Human Rights Watch dubious about Russian claims of Genocide
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You said: Russian military forces crossed the Georgian border and began assaulting military and civilian targets is (in?) South Ossetia and beyond.
I say: What are you saying? Russia assaulted South Ossetia? S O are Russian! LOL.
What Russia is guilty of doing is responding to Georgia-terrorists killing South Ossetian's in a massacre on Aug 8 and Russia didn NOT target civilians. When Russia bombed Georgian military base and it's arsenal, the stash blew with force that it caused damage to neighboring high rise apartments. Blame Georgia for killing it's own people for stashing arsenal too close to civilian population. Russia targeted the stash, not the people. And sheot happens in war. We targeted 'valuable' targets in Iraq and accidentally blew up restaurants and the high valued targets weren't even there, but women and children died.
Our media is falsely reporting Russia is breaking cease fire by advancing deeper into Georgia. They are allowed to drive around looking for mines on the road that Georgians put there. That was part of the reports earlier, they would be derelict not to ensure the security of people. If you understand the demographics, if Georia explodes the only tunnel in South Ossetia, these people are trapped and can't escape because (Sept-May) the road is closed due to snow. Besides, Georgia agrees to allow Russia to search for unexploded arsenal and contain it. And Georgia knows they screwed up trying to regain South Ossetia in August. This has been tried before.
We need to understand that Georgia is made up off district, then villages within and there will be more wars to come since Iranians dwell there and claim to be part of Iran. Then there's Abkhazia, an even worse situation.
We ARE involved, our mercenaries stirred this pot because Bush wants a fight with Russia and to promote his agenda of pushing democracy world wide. We can't fight 140 million Russians in their territory (like Bush always want to take it to their land)....it won't happen.
NATO will not support Georgia becoming part of the Union until borders are stablized and they quite attacking.
EU will nail Russia for trying to peace keep and reacting to Georgias massacre. Bush and Condi will push EU8 to snub Russia. We have to remember too, that Bush wants a missile shield and what better way to get it, use Georgia as a proxy to fight Russia...evil. We sent money, arsenal mercenaries, and 130 troops to stir the pot.
And if South Ossetians are Russian, why do they speak a form of Farsi?
Russia issued Russian passports to South Ossetians to bolster the claim that they legitimately belong in the Federation. I do think that Ossetia deserve the right to self-determination, but Russia is just trying to make a grab.
You apparently don't even know the make up of this region. I suggest reading Georgian-Ossetia conflict found at wikipedia and study the right side (population and language...etc) then read all links out from there, should answer your questions.
And when someone complained about my usage of the term demographics here, I'm talking about population characteristics as used in government statistics and relationship to what is happening in aggression of Georgian artillery shelling of Tskhinvali and South Ossetians.
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No, I'm a white American. I live in Alaska and work with many beautiful Russians. They are very hard working and intelligent. They are humans and they bleed too.
I'm observing allot of hatred of Russians here and it's unfortunate because we're practicing ethnocentrism, dangerous to our society and thus we fail to capture the facts.
Allowing the Ossetians and Abkhazians (sp?) self-determination is one thing (to which they have some credible historic claim), but this was a pretty transparent attempt at trying to gain further control of the region's energy resources. Besides, Russia doesn't have a history of being a defender of self-determination (see Chechnya).
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That's just CRAZY TALK! What country's government would actually DO that?
Just wait until it's water and not oil that we fight about.
War for oil is bad, and it is also unavoidable. As resources become more limited, more fighting for resources is going to happen. And yea, more rape of the planet to get to the oil in hard to reach places is going to happen too. If not now, then a few years from now.
Sorry, am I being pessimistic?
I think we can figure out where the bias is on this one.
Russia supplies the area with oil, they have plenty of natural gas and petro, mof they're looking to build a pipeline and they have Lake Baikal (untapped). This isn't about oil, it's about a response to a massacre of Russians. This is a hangover from the Soviet Union, there's been wars in this territory forever. Saakashvili raised a stink and got elected, even Georgians dislike him now.
And, I would say its pretty clear that oil is a factor, if not the major factor. Note, the BP pipeline, completely in Georgian territory. You will also note that Russian strongly opposed the location of the pipeline when it was first proposed. If it was strictly an action to protect Ossetians from Georgian hostility, why did the Russians advance beyond the Ossetian border, even when the Georgian forces were in full retreat? And why open the second offensive front in Abkhazia?
If anything, it's our lust for oil and keeping our surpluses for politicians in case some day they need to escape from the hatch:
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Read it and weep.
And you support this?
See what I mean, Anne? Blood for Oil is only bad when the US does it.
"For Moscow, the timing may be right for both Abkhaz peace and a pipeline. Russia has taken a dim view of growing US influence in Georgia. The BTC pipeline, a project that would effectively end Russia’s monopoly on energy transport systems in the Caspian Basin, is a constant reminder of the spreading US presence. Piggybacking its own oil feeds onto BTC -- either directly, or on a parallel track -- could help Russia re-emphasize its own status as a major player in the region.
At the same time, latching onto a pipeline with Georgia is also a matter of protecting Russia’s big-dollar energy trade. The Russian Black Sea port at Novorossiisk is a point of departure for oil of Russian origin, as well as for Kazakhstani oil. But with restrictions now placed on oil tankers traveling through Turkey’s Bosporus Straits, Russia is feeling a need to find additional transit routes, given anticipated increases in volume from Russian and Kazakhstani fields in coming years. Consequently, Turkey’s Mediterranean outlet of Ceyhan beckons."
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Or that they advanced beyond South Ossetia's borders?
"Reuters witnesses saw Russian troops in the key central Georgian town of Gori and outside the western town of Zugdidi. Residents in the Black Sea port of Poti saw a Russian incursion."
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Saakashvili retracted his statement. THEN Russia said they were not going to sign a cease fire until Saakahvili resigned (he's a nut). And I anticipate the next falsehood, that his insistence of resignation would set up for Russia to take over, but Russia already addressed that too, they don't want a take over, they want Georgians to vote the idiot out. Russia proves time and time again they are more civil about freedoms than we give them credit for.
The other thing you got wrong is, there have been Russian peace keepers in South Ossetia for a long time prior to this attack on South Ossetia. We've been there too.
It's apparent you don't understand how Russia is set up with separate territories and presidents residing over them. Also, South Ossetia population is mostly Russian and wants to unite with neighboring North Ossetia. They are a de facto soverignty and that doesn't quite link to
wanting to gain regions energy. South Ossetia did not attack Georgia and then rush around the pipeline, they get their energy from North Ossetia because Georgia cut their electric supply after they voted and won their independence. You're last statement is even more pathetic, not even going to tackle it. No, I will. Russia is there to defend South Ossetia's sovereignty and being massacred for this status, so your wrong in your analysis.
Chechnyan's were apart of the sniper fire on South Ossetians and even American mercenaries there.
You are talking about energy supply to South Ossetia, and I'm talking about the pipeline across southern Ossetia, which was a point of contention with Russia. The pipeline was never intended to serve South O, it links oil fields in Azherbaijan to the Black Sea ( Link ). If you look at the map, there is a reason why Russia wants to keep peacekeepers as far south as Gori! Hint: Its not for a security buffer. Russia, naturally prefers to serve the Baku oil fields with its own pipeline through Russia.
I should also note that I thought, as you did, that Russia's actions were to protect the Ossetians from Georgian aggression. I thought that until Russia continued advancing past South O's borders. The fact that they are tying Saakashvili's resignation to a cease-fire is evidence that they are trying to assert influence there. Why else make it a condition for the cease-fire? There are other ways to contest the election!
Russians did say Georgians should vote him out and that they do not want to interfere and honor Georgians territory and elections.
They are sweeping the area for mines and Saakashvili stated that even on the news YESTERDAY and that he was alright with that. People here are jumping to conclusions that Russia is there for oil, that they don't give a damn about their own blood, that's pathetic.
I have better things to do and can't stress enough to go study rather than engage in arguments here. Not saying you are, just generally speaking.
Yes, one should definitely study before forming strong opinions on an issue, shouldn't they? ;)
I take it you agree with Bush, then, that you looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul?
This territory was apart of Russia at one time, that's why I said it's a hangover of Soviet Union. If South Ossetia wants to reunite with North Ossetia, it's no different than what other regions do.
I don't agree with Bush at all, we shouldn't be there, and shouldn't have paid for 8 military planes to move Georgians from Iraq back to fight in a cease fire. United States actions are inciting more fights and assisting in breaking the cease fire, so don't Even try to pin that sheot on me Arius.
South Ossetia was conquered by Russia. That doesn't make it part of Russia any more than Iraq is part of the United States.
I don't have to pin anything anywhere when you're wearing it on your sleeve.
Official languages of Ossetia is Russian and 90% of them hold passports to Russia. This is even stupid to depute.
Restoring South Ossetia and Abkhazia (a region with a similar separatist movement) to Georgian control has been a goal of Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili since the Rose Revolution.
IF it's his goal to restore it, then it's not
Georgian.
Neighbors are Kabard people, who introduced Islam.
Both ethnicities have had a high level of interaction and high rates of intermarriages.
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2/3 rds of the population of South Ossetia is Ossetian and 25-30% was Georgian.
So, in reality Georgia attacked South Ossetia and it’s own people. Exactly what both sides have reported.
Official languages of Ossetia is Russian and 90% of them hold passports to Russia. This is even stupid to depute.
Restoring South Ossetia and Abkhazia (a region with a similar separatist movement) to Georgian control has been a goal of Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili since the Rose Revolution.
IF it's his goal to restore it, then it's not
Georgian.
Neighbors are Kabard people, who introduced Islam.
Both ethnicities have had a high level of interaction and high rates of intermarriages.
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2/3 rds of the population of South Ossetia is Ossetian and 25-30% was Georgian.
So, in reality Georgia attacked South Ossetia and it’s own people. Exactly what both sides have reported.
IMHO, part, if not most, of the reason Russia invaded Georgia was to prove that NATO and the U.N. would stand around and send diplomats and angry letters as opposed to legitimate aid for the Georgians. The nation of Georgia has been sorely let down by the Bush Administration however, the Georgian government should've known better. I really hope they didn't expect compentency from the Bush Administration.
1. Russia and Georgia have been enemies for centuries. Their hatred of each other is rooted in religion.
2. Both countries are extremely nationalistic.
3. The current president of Georgia campaigned on a platform of government reform AND "full assimilation" of semi-autonomous regions. (He also promised other things he hasn't quite delivered, and amid peaceful protests late last year which the government brutally put down - including attacking human rights activists and journalists, including declaring martial law and closing down the media, he then called a snap election in December which international observers say was faulty), he had Parliament bestow him with almost unlimited power. So whatever you do, don't believe that he is a "good guy").
4. Of course I have a problem with Putin. But it was Saakashvili who screwed up. He thought he would get away with using brute force again to deal with anyone who wouldn't fall in line. In the first instance, he was not counting on Russia being prepared for a counter-attack (Russia was plenty ready - they were obviously on standby - they have been waiting for an excuse, waiting for Saakashvili to deal the first blow - and he played right into their hands). In the second, because of all the rhetoric Bush and McCain and other warhawks have been spewing, I think Saakashvili thought we were actually going to send in the cavalry when he got in over his head. Well, we didn't, and now the guy is dissing us.
The situation should have been mediated long ago, but neither Russia nor Georgia can agree on resolution. Georgia wants those territories to be fully integrated; the people who live there want independence, and Russia wants them to come back into the fold.
Now, there's all this flowering babble about freedom and democracy, but nobody wants these regions to have independence. Because there are dozens of other little semi-autonomous areas all over the region, not to mention the wider world, who all yearn for independence.
No, we aren't about freedom, Russia isn't about freedom, we're about hedgemony. It's no different than in 1804, when the slaves of Haiti ran the French off their island. Nobody wanted to recognize Haiti's sovereignty, because of the precedent it set. Had everybody rallied behind the free Haitians, slaves in Jamaica and Louisiana would get big ideas. Exact same deal here.