field, but I don't think I would have gotten into the law school I did, had they had an admissions process that accounted for poverty, as it should have!

Posted by Kev on March 13, 2008 at 11:08 PM

Hmm, before I sign off, I just wanted to clarify that I don't mean AT ALL that it's unfortunate Barack Obama is succeeding. I am obviously thrilled that he has done as well as he has. What I meant was, it's unfortunate the playing field is not yet level in this Country, so that race and gender could be completely irrelevant. They certainly didn't factor into my decision as to which candidate I am supporting. I only hope that we can give Barack Obama this chance.

I believe that in Barack Obama is an American that can actually lead us through these difficult times to a better tomorrow. He's already succeeded against long odds. That's what I meant to say when I made this comment.

Posted by hope23 on March 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM

Can I get an amen!

Steve

night all

We should all agree that NO one is going to change any ones choice. Everyone that spends there time here probably already have a camp. We should respect each other and stop making each other defend our candidate. We should respect each other and begin the dialog of unity. We should find encouragement
from each other, be a force of resolved like minded people who agree that on the "Democratic Party blog" We will not tolerate smearing any democrat.

Posted by gregg on March 13, 2008 at 11:17 PM

gregg,

When there is hope and inspiration, people respond to it.

* * * *

This doesn't have anything to do with gregg, but I'd like to understand...

Why is it worse to take someone across state lines for prostitution than to buy locally? Why is buying sex from an organization like an internet site worse than just buying it off the streets? Why is it worse to have consorted with prostitutes multiple times than just once or twice?

I suppose the Feds like to go after the big fish in organized crime.

But when it comes to these sex crimes, it seems sort of silly to prosecute anybody for taking a train just to conceal some sex toys that Homeland Security wouldn't have even blinked at unless the person was wearing a turban or a burka.

With people dying in the Middle East and people losing their homes in this country, isn't all this ruckus about adult sex scandals pretty ridiculous?

It was reported the other day that one in every four teenage girls in the U.S have a STD. I guess they are picking them up through oral sex which most of these kids think isn't sex since it's not intercourse thanks to propoganda from the Christian Right?

I figure the fall of Western Civilization will come not from sex but from stupidity.

I'm going to read before bed.

Good night, all.

i'm 60 so i get to go to bed first! my best to each of you.

Posted by gregg on March 13, 2008 at 11:48 PM

gotcha beat on that one, gregg. today is my 3 score and fifth bday. have a good night everyone, i'm off, too. see ya next year.

Posted by Kev on March 13, 2008 at 11:08 PM
~~~~
Kev,
Don't worry about me. A good paying job was enough.
The rub is... my white, male son had to deal with "reverse discrimination" perpetrated by a white school administration.
They just made it harder for me to help him 'keep the faith'. (A**H***s!)

Geez, but we are old!

http://www.newsweek.com/id/123085

How can I post a link to the above article?

Ron Paul actually taught me alot about the Federal Researve and Gold. Listening to him made me more interested because I would not believe what he was saying, I would research, and he was right on every time. No spin anywhere on this subject.

The bottom line on this subject is that we are in BIG TROUBLE on so many different levels, starting with how the Federal Researve was formed (it is not a Federal Bank, it is privately owned) right up to the fact that most of the gold that has been entrusted to them is gone. And what is there, doesn't really belong to the USA.

If you really get into this, you will meet the illuminati and people will attack you for being crazy.

Beyond that, what BushCo. in co-ordination with these special people, has done to this country and it's people, is so evil that it is not something I think most of us could wrap our brain around and our bodies would go into "protect" and denial would set in.

Especially watching world trade agreements being made, the rest of the world is getting ready to go to the Euro. then we are done.

There has been the largest shift of wealth from the citizens of a country into the pockets of thier elite the last 10 years than in the history of the world.
Most of it has been obvious in hindsite, with all the back door taxes that go straight into the corps. pockets, but now as you watch the stock mkt. falling, know that they shamed you into investing your money in the market, (to be a responsible citizen, and save for your retirement), and they are now draining that.

If you saw it and kept your little savings in a no interest savings account (FDIC insured, of course) so it would be safe, you have also lost 1/2 of it due to the devaluation of the dollar.

and on and on and on

There are no jobs, they have been shipped overseas, and the ones that couldn't be,
we shipped people in for.

I don't even want to get into our food, air, and water supplies.

So, hang on and support the right people.
Then give them all the help you possibly can, because they are going to need it.

I think the people I listen to believe that we still have a window of opportunity, but it is getting smaller and smaller.

We need to sieze the moment.

Whew, nobody wants to talk about this because it is so depressing and there is no way anymore to put a good spin on it. or look on the bright side.

Our bright side, is that there will soon be a change in power. And with that change, at least we will know what is going on. And being the Americans that we are, if we know what is going on, there can be nothing stopping us from finding the solutions.

happy birthday boilerman! sorry i missed you!

Just poking my head in here...

A little distressing to see the anti-Hillary posts because half the Dems like her, especially older working women who are poor, as they feel like she has the experience to help them. HALF THE DEMS! so it's a mistake to diss those people, I think.

I don't personally think there's anything wrong with her exposing Senator Obama's weaknesses. That's politics. She's a fighter and a survivor. She survived her husband's infidelity, and survived all the bias against women in the workplace. She has a lot of strengths, and to just dismiss her because she's going on the attack...well, that's politics, in my opinion.

Race is a part of this. If Obama was a "white guy" he would not be considered, not with only two years as a junior senator. If he had been a governor or something for 4 years and we knew him better, he'd have a better chance. Also, how can you think we should leave race out of it when African-American voters were overwhelmingly for Hillary two months ago, but once they saw a black man had a chance, they switched their votes? Bill Clinton was admired in the black community...no more. It's not because Hillary is divisive, it's because they are voting for one of their own. That is also why many women vote for Hillary. It's why white men will vote for McCain. There's nothing wrong with it, and unfortunately you can complain and rant about it but it is human nature to support one of your own.

How about the black superdelegates who flip-flopped? They were for Hillary, and now they're for Obama, and many admit they were pressured by aggressive Obama supporters to support one of their own. So who's doing the attacking? Everyone is afraid to say the truth for fear of being labeled "racist", and that's a sad state of affairs.

If Obama was a "white guy" he would not be considered, not with only two years as a junior senator.

uh RSP, what do you call John Edwards but a white guy?

Posted by gregg on March 13, 2008 at 11:48 PM i'm 60 so i get to go to bed first! my best to each of you.

I started going backwards at 50 so I'm not sure where I'm at - but don't let Lizzy put any silly thoughts in your head about doing something that gets me put in jail when we meet up on my birthday Saturday.

I can tell you that blacks that voted might have been for Hillary before Barack and some still are but there were legions of blacks that did not participate in the process until Barack. I know this first hand. For that I am grateful. And I know Republicans who are voting for Obama. I know of not one Republican who would vote for Hillary.

Pelosi: No dice on dream ticket - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Clinton has basically ruled out the possibility [of being Clinton's running mate] by suggesting that Republican John McCain is more ready to be commander-in-chief than Obama.

Hillary's Adventures Abroad

We (AT FACTCHECK.ORG) find some exaggerations in Clinton's claims of foreign policy experience.

On March 6 Hillary Clinton claimed that, unlike Barack Obama, she and likely Republican nominee John McCain have "cross[ed] the commander-in-chief threshold." In a CNN interview the day before, Clinton had listed five foreign policy accomplishments. We can't determine how much behind-the-scenes work Clinton did while first lady, and she certainly took an active interest in foreign policy when her husband was president. Moreover, her time as first lady plus her longer Senate career do give Clinton more foreign policy experience than Obama. But the public record of her actions shows that many of Clinton's foreign policy claims are exaggerated.

* Clinton claims to have "negotiated open borders" in Macedonia to fleeing Kosovar refugees. But the Macedonian border opened a full day before she arrived, and her meetings with Macedonian officials were too brief to allow for much serious negotiating.

* Clinton's activities "helped bring peace to Northern Ireland." Irish officials are divided as to how helpful Clinton's actions were, and key players agree that she was not directly involved in any actual negotiations.

* Clinton has repeatedly referenced her "dangerous" trip to Bosnia. She fails to mention, however, that the Bosnian war had officially ended three months before her visit – or that she made the trip with her 16-year-old daughter and two entertainers.

* Both Bill and Hillary Clinton claim that Hillary privately championed the use of U.S. troops to stop the genocide in Rwanda. That conversation left no public record, however, as U.S. policy was explicitly to stay out of Rwanda, and officials say that the use of U.S. troops was never considered.

* Clinton's tough speech on human rights delivered to a Beijing audience is as advertised, though Clinton herself has been dismissive of speeches that aren't backed by solutions.

Posted by jensaysnotodynasty on March 14, 2008 at 12:50 AM I can tell you that blacks that voted might have been for Hillary before Barack and some still are but there were legions of blacks that did not participate in the process until Barack.

There were lots of new faces at my caucus - more new faces than old faces. We more than doubled our largest turnout and we ran out of ballots twice.

Young people, old people, all colors of people, skinny people, fat people. They all want to make sure that the country moves away from the direction set by this administration.

It was a great sight. Who's playing the race card here? And Why?

Exit polls indicate that race - black and white I quess - as opposed to one democrat racing against another - influenced opinion in only two states.

The discussion only has relevence it seems in a few states and this blog.

John Edwards, the white guy, had years of political experience. JFK had years of political experience, and was raised in a political family by a patriarch extremely active in the Democratic Party. He lived and breathed it. So you can't elevate a man with two years political experience to anything more than that. It's smoke and mirrors, and that's why HALF the Dems are for Hillary. I only capitalize that because it's millions of people who have an opinion, who LIKE Hillary, and believe she has the strength to lead the country and also put up with the bull from the Republicans.

All I'm saying is that we can't disenfranchise half of our party.

Part of Obama's popularity is that he is as anti-Bush as can be. There's nothing wrong with that, but you have to make sure you understand that's a backlash, and to make sure he can withstand all the pressure the Republicans will put on the Democratic candidate.

Good night, all. GregG and I are going to meet up at the Sons of Garabaldi in New York soon and play pinochle and I need to get some sleep so I'm not so tired and catch him when he tries to cheat.

hoipolloi

I am totally clueless what point you're trying to make with those census numbers.

I have been able to trace two branches of my family to one female ancestor born in the early 1800s only because these (great-great-great grandmothers) lived in the home of their children at 1870. I don't know if any of my ancestors lived on holdings large enough that there are other records. Some of the men I thought were my grandfathers may not be according to family lore.

There is an oral history that suggest that my earliest ancestors arrived in Virginia with colonial governor Edmund Andros and he left them behind when he moved on. The lore fits the historical timeline but I have not been able to do any research to confirm.
Posted by Veneita on March 13, 2008 at 10:55 PM
~~~~~~~~~
The census figures show that of a roughly 300,000,000 U.S. population, 198,744,000 are recorded as "White" (not Hispanic or Latino) and 36,690,000 recorded as Black or African American in that same category. What I'm saying is that the ratio is around 199,000,000 (White) to 37,000,000 (Black or African American)= just under 5.4 to 1. So plug that ratio into your numbers. How does it compare?
I will have to go back & do it myself when I get the time. I can't do it before I post this or I will lose what I have typed and I'm no typist. Sorry I didn't do it first.
I'm definitely not saying "be satisfied". I'm just saying if you keep it in this perspective, it's easier to deal with it and avoid the heartburn.
Then again, I might go back, plug in the numbers and have to eat my words. I'll save that for breakfast cause it's getting late.
on other matters..
Do you/your family have any documents from or relating to your ancestors? and did you ever have an opportunity for conversation with your grand or great-grandparents about their history? Do you have any idea where your Virginian ancestors would have come from or about what year that would have been?
My dad was a great story teller and source of info about our family and community. I really miss listening to him. A treasure lost to the ages.
Good night

dors
i'm not playing a race card-whatever that means. i just know that among my dozen black friends and their family that people who hadn't voted in many years DID now because of Obama.

i am not naive enough to think that race or gender issues don't figure into this campaign.

those that use them to divide have to live with themselves and the results of their actions. i am not one of them.

happy birthday to you

i'm out, not sure why i came back at all

p.s. thanks hillary for the most divisive campaign i've ever witnessed.

Posted by jensaysnotodynasty on March 14, 2008 at 01:54 AM
~~~~~
why do you have "snot" in your name?

sorry.....couldn't resist. I would have tried harder if you would have nixed the Hillary bashing.

Your action made the difference.

The New York Times reports that Chairman Silvestre Reyes is going to let the House vote today on a FISA reform bill that does not include telecom immunity.

You made thousands of calls to Rep.